More on drowned diesel

[Paul Silverman]

Thanks much for the earlier replies regarding my 1975 10 hp Farymann one cylinder, hand-crank diesel that submerged when my boat descended too far into Flathead Lake. I followed most of the suggestions that were previously offered: drained the oil (lots of water), sprayed in valve cover with WD40 liberally, added new oil, checked fuel lines (they were ok) and no water in fuel. Changed the fuel filter. There is no oil filter and no air filter. I tried to crank after draining the oil and then after filling with new oil. The engine was frozen. On the theory that there might be a bit of rust either from sitting over the winter or from getting wet a couple of days earlier, I forced t he crank wheel back and forth until it freed and turned easily. The engine has refused to start. It first tried to start for a second and ran backwards!! briefly. Seemes to cough a couple of times after that. I then tried spraying wd40 into the air intake while cranking on the theory that this might start the engine. As I cranked, it spit a bit of foam out of the air intake. I am not a mechanic, but have access to a friend who knows more than I do. Any more suggestions guys? Thanks.

[Big Red]

Is it a two stroke Paul? If water got into the cylinder, as you say, it may have rusted the bore :eek: If its a four all kinda things mighta got rusted, like valves. Which may be rusted open causing a loss of compression, hence no starting.

The moving back and forth of the crank you mentioned might have been the piston gradually knocking a valve back up into the head till it cleared the piston crown, (ooh, thats just too nasty to think about).

If you wanna take a look into the cylinder just to make sure, you might be able to see down one of the ports. Which means removing a manifold.

Hand crank huh, what a novel idea smile.gif What'll they think of next. I'm gonna take a guess and assume there are no glow plugs/heaters to help it start.

Perhaps water got into the fuel after all and is blocking the injector, or pump? They might need to be looked at by a pro. You might try an alternate fuel source temporarily.

Perhaps you could hand crank it over with some Methylated Spirits (mixed in with the fuel) going through the system, which might dissolve the water and might fix her up.

If you think your motor is alright, you might like to try a product called Aerostart. Which is sprayed into the intake or onto the air filter as the motor is cranked. It is Ether I believe and is used to start cantakerous engines.

But it sounds to me like she should be pulled out of the boat and stripped down. Probably not the advice you want to hear. Just say after me: "Its only money"!

G'luck.

[Spissgatter W-9]

Hi Paul, In a former life I used to work on engines including diesels. But that that was a long time ago. First, refusal to turn over could be a number of things including: 1) water in cylinder. 2) rings rusted to cylinder. Since you were able to free the crank any water was ejected. Or, rings are freed but may be broken. If broken, then compression would be lost/reduced. Diesels heat fuel to ignition by compression. Rings keep pressure from bypassing piston. If an engine has set for some time and won't turn, better practice is to put oil in cylinder, let set and gently rock back and forth. This moot at this point.

What to do now? I would probably repeat some of your initial steps. Check dip stick again. Oil still clear? If not (milky) drain and refill. Ensure fresh clean fuel, Bleed injection system (a lot making sure no air just clean fresh fuel). (Did you say you replaced the filter? If not, should.) Are exhaust and intakes clear?

I've not started an engine with WD-40 but have used starting fluid (ether). (Careful a little goes a long way! Single squirt in the intake with the filter off should be plenty to start.)

Do you have an operator's manual? What steps do they suggest. Unless your engine was broke before sunk, I wouldn't worry about a short inundation of an engine so long as not hot or running at the time. Keep us apprised of progress.

