Self tending jib

[Mrleft8]

All my life I've always wondered about these things..... How do they work? I've seen the pictures, I've seen them in real life, and in action, and I still don't get it....

[uncas]

I guessing you are referring to a club foot as it does self tend...
Real simple...you have a club foot...note pictures of Uncas...The sail goes up...one halyard, one sheet..that is the key as it runs on a track...and that is pretty much it...The club foot keeps the sail out...the one sheet is all you need as there is a track attached with a pulley to the club foot and allows you to only deal with one sheet..Perhaps self tending is really not the right phrase...I would say easier tending..
It does not like going down wind but other than that...Almost easier than the main.
Needless to say, although I like my #1 jenny...this club foot is a lot easier to contend with when alone... I use it more than I should probably.

[ 02-28-2005, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Ian McColgin]

I'm betting he means solent jib sheeting. But I like a club better and the camber spar - an internal self-vanging bent club - even better.

[uncas]

Ian... I have seen them on some newer boats..They seem, from land..not under sail...to make sense.but never used one...At least not on my boat...Have to do with the wooden club...It works well actually except down wind...

[preston]

Originally posted by uncas:
Perhaps self tending is really not the right phrase...I would say easier tending..I've always thought the advantage (the "self-tending" aspect) was that I could come about without having to touch the sheets.

Preston

[uncas]

That it does...But sometimes one has to pull on the one sheet....or let it out... ;)

[preston]

You mean, manually?!?!

[uncas]

Of course!
Perhaps that is what self tending means...You gotta pull in the sheet/or let it out yourself...Hence self tending... ;)

[ 03-01-2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[John B]

Crew isn't allowed to touch it. :D Only yourself.

thanks guys. the day is looking better. smile.gif

[uncas]

John B...sometime a little humor somewhere and certainly not in the bilge is a good thing...
So, I'm tending to myself...and the real important things in life...Boats. ;)

[John B]

I'm really concerned for Lefty. He's fretting away with worry over this and we're making jokes. He'll be back off to the Carribean if we aren't careful.

PS my staysail is on a club. works well but it needed the jackline on the 3 or 4 lower hanks so it can lower properly.

[Ian McColgin]

Returning from brain dead - I ment to write "soling" jib. Not "solent" jib which is really just a forestaysail.

The Soling arrangement has the jib on a traveler which must be carefully cambered and is another place for the Haarken brothers to make some ca$h.

[uncas]

Yes we were were kidding around a bit...All in fun...even though lefty's question does deserve a correct answer...
Perhaps because I have a club foot and it really is one that operates without too much work...pulling in a sheet or letting it out...was not sure really what he was asking...
It is an extremely simple arrangement...
One sheet foreward runs through a block to a pulley which in turn is attaches the sheet to the traveler...The club acts like a spinnacker pole and moves the sail from port to starboard depending upon tack and wind...the club's movement is based upon the movement of the sheet on the track...how much one has let out or taken in...
Again, it can't be any simpler...

[ 03-01-2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[John B]

ditto.

some of the class racers here have a curved track that matches the arc the jib travels and either run the sheet forward to a block as you describe , or take it up the mast and back down to acheive the same thing.

[ 03-01-2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Don Z.]

In all seriousness... the Harken catalog has a small section with sketches that show various types of self tending jibs. Granted, their preferred solutions always seem to have Harken part numbers involved, but it's certainly a starting point for other ideas...
Z

[John B]

Its when it goes furling self tending that it gets interesting....

[uncas]

You all are getting ahead of me... Everything on Uncus is pretty much original... I don't have any self furling jibs, a self furling main...
I certainly don't have anything from Harken.
It is a matter of you want it up...pull a line...You want it down, take it off the cleat...You want it furled...well. you get the picture.
So, guess I'll bow out as I can't add anymore here...Good luck

[Todd Bradshaw]

Furling, self-tending jib
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p3760e946abc12c6683ad8494d3c96ded/fc913f2c.jpg

[Mrleft8]

Right.... So basically it solves the problem of having to release the jib sheet on the windward side, and haul the jib sheet in on the leeward side every time you tack... Assuming you're maintaining your course relative to the wind....Or something like that...

[uncas]

Lefy...exactly right! I'll show when we stop by in August.
jamj
This one I could answer... ;)

[ 03-02-2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[John B]

If you're beating to windward , you go as close as you can effectively on both tacks so yes, you don't need to adjust it and the sail tacks itself. The negative is that the sail can't have overlap = extra horsepower for the light. The reason I have one is that we have enough to do anyway. overcanvassed boat,cutter rig, running backstays when its windy. But when its all working, like 2 weekends ago, we had a beat in 20 knots to get home from the night out. I threw a reef in the main and sailed home just staysail and main. We might have done 20 tacks perhaps, tacking on the knocks and riding the lifts. I sailed the boat, everyone else went about other business( hard work, those crayon drawings and such) and we were comfortable. Total expenditure of energy... push tiller from one side to other.
So they are a neat thing... worth getting sorted out.

[ 03-02-2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[uncas]

John B...couldn't agree more...It does come down to energy consumed...or wasted...or saved.

[George.]

It's obvious that you guys don't sail schooners. That you ignore the ease of releasing one sheet and hauling in another as your boat ponderously tacks, spending almost ten seconds head-to-wind, never missing stays but always making you think she will. And that you are immune to the pleasures of wrestling down a flogging, overlapping jib after the sheet just parted, with the clew D-ring trying to brain you as you try to balance yourself hands-free on the bowpsrit shrouds... :D

[John B]

I bust the peak halyard 2 races ago and half my 600 ft main came down around our ears. Does that count? :D

[George.]

That counts... especially if the throat refused to come down with the peak hanging low, and you were in a situation where you had to keep head-to-wind... :D

[Mrleft8]

I gotta get a bigger boat...

[Lucky Luke]

Self "tending" jib???????

I guess it must be something like that....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid160/pdf93420d831bce82bf06366080ddb4e7/f4eca687.jpg

[ 03-05-2005, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

[Mrleft8]

:D

[Kermit]

Did someone say Soling? Great boats--I learned to sail in these, and owned one for a while. I mean REALLY learned. Get a sail in one. I've never really liked any other jib arangement since.

