An armed citizenry is central to a republic

[Moonshadow]

Is this true? Reading the history of Europe. One of the first edicts Adolf Hitler declaimed was a surrender of almost all private arms in Germany. He feared arms in the hands of the citizen, and rightly so.

It's not right to make of him a margin. He meant to rule Germany, to make it his, and private citizens who might shoot at him and his thugs were out the window.

What does this mean, for us? To me, it means stopping the idiot laws. Noone wants weapons in the hands of children, or mental idiots. Forty years ago this wasn't an issue, and it's time to get back to that ethos.

I own an SKS. When I lived in MA I didn't register it. It was a huge rigamorole just to own this rifle, and I hid from it. Not that I was nefarious in any way, but I didn't like the state taking fingerprints, issuing licenses, for what I saw as natural. Just an interesting carbine of Chinese manufacture I picked up for a buck and a half at a local gun store.

I could have gone to jail for five years because of my recalcitrance. Not that I used the gun, just because I owned it.

I'm sorry, but that's really f###ed up.

One night, evening, Ron and I were out blowing off the last of the ammo I had. We were responsible. Some jamoke called us in, called the cops. They came by, talked to everyone, and we denied it, of course. If the cop had wanted to press it, I'd have been in handcuffs for a long time, because I didn't have the right piece of paper.

The cop, to his credit, winked and went on his way. But he shouldn't have had to. It's a rifle. We were shooting at targets with a good backdrop. We were both reasonably sane and sober adults. Where is the state's responsibility in this?

I don't like licensing.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

"One night, evening, Ron and I were out blowing off the last of the ammo I had. We were responsible. Some jamoke called us in, called the cops. They came by, talked to everyone, and we denied it, of course. If the cop had wanted to press it, I'd have been in handcuffs for a long time, because I didn't have the right piece of paper. "

So, on the one hand you say you're responsible, then you go on to say what you did was against the law. Okay I understand. Just keep all your guns within your own borders.

[jack grebe]

tryin to get those # of posts back up there?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

"I own an SKS. When I lived in MA I didn't register it. It was a huge rigamorole just to own this rifle, and I hid from it. Not that I was nefarious in any way, but I didn't like the state taking fingerprints, issuing licenses, for what I saw as natural. Just an interesting carbine of Chinese manufacture I picked up for a buck and a half at a local gun store.

I could have gone to jail for five years because of my recalcitrance. Not that I used the gun, just because I owned it.

I'm sorry, but that's really f###ed up."


What's really at issue here is your disregard for the law simply because you don't like it. I assume that your state is democratic, so the people elect the government. They don't want you to own that gun easily. You've decided to say f&*k them, I can own what I want, and then you have issue that there may be consequences. You are a perfect example of why gun control is necessary.

[mwybo]

If an armed citizenry is central to a republic at what point is the citizenry justified in taking up arms? What would such conditions look like? Do you think this would ever really happen?

[Moonshadow]

Pete,

The law was ridiculous. That's my point. In order to be firing that carbine lawfully, just a rifle that was fun to shoot, I'd have to have been fingerprinted and get a piece of paper saying it was okay.

Ever the outlaw, I said screw that. Luckily, just across the border in Maine, they have no such scruples.

Why? Would fingerprinting me, registering that gun, keep some poor bastard from dying in South Boston? It's a hot topic these days, because MA legislators are slavering over lax gun laws in Maine.

Bull twaddle. Bad guys will get guns. Mine's not for sale. I haven't shot it, BTW in closing on ten years.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

"The law was ridiculous. That's my point. In order to be firing that carbine lawfully, just a rifle that was fun to shoot, I'd have to be fingerprinted, get a piece of paper saying it's okay."


I think the voters who elected, by majority, the government that instituted that law would beg to differ. You decided, on your own, that it was ridiculous. That isn't democracy. That's individual will.
There is no rule of law in your decision.

[Dan McCosh]

You can see how effective an armed citizenry is in Iraq.

[LeeG]

"It's not right to make of him a margin."

WTF are you saying?

Bull Twaddle?

[Moonshadow]

I said, quite clearly, no bulltwaddle, that it's in the interests of power to take away the right to be armed.

Is that plain enough?

[RichKrough]

A farewell to arms....

http://www.dreamers.com/cisne/img/venus/venus_milo.jpg

[Kim Whitmyre]

"The law was ridiculous. That's my point. In order to be firing that carbine lawfully, just a rifle that was fun to shoot, I'd have to be fingerprinted, get a piece of paper saying it's okay."


I think the voters who elected, by majority, the government that instituted that law would beg to differ. You decided, on your own, that it was ridiculous. That isn't democracy. That's individual will.
There is no rule of law in your decision.


Peter, is there a rule of law in the Bush Regime? Do you see one? :D Democracies can be dumb as a falling rock. I'm staying out of the firearm discussion, but your argument is weak if it is based on "democracy." Particularly as it is practiced in the U.S.A.

[mwybo]

In that case Moonshadow, at what point is it justified for the citizenry to use those arms to resist the interests of power and maintain or restore, as stated in the Second Amendment, "the security of a free state"?

[Moonshadow]

Mybo,

It's always a question.

[Bob Adams]

You can see how effective an armed citizenry is in Iraq.

I know that was a smart ass statement, how about Isreal? Armed citizens there have prevented many terrorist attacks.

[Meerkat]

Oh, Im bein followed by a moonshadow, moonshadow, moonshadow
Leapin and hoppin on a moonshadow, moonshadow, moonshadow

And if I ever lose my hands, lose my plough, lose my land,
Oh if I ever lose my hands, oh if.... I wont have to work no more.
And if I ever lose my eyes, if my colours all run dry,
Yes if I ever lose my eyes, oh if.... I wont have to cry no more.