[Murray Campbell]

hi paul

...i'm also wondering whether the "frozen" engine might have been a cylinder full of water (esp with froth out the air intake) ...if the piston comes up on compression against water it comes up against it Very solidly!
sounds like a simple engine, if it were easy to get at the exhaust manifold i would take that off and turn the engine over a bit to dry the cylinder out....you might be able to re-use the gasket otherwise have some appropriate gasket material on hand, you can make a new one

...why is it running backwards?? why is anything "frothing" OUT the air intake?? i think there is now a problem with the Timing ...this could have been caused when you were trying to turn over the engine when it was frozen solid....how is the camshaft driven on your engine?? maybe in forcing the engine you turned the flywheel on the crankshaft ???( the flywheel may be fit on a taper shaft and locked into place with a half moon key that can shear under load and allow it to shift in relation to the crankshaft...has something else broken or shifted in whatever mechanism links the crankshaft's turning to the camshaft's turning??)

i would consider pulling an injector to check on the timing (save the little copper gasket or have a replacement and keep everything Clean)....i would turn over the engine and make sure that the valves were opening and closing in the right sequence at the right time ( or at least in the right ball park, it's a simple engine you should get it to run a bit even if it's not bang on..imagine the 4 stroke sequence and when valves need to be opening and closing as you turn)(you should be able to see the piston come up to tdc through the injector hole...sometimes you can use something clean and soft which will Not fall in (like a plastic pen) in the hole as an indicator of where the piston is...for gods sake don't drop anything in or you'll be taking off the head and trying to find an antique head gasket!

and get lots of other advice too...gentle on the bolts and fittings they're old, lots of liquid wrench or penetrating oil

[Murray Campbell]

oops just re-read your post and saw that the engine has one cylinder....maybe it can run backwards a bit without screwed up timing...any antique diesel mechanics around?

[Spissgatter W-9]

Would not complicate things just yet by fooling around with timing. If WD40 has a lower cetane rating than diesel, then ignition was low in stroke. In which case, would not complete compression stroke. Instead, it would proceed in opposite (backwards) direction. Again, would urge just checking basics unless following the owners manual. In reviewing intial post, I see that there was some good advice on cleaning and inspection. If you are a novice, not particularly familiar with engines and don't have a manual to refer to, hiring a professional sooner is a better route than making things more difficult (expensive) for her to trouble shoot.

[Murray Campbell]

yep i second that!

just heading out of the lab and realizing that i am Way too tired to even think let alone talk engines, there's some flawed reasoning in my earlier post so just scrap the whole thing

good luck with your engine! :)

( i still think that it's good to be able to see what's going on and i wouldn't be too afraid to take off the valve cover and a manifold...carefully)

[Murray Campbell]

hey W-9...so with the wd-40 there is pre-ignition and with just the one cylinder and no momentum it turns backward rather than finishing compression??

what happens then? can it keep running backwards? i'm trying to visualize this and its not happening for me..

[Dan Lindberg]

Paul,

Sorry I didn't respond to your other previous post, just returned fom the weekend.

So many questions now....

Frozen.. was the crank frozen or the crank loose but couldn't be turned? (ie, were the main bearings "frozen" or the pistion/rings? If it was the bearings I'd be inclined to disassemble the whole engine.)

If it was the rings, did you soak them with pentrent/oil before working loose?

Absolutely remove the valve cover, you should be able to easily crank the engine over and watch the valves (assuming it's a 4 stroke) open and close completely. If you're getting "stuff" come back out the intake, maybe the valve is hanging up, either from debrie (from sitting over winter) or because there was water in the cylinder and after forcing it, the valve stem is now bent.

Before trying to run it again, I would make sure that all the mechanical pieces are doing what they are supposed to, if something is not, figure out why and fix it.

Does this engine have a glow plug? I tried to look at the web site given but didn't see any thing useful. If so, does it still operate?
How about the injector? There shouldn't be any air in it but crack the line and see if you get a good "squirt" of fuel. I don't know anything about this injection system, but typically they go to "full fuel" for starting, you should see a good "squirt", not just a dribble.

Dan

[O'Possum]

I have had a few small and one large diesel run backwards. If it is a small engine with splash lubrication it probably will not hurt anything for a few seconds.