[kuunari]

I was reading old posts and came across this one.

What is you opinion, does the self tending ease overweigh the possibility to back the jib when coming about with a schooner rig?

[gert]

"tacking on the knocks and riding the lifts"

Please explain

thx

[Figment]

"knock" aka "header".... When sailing upwind, the wind direction shifts, causing your course to alter to leeward.

"lift"... opposite of knock or header.

A boat that tacks easily and quickly can take much advantage of small changes in wind direction when working upwind. Ride the lifts up toward your target.... Tack when knocked to ride the other (now lifted) tack up toward your target.

[Gary Bergman]

We did away with the club boom. Our stays'l is loose footed, so the rigger in me said, 'what use is the boom?'..Our multiple-parted sheet beckets to a bolt in the spider rail, and belays to whichever rail necessary, depending on tack. It became such fun that now we've done away with the main boom too!(loose footed main, eh?)..eyeballing the mizzen boom as of late!...rather interesting now, as from the foredeck to the poop, there's nothin' to 'duck'...
http://www.privateerinc.org/images/226.jpg

[ 11-26-2005, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

[Thorne]

I've searched the forums but can't find the thread on this -- what is the name of the style of jib where the *center* of the jib boom pivots on the stem area? Sort of a combined jib boom and bowsprit thingie...

;- )

Is that design also sometimes rigged as self-tending, as it seems like it would be ideal for that setup.

[ 11-26-2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[neptoon]

check out the club footed jib and sheets on a Herreshoff 12 1/2

[ahp]

Thorn, look at some of the jibs on traditional Chesapeake small sailing craft. They had a spar (club) along the foot of the jib which was attached with a short line about 1/3 rd of the way back from the foreward end of the club to the stem or the end of a short bowsprit. The was no forestay or jib stay. The jib was set flying.

[N. Scheuer]

We have a club jib in our Shearwater Yawl. I quit using it in favor of conventional sheeting when we added a 120% Genoa.

It turns out that Gayle (new First Mate) likes the club jib better.

It has a couple of complications that appear to go away when we use a shorter club instead of the original which is secured to the forestay with a clevis pin. Sheting angles must be optimum for the shorter club to trim the jib properly.

One of the "complications" was the leech of the jib fouling on the forward end of the Main Sprit in tacking. The other was the jib not wanting to lower beyond a certain point without loosening the jib clew. The original jib rig has something called "jack lines" (I believe this is correct, but not sure) that let the forestay clips reach farther out from the luff when the sail was lowered. These were removed when we went to conventional sheeting. I'd rather use the shorter club (able to ease itself around the sprit) instead of reinstalling the jack lines.

Moby Nick
Moby Nick

[Dayton Eckerson]

Thorn:
Your description sounds like a Hoyte boom. Island Packet cutters use these. They work very well but I understand they are quite pricey.

[Bill Perkins]

Thorne you're thinking of the balanced Jib I believe . They look like this

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid188/pb66904c1af2b175c46bbc2d409fbf4a0/f21a83ea.jpg

or this

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid188/p8f96aaf82c1c9ec1f39036fcdb1d3a8a/f21829d1.jpg

[Thorne]

Yep, that's the one!

But I didn't realize that they sometimes were flown looking so much like a spinnaker with a boom...strange, and of course on some tacks you lose the whole 'slot' part of the sail trim effort.

Here's more of a standard boomed jib, and this Welsh outfit sure has some pretty boats - check out the Storm Petrel 19!

http://www.swallowboats.com/storm/storm2.jpg

http://www.swallowboats.com/storm19.htm

[ 12-01-2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

One of the main advantages of that type of jib rigging is that when set up properly they are "self-vanging" - meaning that the upper leech doesn't twist off to leeward, spilling wind when the sail is eased out, as can be seen in the photos. This maintains maximum jib power on all points of sail as well as being one less thing needing frequent adjustment, movable sheeting tracks, critical attention to sheeting angle etc. Thus, it's also quite popular on model sailboats where there is no on-board crew to tune or adjust the jib and only a single servo trimming or easing the sheet. It was also fairly common on old sloop-rigged iceboats, like Great South Bay Ice Scooters.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pff4d473d61ffd8e9a81ef03da0dda11a/f9f784c4.jpg

The potential downside of any self-vanging sail (a sprit-boomed mainsail is another common type of self-vanging system - look at the mainsail foot tension that the sprit boom is putting on the Storm Petrel shown above) is that twist isn't always a bad thing. Letting the top of a sail twist to leeward when you're sailing in a blow and getting overpowered is a handy and effective de-powering tool and a means of preventing excessive heeling. Self-vangers tend to be either on (working) or off (weathervaned and not contributing anything except drag). You can trim or ease their sheets and to some extent feather them "in and out of gear" but if one part of the sail is catching wind, the whole thing is and there's not much you can do about it. The more "normal" jib sheeting systems generally allow you to trim the bottom of the sail, keeping it working and allow the top to twist-off, reducing heeling as well as the amount of currently working sail area.

[ 12-01-2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
Furling, self-tending jib
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p3760e946abc12c6683ad8494d3c96ded/fc913f2c.jpgNeat.
What's the advantage of having the boom shorted than the bottom of the sail, and not having it run all the way up to the bow?

[uncas]

Looks like an interesting arrangement...I do potentially see at least one problem...What happens if your #1 genny is self furling as well...You'd have two drums on top of ewach other up there in the bow...unless you redesigned the rigging to accomodate two...and that would or could be an expensive proposition...and change how the boat handles...

[brian.cunningham]

Unless you plan of furling bewteen tacks, that boom is best left for working jibs.

If you want to run a genny as well on a roller, rig it as a cutter, then just run the lines as you normally would for a cutter.

That way the boat is self-tacking when your runnging the working jib.

[capt jake]

Unless you plan of furling bewteen tacks, that boom is best left for working jibs.

If you want to run a genny as well on a roller, rig it as a cutter, then just run the lines as you normally would for a cutter.