And if I ever lose my legs, I wont moan, and I wont beg,
Yes if I ever lose my legs, oh if.... I wont have to walk no more.
And if I ever lose my mouth, all my teeth, north and south,
Yes if I ever lose my mouth, oh if.... I wont have to talk...

Did it take long to find me? I asked the faithful light.
Did it take long to find me? and are you gonna stay the night?

[Bob Adams]

That is one of my favorite Cat Stevens tunes...thanks Meer!

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

One thing is for sure about an armed citizenry.... people will get shot at... and that seems to be important.

[Meerkat]

That is one of my favorite Cat Stevens tunes...thanks Meer!Mine too! :)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It's undoubtedly true.
An armed citizenry is VITAL to any banana republic.
Can't have no stinkin' "revolucion" without some guns.

Charlie

"Viva la whoever comes out on top!"

[LeeG]

and armed citizenry that has plastic balls hanging from the rear bumper of their truck is even more protected.

[LeeG]

an armaments industry makes for a busy citizenry

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060627/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_war_spending;_ylt=Aj47v2RdoRyXQlL9fAsD2yms0NUE; _ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[LeeG]

a citizenry blind to shifts in governance gets led by the nose
baaa, baaaa,,I want my gun, baaa, baaa,,the gov't doesn't fear your popgun you fool

http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/060703on_onlineonly01

[Moonshadow]

Once upon a time there arose a great nation. It was the tits, man. They had everything, from beans to roses.

What the men and women of that nation didn't realize was how fragile it was. They allowed the power of the top of the hill to go to their heads. Tippy top, where the air is thin, the footing uncertain.

As with all great nations, it fell. Not in some spectacular tumble, in a slow erosion. As with all great nations.

They overspent, they embraced all manner of diversity that perverted basic understandings. Because they were great, they thought they could weather anything. How wrong! They couldn't, just like all great nations before them.


The idea still lives on, and one day we will make a great nation again.

[LeeG]

Not with ignorant hicks thinking that the right to bear arms will ensure a representative government.

[Mrleft8]

"..... And if I ever lose my mind, all my all my sanity left behind..... And if I ever lose my mind.... I won't have to think no more....."

[Gary E]

What makes you think the "representative government" as it is now represents you?

[Rick Starr]

Thumbs down Moonshadow. You do not get to pick your laws a la carte. Worse, you do not get to pretend you are a responsible citizen and patriot when you are in fact a scoff-law. If ever more restrictive firearms laws and bans are forced down our throats, actions like yours will be cited as justification.

Boo Hiss.

[Moonshadow]

And what would you have done, in my place, Rick? Okay, I'll be fingerprinted like a criminal just for owning a gun. Put me in your registry.

I don't like this encroaching power of the state. Call me bad, but I wouldn't do it. My heart said no, I don't want to sign up. I don't regret it.

[LeeG]

What makes you think the "representative government" as it is now represents you?

it doesn't, it's a shell

[Rick Starr]

I wouldn't have moved to mass, is what.

None of us like this encroaching power of the state. But to stop it, we must act within the law and with a unified voice. By acting illegally on your own you cripple the stand you purport to take, and you lend credance and support to the opposition.

BTW, guessing by the speed with which we've locked horns, I guess you really are Jack. Welcome back, if so.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Anyone who has ever been drafted knows about "the encroaching power of the state". I was not only drafted but, fingerprinted while in basic training. And when I got out some of my neighbors said the FBI came around asking about me and my family. All this was necessary because the Army said it was. I was theirs for two years so there was no sense getting in a snit over it.
To me this was just part of my duty as a citizen.
Of course, I could have not shown up for induction and ended up being fingerprinted on my way to jail.

Charlie

[LeeG]

Chuck, speaking of conscription what do you think about McMasters attempt in Ramadi where most of the Sunni soldiers are choosing to not participate?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/27/africa/web.0627ramadi.php


Officers here said there were about 250 American soldiers involved in the operation, and about 145 Iraqis.

Lt. Col. Raad Niaf Haroosh, the Iraqi battalion commander, said the 145 soldiers represented a fraction of the battalion's usual numbers. He said as many as 500 of his fellow soldiers - most of them Sunni Muslims from Al Jabouri tribe - stayed behind in Mosul rather than fight in Ramadi.

Colonel Raad is a Sunni, as are most of the Iraqi soldiers who made the trip with him. They seemed alert and disciplined as they moved about the area, in contrast to some Iraqi units that have accompanied American soldiers in the past.

He said that many of the Iraqi soldiers who stayed behind feared they would create tribal vendettas if they came to Ramadi and killed other Iraqis.

"They said, 'We don't want fight our own people,' " he said

[geeman]

Thats a phrase that we dont hear much anymore,,,,and thats too bad.I see it in the way the country is discussed in threads here all the time.Too bad we cant get back a little more "Duty as Citizens"

[LeeG]

If GW/Cheney wanted to secure the chaos in Iraq a draft would provide that opportunity.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Lee,
I think trying to cut any kind of deal with a bunch of people who are seeking revenge for what went on during the Crusades is like drawing to an inside straight.
And the dorks in the White House who try to suggest the Iraqis are just plain folks who want what we want have been smoking and joking too much. But, if they are correct, we should just give them some mesquite wood for their B-B-Q's and boogey on out of there.
I would like to make more derisive comments but I get recuring crying jags just thinking about our nation being led by a bunch of guys with heads too big for a hat.

Charlie