idea.... jib club into whisker pole ????

[merlinron]

i have an idea that came to me as i was looking at using a club on my jib. i was going to put the club's pivot point( gooseneck?, what is actually called?... where it pivots at the deck.) on a short slide to be able to tune the jib a bit. then it came to me, on a run you can put the jib on a whisker pole. what if a guy ran a longer track and rigged the slide to be pulled back far enough that the worked as a pole with the pivot, hauled back to just in front of the mast and the club athwart ships, holding the jib clew out. you would have to still un hook the jib sheet and change to a shet with better location, just like using a pole, but there would be no messing around with setting the pole. just change sheets and haul the club pivot back, which would move the jib out. has this ever been tried?... how do you think it would work?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Sounds much too complicated, have you ever taken a close look at R.C. model racing.

http://www.searle-rcy.com/

Take a look at the jib - clever.

[Todd Bradshaw]

That type of system bas been used on real boats to some extent (certain iceboats, like Scooters in particular) for about 100 years and is pretty interesting.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid36/pb89e06b3af3250bbe7441b5ec05ccb2a/fd270cc1.jpg

It should probably be explored more, especially for smallish, single-handers or people having sailing partners that aren't terribly into the whole "jib-trimming thing" and who would rather just sit back and relax.

It does have some limitations though. It is very self-vanging and allows almost no twist in the sail or any kind of simple adjustment that would allow one to induce twist. This is usually fine when sailing close-hauled (iceboats are nearly always sailing close-hauled because of their speed and essentially sailing upwind, even when sailing downwind). Being able to induce a controlled amount of upper-sail twist (upper leech twisting off to leeward and spilling some wind) is one of the better ways to depower the sail in heavy air or gusty conditions and is not possible with such a system. Eased out, the sail will still be the same fairly flat plane of fabric that it is when trimmed-in. You can depower it by easing until it's just streaming, but it tends to be sort of an on-or-off -not much possible between them situation. Clubs can tend to do similar things, but if the tail end of the club can be allowed to lift a bit by the sheeting system, you can generate some twist. With some of the simple sheeting systems used on clubs, keeping the club tail down and eliminating excessive twist on some points of sail may be just as big of a problem. Twist can be good and at other times, not so good. Most sails are designed to have a little bit of it up top in nearly all situations since the aparent wind up there is usually skewed to weather a bit more than it is down low. So any jib that tends to swing like a barn door, rather than change shape as the sheets are eased may tend to be over-trimmed somewhat and possibly even stalling out up top when trimmed in tightly.

I might be tempted to try it on a dinghy, canoe or maybe even a beach cat, but I'm not so sure I'd stick one on a bigger boat. Any club-footed jib is going to have some practical shape adjustment limits, but this type (I don't even know if they have a name) will tend to have fairly severe limitations in that area.

Merlinron, I think what you're thinking of doing is possible, but agree that it sounds awfully complex and I think the idea of unhooking and re-attaching the jib sheets while sailing is a problem just waiting to happen. Perhaps some sort of twing-line/barber-hauler-type thing that temporarily adjusts sheeting angles of the existing sheets might work better. In any case, it seems like a lot of fiddling to make a point of sail which few people actually enjoy sailing on in the first place a little bit better. If the jib already has a club, it usually means it's a pretty small one and the main will be doing most of the pushing when sailing downwind. Is the addition of a more complex system and more stuff on the foredeck to trip over going to be worth it on the knotmeter?

[johnw]

On at least one of his catamarans, Nat Herreshoff used a system where the tack of the jib could be pulled outboard while the clew was held at the center. I'm not sure you could get good luff tension on the jib that way, though.

[John B]

Neat but I don't think its quite what he's talking about though.Those are about shifting the fulcrum/tack for on the wind as well.
On a flat run a jib/ staysail on a club naturally swings in. Its something I hate on our boat because of the shock loading as the boat yaws and drops the breeze out of the sail and then fills. Drives me crazy as the thing bashes around up there.( some may have noticed that already)

My staysail club is on a spinnaker pole fitting as a gooseneck. This is an old bronze fitting/design that unclips the pole with a half turn. I've experimented with preventers but sometimes on a run I disconnect the club and pull the tack end right back to goosewing out the staysail( so it becomes a whisker pole. I'd thought I could fit another base fitting back on the deck or on the mast to achieve it properly.
I'm still not sure how best to do it.. whether to carry on that way or just to permanently rig a double preventer affair.
Anyway, its certainly worth doing to stop the thing smashing around.