That way the boat is self-tacking when your runnging the working jib. Funny this should come up; I am currently setting up a system identicle to this on my Weekender (setting it up as a cutter). They are both going to be roller furling (one already is). The new 'staysail' will be self tending with the small boom as drawn.

I have made the drums and all of the associated fitting here inthe shop. The only items I need to purchase are the swivels. I have two RWO swivels (R2082) that work oustanding. Of course I am talking a slightly smaller boat here, but the concepts are identical.

I am taking measurements to begin sewing the dacron sail today. smile.gif .

[ 12-05-2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by capt jake:
Funny this should come up; I am currently setting up a system identicle to this on my Weekender (setting it up as a cutter). They are both going to be roller furling (one already is). The new 'staysail' will be self tending with the small boom as drawn.

I have made the drums and all of the associated fitting here inthe shop. The only items I need to purchase are the swivels. I have two RWO swivels (R2082) that work oustanding. Of course I am talking a slightly smaller boat here, but the concepts are identical.

I am taking measurements to begin sewing the dacron sail today. smile.gif .Be sure to posts some pics when your done! http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

[brian.cunningham]

From the "Maid of Endor" thread
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/MaidOfEndor-1.gif

[Thorne]

Here's a new one for me -- Howard Blackburn in a dory (variously called America and Sandy Bay) -- with what appears to be a partial jib boom?

http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

And yes we already hashed out the "Is that a gaff or marconi rig" on the dory Yahoo group -- I initially thought it was Marconi but if you visit the site, download and enlarge the image, it seems to be a gaffer.

[capt jake]

Neat.
What's the advantage of having the boom shorted than the bottom of the sail, and not having it run all the way up to the bow? Well, from what I am running into is the fact that if it is full length of the foot, the geometry doesn't work out to let it furl. I am facing that presently. I do not relish the idea of another hole for another fastener to hold the end of the clubfoot. with out shortening teh club and attaching it further aft, I don't see a way of making it work (in my situation). Unless there is a way to rig it so the attachment at the clew can be slacked remotely during furling.

At the same time, I am not sure how it will perform without the clubfoot. If I delete the club, the furling is a piece of cake. I will be installing a traveler to attache the clew to.

Any thoughts on this delema?

[capt jake]

Now onto the new sail. I have it all sewn and installed. It won't roll like the other one.?? I used 7/19 SS 1/8" wire, same as the other (but from a different supplier). It seems that the wire is wanting to twist excessively. Thus, it needs to get the twist out before it transfers the load to the swivel (applying force at the drum on the bottom). This means that it takes a lot more effort and strain to make it furl (compared to the other sail).

Any thoughts on this one? I would hate to have to remove the wire, buy some more and re-sew it in place. Could it simply be the wire??

Once I get this 'rolling' then I can work out the geometry of the boomlet, which will be a little challenging. ;)

[Ian McColgin]

You'll not have a really happy self-tending jib without some sort of club, boom or spar because you have to pull the clew back as well as in.

I exclude from practical consideration the expensive to install bowed track arrangements.

The balanced clubs pictured above, there the tack is to the end of the club but the club itself pivots abaft that, is one option for an unstayed rig. It develops draft off the wind as the mast can ease foreward a little, and it tightens on the wind as the forces of the main sheet and leach pull the mast back.

On a conventional club, the reason for the pivot of the club being abaft the tack is that the sail cannot develop any draft off the wind unless there is that seperation. If you just draw it, you'll see that the straightline distance clew to tack is longeest when the clew, club pivot and tack are in line and that distance grows shorter as you ease the sail out. Since the foot of the sail does not also shorten, it takes up the slack by increased draft, which you want off the wind.

Try lashing the thing in place with the boat ashore and a nice light breeze - even a big fan - to look at various drafts. Todd can give a better rule of thumb but I think the seperation should be maybe 1/10 or less of the jib's foot length.

I'me surprised that any other wire than 1x19 worked on any jib. Anyway, are you sure you're rolling the right direction? Also, are you sure that you've not too much tension for the upper swivel to work well. If you've a permanent head stay with the roller-furler behind it, have you a bale from the upper swivel to the stay?

G'luck

[John B]

Jake, check which way you're rolling it. You have to roll the jib so that action tightens the lay of the wire as opposed to "unwinding' the wire.

[capt jake]

Thanks for the responses, I so appreciate it.

I have a better understanding of the purpose of the club, and after playing with it a bit, what Ian said makes perfect sense.

I am rolling the wire the proper direction, as to tighten the lay, not loosen it. The wire may sound light, but this is a small boat and not much load. I know what you mean about too much load, as that is the way I had the lapper set up on the first go around. I since change that to a separate forestay and the jib running just aft of that.

I went out this AM and played with some left over wire from the first jib. It also has a fair amount of twist, about equal to the new stuff. Maybe the older wire has been stretched slightly and has 'set' a bit??

I am hoping to go play with it again tomorrow; maybe some use may help, who knows. ;) I know the swivels are free running (they better be for the cost ;) ).

[Ian McColgin]

If the upper swivel does not have a bale over the head stay or if the hallyard is a simple direct pull up over the sheeve, then you could be putting that twist into the hallyard, not the stay.

[capt jake]

I was looking at that, but it was just a tad out of my view. I will crawl up there and take a look today. It is set up identical to the other one (which does not have a bail) which works flawlessly.

[capt jake]

I think I found it! At the head and tack of the sail I installed a grommet. The grommet is very close to the SS wire (sewn into the luff). The thought was (and worked on the other one) to bind the grommet secrely to the wire (with a small shackle, etc) to enhance the first wrap and prevent the wire from wanting to spin inside of the sail and help start it to furl.

The geometry of this sail is slightly different than the other for obvious reasons. The forces exerted upon this attachment point (grommet) is pulling at a slightly different angle than the other sail and it binds slightly as it begins to roll. After it gets some bulk in the roll, it rolls fairly smooth.

Me thinks that it is simply the grommet (specifically the on at the head) causing the problem. Problem is, if I remove it, I then am left with a hole where the grommet was. Sew a patch over teh hole? I don't think this would be the 'strongest' method though. Maybe if I bend the grommet slightly to ease the bulk of it?

