Penobscot Rub Rails

[Miami Mike]

Hello all,

I think I've made a mistake here. I have painted my Penobscot before turning it over and have just realized that I should have applied the rub rails with epoxy before I painted the hull.

The plans call for two rub rails, The top one I'm not too worried about as there is a 1x2 fir stringer running the length inside of the boat that I can screw it into. However, the lower one will only have plywood to attach it to.

For those that aren't familiar with the Penobscot the stringers are run horizontally which is why I can only screw into the top one. The lower rub rail falls in a spot with no stringer.

Any suggestions?

And since all good posts have a picture:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/pf15c91fdcdb0074369eb95b8dc43bc66/ee82d84a.jpg

[Thorne]

I'd ask Arch Davis.

**If he was hit by a bus** and my computer was down and I had to finish the boat ASAP or die, I'd probably try hand-sanding underneath the 2nd rubrail's position back down to bare wood, prime with CPES, then epoxy it in place with a lot of clamps. If clamps wouldn't reach, I'd try very short screws.

;0 )

Lovely boat, BTW. Is that top strake painted with Kirby's Blind Green?

[Bill Perkins]

Assuming the rub rails are thicker than the ply plank, it may be practical to fasten with screws from the inside . A roundhead or pan head screw used with a small washer would protect the ply and be safe for the crew . If it seems easiest , you could get the rail properly in place and drill pilot holes straight through from the outside ; remove the rail and enlarge the holes in the ply to pass the screws ; then fasten the rail down from inside and putty the holes in the rails .

[almeyer]

I'm at the office right now, so I can't go out to the garage and double-check, but mount the rub rails so that the bottom edge of the rail is flush with the bottom edge of the shear strake. By doing that, you should be within the overlap of the first broad strake and also in the path of the stringer on the inside. I held the rub rail on with small finish nails while the epoxy dried, then pulled the nails and filled the holes.
Of course, you could also take the easy way out and leave the lower rub rails off. The boat will row and sail fine without them.
Al
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid205/pfdfa72fd1c12ae410470e3598a5247b1/ef1aff51.jpg

[CJ]

I just spoke with Arch Davis about this very thing. I'm building the P-14 and just finished the planking. I plan to fully assemble the boat before any priming & painting or varnishing. The plans suggest painting before turning the boat over, but then you have to install the seats which require screwing from the outside...
Anyway, Arch suggested simply epoxying the lower rub rail in place without using screws either from inside or outside. Should be more than adequate to hold them in place. Of course in your case, you'll have to grind down any epoxycoat or paint where the rub rail will be first. Yours is looking very nice! Any more pictures?

[ddeaton]

Mike, you should fall right on the stringer. I would just use bedding compound and screw from the outside. I may attach mine that way and I didnt paint my shear yet. I know the feeling of wanting to get the paint on. I primed one side of my catboat deck and cabin side, and I dont have the dynel on the other side yet. Talk about wanting to paint! I also wanted to see how well I faired before I did the other side. It looks great, you will get it.:)

[Miami Mike]

Okay!

Part of the thing I love about the Forum is to have a varied source of opinions and options to a given problem, it's really helped me allot in the build since I have no experience and limited skills.

Thorne & CJ both have suggested what I thought might be the route but did not really want to do just based on the fact that it's finally so smooth and nice and painted that I hate to disrupt it and then try and get it all smoothed out again and well painted afterwords. This may ultimately be the right way.

ddeaton and almeyer, who's advice I probably should take because they are building or have built the same boat as mine and know the arrangement, suggest to screw it from the outside to the lower stringer. I think this would be tricky but doable. If I go this route did you drill from the inside out so that you were sure to hit the stringer? How would you do it exactly? The stringer is a bit on an angle there and I'm apprehensive about missing it.

Bill perkins suggestion is one I did not think of and am seriously considering. If I were to use bronze round head screws with a washer I don't think it would look too bad from the inside. This would also allow me an easy means of replacing the rub rail if it got damaged. Would I need to use a bedding compound if I go this route? Would the plywood be enough to hold it on securely?

Al Meyer your boat looks great and has been an inspiration to me during my long build time, I have looked up pictures of it reguraly when i'm having trouble visualizing something. I also may take your thought of just going without the lower rub rail. When I get the top rub rail on I'll post a picture for opinions.

And as per CJ's request....another picture!