[merlinron]

john b' that's more or less what i'm talking about. instead hooking and un hooking the whisker, do away with it and let the club be the whisker. there were threads on here awhile back that discussed putting the deck end of a club on a short track to be able to flatten it a bit by pulling the club aft when it is on a tight sheet, close hauled. why not extend the track back towards the cabin further ( in my case, the mast, my deck is raised flush) so that you can pull the deck mounted club end back further to wing the jib clew out as you would with a whisker pole. it wouldn't be very complicated... you wouldn't need any purchase on the rig. simply a flat slide down the center line on the deck, on the slide would be mounted a goose neck for the club, or as yours, a wisker pole fitting with an eye for a two ended sheet. at the bow, just ahead of the club's normal position, a cheek block for one end of the sheet to pull the assembly forward, loose end running back to a cam cleat at the cabin bulkhead, and the other loose end runs straight back right along side it, to another cam cleat along side the first one, to pull the assembly aft, to flatten the jib a bit or to pull the club end connected to the slide all the way back to wing the jib clew out on a run, just as a whisker pole would do. i see, as todd mentioned ,it might be easier with the double sheets attatched all the time to avoid having to go forward to attatch the sheet used when the jib is winged out. in operation, let the self tending sheet and the forward pulling whisker sheet run loose, pull the sheet that travels the deck slide back to wing the jib out and cleat all the sheet down. the self tending sheet could have a purchase and actually act as a vang to pull down and keep the winged out jib clew from flying.

[Hwyl]

I've done a quick version of that. A club jib boat and I had a pivot made for the mast, could unbolt the gooseneck at the bow and drop the boom on the mast.

It worked O.K. on a long passage (transat).

[merlinron]

i certainly don't have to worry about any transat length passages....17ft. boat for inland sailing, i do like to build different things than what is normally seen and i think this idea might be more convenient than climbing forward on thin deck to pole the jib out as often as i think i'll have to.
the large majority of my sailing will be on the wisconsin river systen in the widened out "lakes" made by the dams. where i live there's a dam about every 10-15 miles making long narrow lakes, running basically north-south and winds most commonly N-NW or S-SE.... beat for about 3-5 miles and long run back. i also think allot of my sailing will be single handed, so anything i can figure out how to do from the cockpit, the better.
i may at some time later, have a gennaker or a spinnaker made, but innitially it will be the main and a working jib, only 36 ft, but it's there, so it might as well be wung out pulling me along.
todd..... with having the jib on such a club, one not attatched to the entire foot's length(only at the clew) and the tack end of the club on a slide, basically free to move fore and aft, doesn't that eliminate some of the restrictions to shape that you mentioned in your reply? it's essentially the same as the jib's clew being only on a sheet. i could sheet out/in and tailor the shape by moving the club for/aft, putting the clew in the exact right spot, just as though one would with a sliding sheet block to get the sheet angle right. only difference is that it would be self-tending once set for current conditions, and i can wing it out on a run from the cockpit.

[Todd Bradshaw]

It might. I don't know exactly what kind of shape and shape adjustment possibilities you'll get with such a system, but it's certainly worth trying. Generally, a 36 sq. ft. sail, even one made from light cloth (most likely 4 oz. Dacron) is going to be relatively stiff for it's size. The shape is pretty much cut into it and you don't have a lot of ability to tweak it into a different shape by adjusting the halyard, outhaul tension offered by the club or control lines the way you might on a bigger sail where cloth weight would be proportionally lighter and have more give to it.

There is the possibility that you may find that the sail only really has a good shape with the club adjustments within a narrow range, but even if the shape isn't ideal on every point of sail, it still shouldn't render it useless as a means of helping to move the boat.

I'd probably try it. It might not provide maximum boat-speed all the time, but these things need to be weighed against practicality, especially if you're sailing solo where it might really make life easier.

[merlinron]

that's kind of what i was thinking.... about making life easier when single handing. i also though about the size, it probably won't have a very big range of adjustability, that part of it was more or less an " added possible advantage". my main criteria was being able to get it hanging out from the cockpit by myself. even still, i should at least be able to change it's draft a bit with the slider.