[Ian McColgin]

Do you have an eye in each end of the luff wire itself?

If so, just sieze (fibre, not wire) from each grommet to the thoat of its eye, thus also pulling the luff a bit tighter.

[capt jake]

Yes, eye in each end of the luff wire and it is siezed to the grommet with a flat piece of bronze (very thin and small), though I think if I had put in slightly smaller grommets.

[Murray Campbell]

Has anyone tried the "semi-self-tending" set-up described by Toss in the Rigger's Apprentice???

I was thinking of using it on my cutter, but haven't made up my mind yet. There are two sheets led from the end of the boom to points slightly forward on the rail. In "semi" mode, the weather sheet tackle sheets the jib in and out and the leeward sheet tackle is used as a vang. If you are short tacking and have your hands full you don't bother with vanging and just leave both sheets adjusted so it works as a self-tender.

also, Ian wrote:

"On a conventional club, the reason for the pivot of the club being abaft the tack is that the sail cannot develop any draft off the wind unless there is that seperation."

Thats what I had thought too, but I just read Hiscock ranting about how it was rarely set up properly to be effective anyway. It would be SOOO much easier to just put a gooseneck right on the stay, i wonder how much efficiency I would lose?? The stays'l seems not so useful off the wind anyway as it is badly blanketed by the main.
cheers, m.

[Ian McColgin]

A staysail is indeed so useless off the wind that if otherwise convenient you might, as was done with Goblin (Alden 43' schooner) build the pivot fitting into the staysail chainplate. Or, less good, onto the stay just below the tack.

We always struk the staysail or centered it to keep the club from killing anyone when running down wind anyway.

On a real jib, as the very similar sized Malabar II in Vinyardhaven is rigged - no staysail and big 100% clubbed jub, having the club pivot a bit back is important.

[Murray Campbell]

thanks ian, that makes good sense...

[capt jake]

Originally posted by brian.cunningham:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by capt jake:
Funny this should come up; I am currently setting up a system identicle to this on my Weekender (setting it up as a cutter). They are both going to be roller furling (one already is). The new 'staysail' will be self tending with the small boom as drawn.

I have made the drums and all of the associated fitting here inthe shop. The only items I need to purchase are the swivels. I have two RWO swivels (R2082) that work oustanding. Of course I am talking a slightly smaller boat here, but the concepts are identical.

I am taking measurements to begin sewing the dacron sail today. smile.gif .Be sure to posts some pics when your done! http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif</font>[/QUOTE]Well, Brian, I was hoping to post the pictures today. Alas, I am stil having a bit of a geometry problem. I am thinking that I need to raise the Clew and build another (now longer) clubfoot. With the clew low as I have it, it causes a large 'arc' when furling (because of the club). This is causing un-wanted stresses. Though I will be reducing sail area, I think this will be the only solution to make this set-up work out.

To top this off, I had one of the swivels fail! Darned thing is brand new. It feels like several of the SS balls went flat. Now, without the swivel, I can't play with the set-up any more.

I made several fairleads (Jatoba) to handle all of the lines going forward; at least that seems to be working OK. ;) Also a cheap lazy jack system.

[brian.cunningham]

Sorry to hear that.
Why not just make it like a regular roller furled jib, but have the line run to the end of the boom like this?
http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/atlantic55/images/SynergyJK183Lead.jpg
http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/atlantic55/medium_sailplan.gif

[capt jake]

I guess I am not seeing it in the picture. I have one standard roller furled jib forward. I am installing this one slightly aft of the first. Because of this, the mast is in the way of getting the proper angle on the jib lines, thus the clubfoot.

My existing jib is one I made from scratch, sail, drum, swivels, etc. It works just as designed. Now this one is causing a loss of hair, not that I have that much to lose! :eek:

[Ian McColgin]

Now I am really mystified by Capt.Jake's plan. Because jibs are usually sheated out by the gunnel, I am not understanding how the staysail or whatever it is being closer to the mast makes for a sheeting problem.

Also, if it's close to the jib, then it sounds more like a smaller jib meant to fly in heavier weather. A jib and staysail with luffs close together will interfere with each other more than they can help each other.

Also if jib and staysail are too closely spaced, getting the jib to tack through without rolling is something more than a pain.

Whether true staysail or sortasmaller jib, you'll likely want that stay easily removable for the days you want a clear foredeck for the balooner.

Commonly the horizontals tack to mast are about 2:1 jib:staysail.

I do not favor a staysail spar that follows the sail rolling up because that's putting weight and windage aloft. When furled, the spar will tend to oscilate in the wind.

If you look at the geometry of rolling and a spar, the solution is hard at best. All my paper versions end up with either too much space between the spar's pivot and the tack or too high a clew or both. None look right.

I'd go with a simple outhaul from clew to aft end of the spar to foreward end of the spar and then back to near the line coming back from the furling drum.

In most cases, you'll be able to have that line and the furling line one line, saving coils in the outhaul when sail is set and in the furling line when sail is furled. There will be some slack between them but you still only need one cleat. A bit of loose bight in the furling line is fine when the sail is set and when furled you can take most of the slack out winding the outhaul up around the furled jib before using the last bit os slack to cast your cleat knot leaving both sides adequately taught.

But is it a small jib or a real staysail? We do need to know more.

G'luck

[capt jake]

Also, if it's close to the jib, then it sounds more like a smaller jib meant to fly in heavier weather. This is probably a better description, Ian.


f you look at the geometry of rolling and a spar, the solution is hard at best. All my paper versions end up with either too much space between the spar's pivot and the tack or too high a clew or both. None look right. Also a very true statement. I am finding that out the hard way.


I'd go with a simple outhaul from clew to aft end of the spar to foreward end of the spar and then back to near the line coming back from the furling drum. This is how it is presently set up.

You also talk about a single line for furling and outhaul. I can't picture how this would be set up. edited "I know see how that would work" smile.gif

Sorry about my crummy description. You are right, sort of a smaller jib, to be used in heavier weather after furling the main jib. I was also hoping that it might be useful in conjunction with the main (larger) jib on light air days.