If it has pressureized lubrication, shut it down RIGHT NOW! Running backwards means the oil pump is turning backwards too. THIS MEANS NO LUBRICATION OIL!

Hand cranking a diesel using starting fluid or WD40 in this case is more than just a little dangerous. Spraying fuel into the air intake puts fuel into the combustion chamber before it would be put there by the injector. This usually leads to it firing well BEFORE TDC (top dead center). If the cranker has not suficient momentum to cary the engine through, it will kick back and possibly injure the crank holder.

Spark ignition engines are less prone to this kick back unless the spark is advanced too far. That's why a lot of old hand crank engines have a lever to retard the spark putting the ignition timing to fire at or just after TDC. Automotive and some stationary engines have a centrifical advance in the magneto or distributor to automaticly retard the spark for starting and low speeds.

O'Possum

[Hwyl]

I replied in the other post. I've worked on one of these. They are originally designed as an air cooled engine (very reminiscent of a motor cycle enine of the 50's 60's. The marine versions has the fins removed and a nylon jacket with water inlet and outlet. The pushrods are in tubes (I think) external to the jacket. The cylinder head which (I think) is still air cooled, the head holds down the sandwich of cylinder, water jacket and pushrod tubes.

In the original post, I suggested taking the head off and sliding the cylinder off the piston. The mounts are on the crankcase. Because it's so easy. I guess some short cuts were taken, I'd still disassemble the head and take a look inside.

The one I worked on was on a generator, but they're not a bad little engine. I love the idea of hand start (again it's a long time ago, but there was, I think, a decompression lever).

On the one I worked on, there was a set up with this generator, a garage sized battery charger (with instant start) and an independant small battery to produce field current. So in theory, with the house and engine batteries completely flat. You could hand start the generator, the independant battery would provide the field current and the battery charger would start the main engine. The boat was sunk off Bequia shortly after I'd left her.

[ion barnes]

Hi Paul,

I think the spray coming back out of the intake is indication of the intake valve not closing completely. I would try to move the valve rockers with a pry bar(gently) to confirm their ability to move easily. Yup, there could be rust on the cylinder bores, but it would not happen overnite or over the previous week, to the extent that it would hold back the piston. I have a Sabb 18hp sitting in the yard that turns over by hand and yet has not run in at least ten years.

That been said, you need to confirm that the injector is sraying. Since you have opened the fuel system, I wonder if you have air bubbles still there. Did you prime the system completely?

If its a cold engine, it may need the intake manifold preheated with a torch!!!! Gawd I hate to say that, but really you have to get the air temp up. A heat gun would be better and heat the manifold till you cant put your hand on it. Flip up (or however you do) the de-compression lever and crank the engine (about five revolutions), keep heating the manifold, and close the de-compression lever. It should go. Fuel + hot air + compression = ignition. Too simple. No success, go back and check the three components.

[Spissgatter W-9]

It can't keep running backwards because once atomized fuel is exhausted, thats it.

For a 2 stroke, there is ignition near TDC (top dead center), piston goes down on power stroke exhaust valve opens, gas goes out, exhaust valve closes intake open as pistion continues down and around it draws in fresh air, intake valve closes, piston continues up compressing air. It heats then shortly before TDC fuel is injected, compressed a bit further, then ignites as piston begins downstroke.

If running backwards, then fuel would be injected on downsroke, exhausted out intake valve, so by the time the piston comes up there is little fuel and what remains is no longer atomized (necessary for combustion). Process not much different for a 4 stroke except more time for fuel to be exhausted and condense on piston. Neither of which is conducive to ignition.

If supply pump is gear driven, it too is running backawards and would be drawing fuel away from injector pump. It can't inject what isn't supplied.

DISCLAIMER: I don't know a thing about the motor of fuel system in question. Advice/explanation is based on typical diesels. I went to the website but couldn't find a manual. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Is this as clear as mud?

[Hwyl]

It's a four stroke