Thanks everyone I really appreciate this input.
Mike

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p066cb0ab2718843c70d8e079969b9a3b/ee7ecf90.jpg

[Dennis Rioux]

Mike,
For what it's worth, I just epoxied both the gunwale and railcap without using screws. Lots of clamps, though. I left a little flat on the underside of the gunwale bevel so clamps could be used for the rail cap. They haven't fallen off yet, but then the boat hasn't been in the water yet. Getting close -- another week or perhaps less if I can get the trailer fitted properly which is driving me nuts.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/railcap.jpg

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/paint.jpg

You can find more photos of various stages of my flailing about here. (http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/penobscot.html)

Dennis

[mower]

Mike:

I didn't even install the bottom rub rail on my P-14. Partly from sheer laziness and partly because I didn't like the idea of glueing what seemed to be only ornamentation on the hull. For the same reason, I dind't glue on the badge on the front of the bow. I rather like how it looks but I guess that is just me. All I can tell you is that the top rub rail does the job sufficiently and you probably won't notice if it were totally absent.

Paul Mower

[Paul Girouard]

.



http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/paint.jpg

You can find more photos of various stages of my flailing about here. (http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/penobscot.html)

Dennis

Dennis , pretty nice "flailing about" ;)

Cute kid's BTW:)

Paul

[Dennis Rioux]

Paul,

Thanks (on both accounts :) ). But it is flailing for me this first time through -- case in point, I just now finished leathering one oar after an almost three hour, well, flailing session. I started with the ten o'clock news figuring to be done after Leno or Letterman got done with their monologue. Hmmmm. The other one should go somewhat quicker (and I won't soak this one good side down in the baking pan with residual grease that turns the leather spotty blue (see what I mean about flailing?)). But I will echo what Mike said about this forum being a great resource -- I would be lost without the collective wisdom and hard won experience everybody shares here. Gotta go review that rope-stropped wooden block thread for tomorrow's adventure...

Dennis

[Miami Mike]

Dennis: This is the first time I've seen you post on the forum. I want to thank you for your web site chronicling your build. I found it through goggle and have looked at it several times for clarification during my build. As far as "flailing", if that's flailing, I'll take it! You should have seen me last night while feeling frustrated that I can bring the boat to this point of the building process and then seem utterly clueless on how to build the cradle to turn it over onto.

Mower: I would love to see a picture or two of your boat sans rub rail. I like the idea but am unsure of how it will look.

[Dennis Rioux]

Mike,

Mostly I lurk and mine the archives and once in a great while I will ask a question. There is an advantage to being a slow builder -- others will get there ahead of me and start threads on just the thing that's looming ahead. It happened three times this spring -- threads on painting, wooden blocks, and oar leathers developed quite nicely a couple weeks before I started in on those projects. Anyway, here is the best photo I have of my cradle in case inspiration did not strike last night. I think it is a shameless copy of Bob Quick's. I just picked a couple spots on the hull relatively far apart and spiled the hull shape onto 3/4" plywood. I made the "lands" narrower than the actual plank widths at those locations to spare the edges of the planks damage. I put 3/8" wide closed cell foam strips on the lands (one advantage of having an old house is having stuff like that laying about), draped the edges in old dish towels for extra added peace of mind, and my spouse brought home a strong friend from the Y one morning and we flipped it onto the cradle. The supports are all just more 3/4" ply and the basic frame is 2x4 stud lumber with them triangly things (the correct word escapes me right now) for rigidity. I had extra 2x4s at the ready to tie the supports together longitudinally but they really didn't need it so I left them off.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/cradle.jpg

Dennis

[almeyer]

Mike,
I built my cradle as Dennis mentioned, but mounted it on the same jig that I used when I planked the hull. My spiling wasn't exact, but some towels provided enough cushion to keep from damaging the hull, and keep the hull still when laying out/measuring the interior components.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid118/pded6ae21545d7c2dfafa1d34d968e218/f8906af2.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid118/pd3c1d438413b4a69bdeaf1f835f8eecd/f8906980.jpg

For installing the rails and caps, I didn't want to use screws so I needed a bunch of clamps to hold everything in place while the epoxy dried. I don't have too many c-clamps, so I made some home-made clamps and wedges. The material came from the temporary molds.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid118/p256b2c460d0b614b4a1871476ab9f832/f882bcf7.jpg

[Miami Mike]

Almeyer: I am thinking of doing the same thing, using the jig as a platfrom. How was the height of the boat for working on the interior once it was turned. I'm not sure if I should take the legs off the frame or not.

I'm will wrap the frame up this weekend by hook or by crook!

Thanks agian,
Mike

edited for spelling

[almeyer]

Mike, I'm just a little over 6 foot, and the height of the jig was fine for working on the interior.
I was thinking last night, if you haven't already, don't attach the upper rail until at least the breasthook and quarter knees have been installed. Epoxy is great stuff, but for added security (and to hold the pieces in place while the epoxy dries), screw them in from outside the shear strake. Then attach the upper rail later to cover up the screw holes.
Al