I have already added, or changed out, the jib sheet for the main jib as to allow it to pass in front of the smaller jib. It may be a buggar to pass as you stated, but it appears that it will work out OK.

Thanks for you insight and help. I still feel that if I raised the clew and lengthened the clew slightly, it wuold eliminate the unequal tensions created when furling.

[ 01-28-2006, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[Ian McColgin]

Was this rig designed with the two jibs? What happens to the balance with only the smaller jib? Have you created a weather helm problem?

Is there any opposition, a running back perhaps, to the inner jib's head tension foreward and leeward?

I assume that a reason for having two sails on two stays was to avoid having to change sails. Changing headsails on a foil can be done single handed if you really think it through - I've modified a couple of boats to do this - but it can be a bit of menacing pain. And you need space below decks or well bagged and secured near the mast base above deck for the sail not in use.

However, whichever sail is furled is also a big pile of turbulence and resistance. This is especially a problem with the big jib furled as that would be in exactly the gale you want it all the way off.

One reason I like the Merriman furlers is that you get the sail down as a snake. When they are working. Few things are more aweful in life than taking down a flogging nasty jib with no luff attachment. The foil-over-stay systems can be set up with more lightly stressed swivels, which is all to the good. Kind of a toss up.

Different boats, different longsplices, so it's not to say what you're doing won't work or isn't good for your boat and your sailing style. It's just that I personally would have just one stay and switch between the overlapping genny and the clubbed 100% or 90% or whatever.

Taming the headfoil jib is easy with a little foresight and practice. Elements on changing jibs alone or with just one other who is on the helm:

1. Harness to a jackline. If the jib gets airborne or if you're plunging in waves, you want to stay with the deck.

2. Good pulpit. If you're wedged in there ahead of the jib, you're safe.

3. Those guide sliders really work. It's well to have at least four or five per sail as you'll see soon.

4. The sail to be struck will stay up by itself well enough if you release the hallyard, so all you need is to be sure that it's laid aft neatly so's not to kink and knot, that it passes through a fair lead or cleat or something such on the mast, and that there's a stopper knot so you don't lose it.

Striking:

Ease the sheet for a little slack from your hard beat setting. If you can, lay a comfortable course as far off the wind as possible. Buckle up before going on deck. Release and layout the hallyard.

Side note on the guide sliders. Usually there's just one teathered to the drum and it helps you aim the jib towards the slot in the foil. With four or five however, I think it well for them to be teathered to the jib's tack so they stay with the sail. The upper slider should have the shortest tether (under a foot usually) to a bit below where the luff goes into the foil to keep it always alligning the luff rope into the goove. The lowers should be progressivly longer maxing out at maybe two feet depending on the boat, as you'll soon see. It's also good if there's a stopper on the luff so that all the sliders stay on when the sail's all the way up.

As you haul down the luff, be sliding up the all the sliders and when you get a bit down - with experience you'll find how much more closely you need to have them spaced near the bottom, spread a bit more at the top, but start in even segments - let the lowest slider stay with that part of the sail's luff.

Here's the cool part. The biggest pain of these jibs is the huge exposed bunt of loose luff as you strike and set. You're going to use the slider-guides and their tether's to keep that luff down near your leeward leg against the rail. It really will stay about in place after you let it go as the sail will fold at that spot.

Go a little farther and let the next to the bottom slider-guide go. And so on.

I suppose that you could put in sliders for every 6' of luff so's to make it easy to very neatly fold the sail when done, but in real life, it's stuff and mash so don't bother.

Second cool feature: Modified sail bag. The goal here is to have a bag into which you can stuff the sail and which, when stuffed, presents the entire luff more or less in order and presents the clew so you can attach or find the sheets.

The bag needs a hole in the bottom big enough to stick your fist and arm through. The bag should have a cloth strap over the bottom for a handle at that end so put the hole in the middle of that. Tie a bit of line to the handle long enough to get around the sail at center luff-center leech when the sail is laid down on the leeward rail and then some.

With the bag inside out and your arm from the outside in the hole with the string, get the string around the sail and back out the hold. Tie the string down the rail some convenient place to hold both the bag and the sail, release the leeward sheet that's been secure till now, and start working the bag over the sail, pulling the clew forward with you. At some point you'll have to untie that dangling line coming out the hole and secure to the rail just to move the bag forward. Depending on conditions, you might be able to stand and stuff from here anyway, or you might want stay seated on the deck and stuff with your feet. When you get to the luff, reach up to get the hallyard off, always remembering to secure it so it doesn't climb the mast. Pull the peak down and, after you release the tack, attach the peak to that. Finish stuffing with the peak, tack and clew all atop the bag.

For setting the sail, this is a great launch. Get the peak on the hallyard and the tack where it belongs and pull back on the bag to get the sail out. That line around the sail will just run through the hole and let the sail go. Get the sheets in place with stopper knots but don't trim.

Make sure all leads are fair and hoiste the sail. The guides will to their job and oohh wee up she rises early in the morning.

G'luck

[capt jake]

Was this rig designed with the two jibs? What happens to the balance with only the smaller jib? Have you created a weather helm problem? It was designed for one jib. I already had weather helm, and this is a noted characteristic of this design. I would only run the smaller jib when I reef the main, hoping this would balance out performance a bit.

My system has the luff wire sewn into the sail. When it is furled, it is easily rolled up like a cinnamon rool and stowed.

I am really bummed as I hasd a showrom quality finish; now I have a few holes where I have attached hardware for this modification. I may go swap swiveld today and play some more. I may take some pictures to post as well. They should help show what I am attempting to accomplish. ;)

[Ian McColgin]

So it rolls up on itself and, except that the upper swivel slides on a bale up the jib stay, it's independent?

That's the old Merriman style. Generally you set the luff tightly enough that the headstay sags a microhair.

What type of boat is she. Since you have weather helm anyway, the inner jib will just make it worse. Try just transferring that whole pile out to the regular jib spot.

Make sure she's not down at the bow too much before you fool with the rig. A lot of boats that should work develop weather helm as you add anchors and maybe a forepeak water tank.

But, you may have to go with a bow sprit.

G'luck

[capt jake]

Ian, it is a Weekender, about 16' on deck, 19 + with bowsprit. This said, I 'really' don't like going forward as it is a little tender, and 'little'. ;) smile.gif

The SS cable luff line 'is' the jibstay. Halyard is attached to a swivel, in turn attached to the top of the SS luffwire. Independant headstay.

[capt jake]

Some pictures may help. I am frankly, at wits end. I may bag teh furling idea and simply go with a conventional set-up.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p120b7e86997d6128acf62075ca06b7a5/f064541f.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p487213ff9f62383a5726d2092c4400b3/f064542c.jpg

I should add that the picture with the club does not have the club attached; it is only there to show how I envisioned it. The current rigging (in the phot) was an experiment, which isn't working out either.

I think I should install a SS jibstay, install piston hanks, attach the club and hoist it with the halyard (duh ;) . I can still use some of the rigging to control the tension on the aft end of the club. In place of the furling line; I can convert that into a dousing line.

Watcha think??

[ 01-28-2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[brian.cunningham]

Put a pulley at the end of the club, take the lead from the smaller inner jib, run it through the pulley and back to the bow of the boat, from there lead it back to the cockpit.

The second forward jib is rigged like any overlapping jib/jenny, it just has to go around the inner jib as it tacks.

That's how the catamaran I posted is rigged.

[capt jake]

ut a pulley at the end of the club, take the lead from the smaller inner jib, run it through the pulley and back to the bow of the boat, from there lead it back to the cockpit. That's how I had it rigged during the 'trials'. If I do away with the furling, as I am contemplating, I will return to that rigging as it gives control of the clew of the sail from the cockpit.

I am thinking of heading out and swaging another SS line to get started. But, I will then have to remove the SS line from the luff and re-sew a luff line in place. :rolleyes: My sewing machine didn't like me last time I tried that. ;)

[Ian McColgin]

Ah well, so much of what I wrote was utterly irrelevant for a wee boat. Nothing like getting the perspective right first!

I still think it's not such a good idea to try to carry both sails, one furled and one set, but now think it more firmly exactly because she's small. The windage and extra top hamper is far more a problem than any benefit of convenience.

You don't mention your mooring or intended cruising situation, but I'd think that a day by day decision as to which jib to use could be made with enough confidence that you could get near shore or a dock to make the change.

Of course you could go really fancy and have a track throughbolted and backed to a metal plate at the very end, to carry a car holding the firling drum in and out. Tension the luff after the car is all the way out and ease before hauling in for a stress free job of it. At least that way you can lie on the coach and foredeck with most of your mass near the mast.

If the mast is deck-stepped you're going to need a permanent forestay out to the end of the bow sprit and it's probably a good idea anyway.

By the way, if there's no seperate stay, do you have problems with the upper swivel not turning under pressure and the sail either not really winding at the top or the winding being translated down the hallyard making for a sort of counter spin when furled?

G'luck

[capt jake]

By the way, if there's no seperate stay, do you have problems with the upper swivel not turning under pressure and the sail either not really winding at the top or the winding being translated down the hallyard making for a sort of counter spin when furled? There is a separate stay,all the way at the end of the sprit. the primary jib is located just aft of that. Not problems with that one furling at all, even under tension. It rolls very smoothly with no counter twist.

Now on the second one I am attempting; it is getting some couter twist, but that is related to the geometry of trying to use the club.

You are right the your statement that I should 'judge' wich one to use prior to setting out. Several times last season I left in very light airs. Two of those times the winds picked up quite a bit in the span of about 10 minutes. No real warning, nor in the forecast. That made for some tense times, this is also what got me thinking about a smaller jib that would be easily set as the primary was furled.

[Ian McColgin]

I'd not expect a good setting jib from the sheet and horse arrangement unless you actually sheet off to a club and have a flying out-haul - clew to block on the aft end of the club to a block just abaft the pivot (I'd go with a cheek block on the club but bowsprit mounted would work) and then back to wherever you want it, probably near the hallyards.

In the classic Merriman style furler, the upper swivel has a bale around the stay, thus absolutely preventing hallyard twist.

On a free upper swivel, you can fix the twist by having a two part hallyard. Upper most part fixed to the starboard side of mast, down to a hanging block that shackles to the swivel, back up to a block on the port side of the mast and then down as normal. If the swivel is reasonably close to the mast, the seperation of the two hallyard parts will stop the hallyard twist you've experienced. If the sail does not go that far, put an SS wire pendant (same size as your luff wire) between the jib's peak and the swivel. You need to get that swivel right up there so the hallyard's bight is as short as possible and thus its width to length ratio is maximized, thus maximizing twist resistance.

You could have the pleasure of three sails if you make the big jib reefable. Have your sail-maker (to wit, yourself) sew in some ensulite strips along the luff - 1/2"x1" or smaller. to take the loose bunt out of the jib as it roles to a predetermined reef point. This could be where the sail gets to a solid 100% of J.

It will take some experiment and semi-dry fitting (two sided sticky tape) to get this right. The strips go on the inside face as the jib is rolled. Basicly you'll have the longest strip against the luff - centered on chord of deepest draft and perhaps alomst half the luff's length - with progressivly shorter strips each seperated from the one before it by enough that the gap just closes as the sail rolls up. You make enough strips that you have a smooth tight roll at the point you plan to reef to. It will be too tight, reduced draft, before that and will like all rollup's be too loose in the center after.

Many sailmakers only mark the point, but I think it best to sew in patches at the reef tack and peak.

This will give you a nicely setting sail larger than the other jib and suitable for transitional situations. I'm not aware of any written instructions on this and what I've seen of sailmakers doing it looks like trial and error. If you have a space where you can tension the sail horizontally on the luff and look at various rolls, that will be easier than lots of set and strike on the rig itself.

If you have a bale on the jib's upper swivel, nothing's going to obviate standing at the bow and reaching up to release the peak of the sail.

However, if the little jib really works without a bale, you could move it out the bowsprit nice and close to the other (need inner bobstay?) and depending on the sape you want, bring the hallyard further up the mast. (I'm still concerned about the forward bowing load that unopposed inner jib puts on the mast so the further up you can get it, the better.

Sailing on the big jib, full or reefed, you can have the little jib lying on deck with the hallyard attached someplace handy, perhaps a shackle over a shroud, and the luff pulled back making a sort of J on deck.

Jibs are essentially self raising in a good wind. So to get the big jib down and keep it down, you're gonna need a down haul for the big jib. With a hanked on sail it's easy to tame that downhaul by feeding it through the hanks. With no guides it may flog disagreeably in use unless you have it zigzagged (not spiraled) around the head stay once or no more than twice to tame it.

Anyway, you bring the rolled up big jib down, secure the downhaul, and secure the bight with a tug on the sheets. It'll lay on deck in a U. I believe this will be more suitable than flying the little jib behind the big jib rolled up. Less turbulence and bad windage aloft.

Both drums need to bow shackles to their attachments such that they can lay back and a little aside when the sail is struck. You may find it necessary to have the big jib's drum higher than the little jib's - long shackle.

Alternativly, if you set up a two part system like I describe for the little jib's hallyard, that might provide enough twist resistance for the drum when in use and give you a way to get the drum back to on-deck when that sail is struck. I had a rig like that on Goblin (Alden 43' schooner) for a while. Had to go out on the 8' bowsprit to get the jib off the swivel as it was baled to the stay, but I figured that reducing the number of jobs to be done and pins to be lost while on the dangle out there would be a good thing. Then I added a foot rope and didn't need to pull the drum back. But the notion could be useful for you, perhaps.

The little jib won't fly ok from a club that was made long enough to accomodate the reefed big jib. Looks like only a foot or so which can be accomodated by your flying outhaul tension anyway.

And there we may have solved the problems except that the bowsprit end is getting pretty clutterd with two drums and the jib club's pivot point. Not real bad but a little clutter.

Add an anchor roller on each side if you a real charlie foxtrot.

[capt jake]

OK, I have to admit that you are loosing me a bit.

You could have the pleasure of three sails if you make the big jib reefable. Have your sail-maker (to wit, yourself) sew in some ensulite strips along the luff - 1/2"x1" or smaller. to take the loose bunt out of the jib as it roles to a predetermined reef point. This could be where the sail gets to a solid 100% of J. Roller reefing wold be the ultimate solition, but I didn't think it was posible without a foil. I am assuming that ensulite is a 'foam' of sorts?

Once it is furled to the point that you want it reefed to, how are the reef points secured?

As far as the rigging for the club and small jib, I think I may have confused the issue with that picture. I will try to get out there and take a better shot, as I have it rigged the wya you describe (with the blocks). The club is simply laying there in the photo, not attached to anything.

Now this roller reefing is an idea!

I should add, there is not club with the large jib, simply the sheets.

[ 01-29-2006, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Forget it unless you want to invest in roller reefing gear instead of roller furling gear. You need a foil for roller reefing to work properly - with or without a foam luff panel. The drum and swivel type furlers (and they are marketed strictly as furlers, not reefing systems) turn more at the bottom than the top when furling and won't wind up the sail evenly or consistently.

Ensolite foam isn't very stable and both shrinks and hardens with exposure and from U.V. so a foam luff panel would be better made from PVC or ethafoam. There is probably enough U.V. coming through the fabric that they, too will eventually deteriorate, but they will remain the same size and won't stiffen until they do. In any case, 1/2" foam would be way too thick on anything other than a huge sail. The amount added to the chord measurement to create proper draft and help determine the luff curve on a jib this size is generally not much more than an inch or so, even across the broader, lower parts of the sail. If you want to temporarily turn that jib into a reduced-size working jib with a shorter chord measurement, the amount of the draft allowance that you would want to remove by rolling the cloth around this foam "bump" along the luff would be maybe 1/2" on such a small sail. A single revolution of the furler with a 1/2" thick foam pad in the luff is going to eat up better than three times that much draft. This will essentially act like a sail with a huge hollow cut into the luff curve. It's going to be drum tight across the middle and floppy along the leech and foot. For a jib that small, you would want to be using 1/16"-1/8" thick foam with a panel maybe 4"-5" wide at about 40% of luff height and tapering out as it approaches the upper and lower ends of the luff. In any case, unless you're willing to invest in something like the CDI mini furler with it's foil it ain't gonna work.

[capt jake]

First off, I would like to thank you, Ian, for your insight and patience with me on this topic. I appreciate you help, more than you know! As a relative novice to a lot of the terms and knowledge in this area, I need the help. ;)

Edited, "and thank you also, Todd. Your insight and knowledge is also a very valuble asset here as well. smile.gif "

That said, here are a few more pictures that I hope will help shed some light on the subject. The jib sheet for the large jib (lapper) turn at a block on the toe rail, though they normally lead slightly fore and aroung the forward side of the shrouds (which I don't have in place in these photos).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p9e5bcfbb11823ea44bbec425c463e6da/f0619434.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p5a4acca4be10a8400a8cc891cb5fa5fd/f0619430.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pb3656857470b78bcaba0352e2d0fe9e9/f061942d.jpg

[ 01-29-2006, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[capt jake]

And some more.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pf05ac4921648c1192d642c9dfd9847f7/f0619428.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p7bc2c250ed7d071170df6b12e3d69f0a/f0619423.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p9dfa72b71bf15cf33ef83af1cbc80954/f0619419.jpg

[uncas]

Hey...if it works...great...
I probably would not put a roller furler there but...again, if it works.
Maybe I'm too much of a tadtionalist...
roller fullers...yes, I know they are better than the once made in the past...but to me...just something else that can go wrong...
I'll stick to what Uncas has...It's been almost 60 yrs. with the same configuration...why change something that works...

Still can't figure out...from the picts...how it is self tailing...from what I can see...it just flops around....where is the sheet?

[ 01-29-2006, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[capt jake]

Still can't figure out...from the picts...how it is self tailing...from what I can see...it just flops around....where is the sheet?There is a sheet run to the end of the club, down to a traveler. This limits the movement of the end of the club and thus, the clew.

[Ian McColgin]

I was hoping that Todd would jump in - especially to correct my ignorance of different foams and my not realizing that the reefing systems require a foil, which is the only way I've seen it but did not pause to wonder why.

My thoughts on both two part hallyards and sailing with one jib on deck I think remain useful. It's a shame to move that nicely fitted smaller jib forward but you may have to for balance. Try it out first, as you've already gotten this far.

I've been wondering about the reported weather helm.

I understand several interacting sources of weatherhelm. The really evil weatherhelm excessive even in normal and light air with the boat sailing flat or at little heel. This is bad balance that may or may not be correctable by some combination of boat trim (weight aft) and sail trim (rake foreward).

If she only develops bad weather helmed when pressed hard, rail in the water and all, that's kind of normal for boats that have enough beam and shallow enough rudders that they kind of loose their bearings. Just have to sail her flat, even if it means depowering the main some.

The boat does look like she has a lot of forefoot. Have other Weekender folk tried cutting out some forefoot and/or adding some drag, perhaps by a seriously enlarged rudder and/or deeper aft end of the keel?

If the weatherhelm can't be cured by a bit of foreward rake to the mast (pretend you're a Wianno Senior) and getting weight aft, sterner measures may be required.

She's a pretty little boat and she deserves to learn how to sail well.

G'luck

[uncas]

Thanks Capt...didn't see it...saw the sheet along the boom and couldn't figure out where it went.
As is...like mine...but I have a track on the end of my club foot for the sail...

[brian.cunningham]

If you switch to the smaller inner jib, wouldn't you want to put a reef in the main as well? That should take care of the weather helm.

[Ian McColgin]

Reefing will reduce the degree of weather helm induced by heeling, as it dramatically lowers the center of sail effort and reduces the force transmitted by the wind.

The center of effort for the mainsail does not move foreward at all in most gaff rigs and moves forward insignificantly in most marconi rigs. Which is why catboats work at all reefed. Boats with foresails, however, will find a net center of effort moving forward when reefing and keeping the jib constant.

My expectation for the Capn's Weekender is that even reefed, the little jib is not forward enough and the boat could well have a worse weather helm. It might even be that, small jib where it is now, she'd balance well on any course further off the wind that a tight reach under just the little jib, no main at all. Could be a very pleasant way to scud off before a nasty, assuming no hard brown stuff around the edges.

[capt jake]

y expectation for the Capn's Weekender is that even reefed, the little jib is not forward enough and the boat could well have a worse weather helm. It might even be that, small jib where it is now, she'd balance well on any course further off the wind that a tight reach under just the little jib, no main at all. Could be a very pleasant way to scud off before a nasty, assuming no hard brown stuff around the edges. Sounds like a reasonable plan to me. I think I may just try it the way she sits now, and fuss with furling and/or some other method to stow it at a later date. You thoughts on getting it out there and trying it are the wya I think I should go.


As is...like mine...but I have a track on the end of my club foot for the sail... Now there is a thought. Good idea.


he boat does look like she has a lot of forefoot. Have other Weekender folk tried cutting out some forefoot and/or adding some drag, perhaps by a seriously enlarged rudder and/or deeper aft end of the keel?
Only one person I am aware of has altered the keel configuration. He reports good performance, but there again, talking about performance is subjective withought a basis for comparison (and I am guilty of that also).

The weather helm is more pronouced and increases as the wind increases. In light to moderate air, it is quite acceptable, actually preferable in some ways.

[Ian McColgin]

You want a little weather helm, like under 5 degrees of rudder, when beating because the rudder is acting a bit like the flaps on an airplane's wing, giving a little lift to counter the leeway. That, not turning, is the reason why 12 meters experimented with keel tabs.

If the higher breeze weather helm is associated with heel more than just wind pressure, then you may have a normal situation corrigible by sailing her flat. Boats round up by a combination of going down at the bow - either pinched bow or problematic chine - and up at the stern. That's why the high prismatic broadassed tupperware units are so annoying.

The increasing weather helm be caused by a shift in sail geometry. Try looking at her sail plan at a strong heel, project the verticle component of tilted triangles, and find those centers. On some rigs, surprising things happen. Again, sailing her flat is one solution but a very hard look at the sail plan is in order.

G'luck

[capt jake]

Well, I got my repacemetn swivel and installed it today. After a half dozen trial 'furls', it appears to be working ok. When the sail is fulred, it is still a bit loose at the head, but it ahould serve well for the intended purpose. I could get it to furl tighter if I was to raise the clew (as pointed out) and make a slightly longer club, but I think rather than spending more $$ I will give it a shot the way it is during see trials. smile.gif

Thanks for all of you help and insight.

It turns out that I was fighting that defective swivel longer than I suspected. ;)

[capt jake]

The jib set up worked surprisingly well. I was a little concerned by the location being slightly aft of the present jib. I don't have any pictures of it flying by itself unfortunately. The winds were moderate with heavier gusts and the small stas'l worked very well. No measureable increase in weather helm. The ride was much more comfortable that fighting the larger lapper jib.

Flying both teh lapper and the stas'l could be done, but it was hardly worht the effort. You had to be on a perfect heading and tune the sails in tandem. There was no increase in efficiency. It actually performed better with the lapper alone (of course the winds had died a bit when we attempted this).

I mangaged to get the furling working, though it won't furl up tight as it should. The geometry is crazy trying to match alll of the forces going on with teh steep angles. ;) I would have to raise the foot and lengthen the club to make it function 'perfect'. If I were to alter it once again, I wold be reducing the sail area, and it is small enough as is. ;) The nice thing is, I can leave it furled and yank it out when the winds pick up, and furl in the lapper. Kind of like reefing in a way.

Thanks for all of the input and advise, it sure helped me out. :) :)
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/download.php?id=3624 http://www.messing-about.com/forum/download.php?id=3625 (http://www.messing-about.com/forum/download.php?id=3625)

[ahp]

Shall we try again?

[capt jake]

Shall we try again?

????:confused: