More Pics of "KINDLING"

[Lowell Bernhardt]

I finally had the opportunity to look at the boat closely tonight. And now I got some questions, mainly where to start. But first here's the pictures:

This a better bow shot then while it was on the floor.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/pa714c84c5198d6b3922163fd1898ef0d/fce0f417.jpg

This is a closer bow shot, if you look at the left side of the bow stem you can see where there was once a stringer that landed there. Now there are just the screws, the stringer is broken off about 3' from the stem. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p5ba6ed8ddd96969fdbe65c847f339cc9/fce0f40d.jpg

Here's a shot of the right (starboard?) gunnel (boy I sure hope my termonology is correct?). You can see that it is broken and that the interior coaming has pulled away from the frame. If you look closely at the picture from the bow, you can see that the fairness of this side is somewhat out now due to this break. I think the strange thing is that the other side isn't pulled in to match the breakout on this side. The way it's pulled out I would expect the frame to be broken, thus allowing just one side to move independantly of the other, but it's not broken. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p472364ff01bf04df09111be11d26f148/fce0f414.jpg

This is a picture of the broken center stringer (right term?). The stringer is broken almost dead in the middle of the boat, and it's broken clean thru. The only thing holding this part of the boat together is the oak skeg on the bottom. (right term? I know it's main purpose is to be a skid plate but is it a skeg or a keel batten or a "thingamabob"). http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p1c548e195a01fccf15b15e7582d8063d/fce0f412.jpg

This is the stern. Just below where the joint is in the picture where the stern and center stringer come together, on the outer edge. The top half of the stern is actually joined to the bottom half by a tenon cut into the top and a groove cut into the bottom half. (if I may say, this is dumb in my opinion, wouldn't you think, anywhere (especially in a boat) you could have water collect or even anything that would be exposed to water on a regular basis, wouldn't you want the joint flipped? With the tenon on the bottom and the groove on the top so as to shed water not collect it? Just my $.02, even tho I'm dumb) Anyway, the outside of this joint you could shove a screwdriver clean thru the joint and not even mean to. It's VERY soft. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/pa4c9dfca5805e3fa75765fed83447d0d/fce0f410.jpg

There is also a broken frame about 3' up from the stern. It's broken with the run of the long grain of the wood. A nice claen break just where the frame turns up at the bilge. (forgot to upload the picture, will do that later.

Now for the questions :D . So what do you think? Where do you think I should start? I would think with the center stringer and the stern joint, since they're both kindof tied together. The wood appears to be pine, very light pine. I would almost venture to say white pine. (But I think that I'll be told better) Any comments? Do you think that yellow pine would be to heavy for the repairs? I have 2 BEAUTIFUL 14' yellow pine 2x8s just itching to be something. Well that'll do me for now, I'm gonna go and start removing the rubrails and the old canvas. I think I'msafe starting there until I hear something from the "gang".

Thanks,
Lowell

[Lowell Bernhardt]

Here's the broken frame. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p7dec87b19ec640319416ec3690f3f782/fce0e58f.jpg

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Cool name :D I would think that you would start with things that are major structural, being careful to copy eggzactly and keep the shape...
Oyster would be the man on this kind of hull fer sure :cool:

[Lowell Bernhardt]

I think all here would agree that Oyster is the man for ANY hull. :D

[Paul Scheuer]

Kindling ? Good pics. It doesn't look as much like a FolBot as it did in the other shots. The FolBot approach was to cover without piercing the fabric, except at the stems. The tacks were covered with another fabric strip, glued on to sel the seam.

The Folbot stringers also presented a round edge to the fabric (a half-round edge cut from a square piece), and used plywood everywhere except the stringers and cockpit trim.

How much does that thing weigh ? It looks plenty tough, at some expense, I'd guess.

Are there signs that might tell what tools were used ?

Any history that might give a date ?

I wouldn't worry too much about the design flaw tennon. The water is supposed to stay on the outside of the boat. Most of these have all sorts of places for water to hide inside. If it's pooling in that mortise, there's a lot more going on in there.

[On Vacation]

Lowell Bernhardt
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Member # 2620

posted 12-27-2002 08:05 PM
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I think all here would agree that Oyster is the man for ANY hull.
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From: Mt. Orab | IP: Logged
Well no, not really, but one thing for sure, that frame appears to have been cut out of one piece cross grain the way it is broken. You can glue and scab plywood on both sides to correct it, or do another one in two pieces and gussett both sides to overlay the joint. What are your plans?

[Lowell Bernhardt]

TERMITES!!!!!

Well I've removed all the canvas, rub rails, handles, and coaming. Flipped the thing over and removed the center stringer. Luckily the glue that whoever built it with went the way of the dinosaur. With a little coaxing at the stem and stern. Then the afore mentioned tenon joint seemed to want to come up with the stringer so I figured "what the hay", and up it came. EEK!!!! :eek: Is that what I think it is? Yup! Apparently while the baot was in the barn for years a lonely termite seemed to take a liking to that crummy tenon joint. Not a lot of damage but enough to know that it was a termite and not water laying in the joint. OK, OK I was wrong. redface.gif

Apon further examination the front stem will have to be replaced too. You know how the bottom of the stem should stay there all the time. Well if it wern't for the stringers the bottom of this one wouldn't. It's also split clean thru from front to back.

Now, as for the frame Oyster. I was thinking, since the grain in all the frames and stems seems to be running the wrong way for there to be any strengh. When I replace them I was thinking about building them in 2 peices as you mentioned. And cutting them so the grain runs diagional to any joints or high stress areas. Does that sound feasable to you? I'm only going to replace the frames that are broken. I figure leave sleeping dogs lay. Any suggestions for what type of wood?

Paul,
Yup "KINDLING", my friend that gave it to me said that the thing wasn't much more than KINDLING. So I think that's what I'm gonna call her. I thin it has a nice ring to it. We're not sure of the boats origins, or how old it is. I'm still working on that. As for who much it weighs, I would have to say, less than 35# if I had to guess. For it's size I think it is very lite. But this is coming from the guy who packs a 85# alu canoe because I haven't gotten around to building a woodie yet. As for the tools uesd to build it, Most of the cuts and such look like they were made with hand tools. However all of the hardware seems to be shop made. (by hardware I mean the metal handles and bow and stern gurads). All of the fastenings appear to be brass, or bronze. They are very soft and have taken on a green brown color. I have only seen one ferrous screw in the whole thing, and it looked like an after thought.

Well, that's all I can think of right now. I'll be happy to answer any more questions.

Thanks,
Lowell :D

[ 12-27-2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Lowell Bernhardt ]

[On Vacation]

As far as redoing the frames, it appears that you can just cut the bad section on a diagonal with a sawsall and use the bottom parts, if they are in decent condition. This will leave a lot of the boat in tack. just use 1/4 "plywood to sandwich it. The boat appears to have maybe been a hybrid with the raised coaming and an open cockpit. Double blade paddling this boat would have been difficult at best.

The beam appears larger than feasible for this propulsion. I think it was poled through the marshland standing up on deck boards. The coaming was used to stabilize you in the upright poistion and divert water in winter conditions. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[ 12-28-2002, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[ken mcclure]

Not that I'm an expert, but if she was mine I think I'd number all the parts, completely disassemble her, make patterns from all the parts and rebuild her with new stock wherever needed.

[NormMessinger]

I read the above as it unfolded so can't remember if yaall came to a conclusion about the original maker. If not, my vote is for home made based on the way the frames are built.

--Norm

[Lowell Bernhardt]

Oyster, So you're saying leave the broken frame where it is and cut out the busted section with a sawzall. Then fashion the new peice and sandwich it between 2 quarter inch peices of ply when I reinstall? Since both sides appear to be identical, do you think it would be a good idea to make a mirror image of the new peice and double up the other side too? I'm gonna go ahead and remove both (one at a time tho)the stem and stern and rebuild them since both tenon joints need work and the stem bottom is broken. Bad idea? Any suggestions on wood?

Ken, Everything that I have removed from the boat I've labled and numbered. I've also video taped the whole process from the beginning. Cause sometimes my memory will go somewhere and play (without me) off by itself. Alos when I'm using the boat this summer no one will beleive me with the proof. I've learned thru remodeling and taking Stomper trucks apart when I was a kid, NEVER take anything ALL the way apart cause you'll always end up with extra parts. :D

Norm, I'm coming to the point that I agree with you. I wouldn't think that a shop would cut out frames with the long grain. However, whoever built it did do a good job, some of the joinery is kind of lack luster, but not knowing how old it is it's still pretty good.

Thanks,
Lowell

[On Vacation]

Just the rib section new from under wash boards down to the bottom frame cut on an angle. I wouldn't try to reinvente the wheel on this project. Try to determine the type of wood that is in it. If it is white pine, my thought would be at least a good clear vertical grain fir. If you can find a stair tread 5/4 pine material at your local wood yard, this is not a bad compromise. That appears to be close to the thickness. It is usually dry and clear. This makes it very stable and is hard enough to do a nice job structually.Price is right, also.

One more thing, the wash boards or covering boards are wide, so if this boat was rowed, it took some rigging for the oar sockets and structure. I ddin't see anything that looked like a sail was ever on it?

I agree with Norm, This boat appears to be homegrown for a particular use I can't imagine anyone with any experiences using that big of a cross grain material.

[brian.cunningham]

:cool: boat, best of luck restoring it.

Make sure all the termites are good and dead before putting it next to any of you other wood projects. Maybe you should wrap it up good and set off a bug bomb.

[whb]

Re the upside down tenon.

It would be in the right direction when the boat was upside down. The boat is likely stored upside down and this will allow it to drain.

Just a thought.

Howard

[ken mcclure]

Hmm! Either that, Howard, or the boat was built by an Australian....

[Lowell Bernhardt]

First off, thanks Oyster. smile.gif You're always a big help to my ignorant self! Just one more question, I'm not familiar with "wash boards or covering boards". Would these be the same as decking? There was no rigging for rowing or for sailing. No sign of there ever having been any either.

Howard, GOOD CALL! Why didn't I think of that? Well I guess that all Ican say is DUH!

Brian, My uncle is an exterminator and lived in this house for years. Termites quake at the mention of this place. ;) All joking aside there was only sign of what looked like a couple and they are long since gone. The stem piece wiil be burnt after it is rebuilt, termites don't like the 400 degree weather in the wood stove.

Here's a coupla more pics since the canvas has been removed and I've started some work.

Here's the termite damage, not the best detail but you get the idea. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p5d3d82039c5c86d2b421722a1448212a/fcdf35f8.jpg

Here's Kindling flipped over witht the broken bottom stringer removed. You can see the two halves of it sitting on top in the back of the pic. The bottom half of the stern has alson been removed, that was the termite damage picture.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid44/p9083825ca79dc5a06adeaf4a86302dbe/fcdf35f1.jpg

Thanks,
Lowell

[On Vacation]

On page 84, no.170 in the relaunching section, there is a rowing, hunting punt that has been redone. Notice the more drastic angle and the narrower witdh of the covering boards or decking running the length of the boat and the raised oar sockets. This has a lot of simularities to this boat. You can probably modify the witdh of these deck boards and framing to allow this boat to be rowed. Just a point of thought.

[ion barnes]

Had to turn my filing system? upside down but I found a booklet I purchased about eight years ago. Called 'How to Build a Kayak' by Donald R Brann, and published by Directions Simplified, Inc , a division of Easi-build Pattern Co., Inc Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510 Library of Congress Card # 75-2652 ISBN 0-87733-757-8
This publication is a how-to of a basic canvas covered kayak that can be built in three different lenghts, 14'3", 16'9", or 18'0". Yours does not exacatly compare however I think it would be of value to you. Beat wishes to you and your new project for the new year.

[Lowell Bernhardt]

Thanks ion. I just ordered Building Skin on Frame Boats, last night. It'll not be here for about another 2-3 weeks though. No one has it in stock so I went with the best price. I'll have to look up the book you mentioned here in a few.

Oyter, when I get to that point I'll have more questions about those oar locks in #170.

Thanks
Lowell

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Oyster
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Member # 5154
posted 12-28-2002 02:12 PM *** ** * * * **
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Just the rib section new from under wash boards down to the bottom frame cut on an angle. I wouldn't try to reinvente the wheel on this project. Try to determine the type of wood that is in it. If it is white pine, my thought would be at least a good clear vertical grain fir. If you can find a stair tread 5/4 pine material at your local wood yard, this is not a bad compromise. That appears to be close to the thickness. It is usually dry and clear. This makes it very stable and is hard enough to do a nice job structually.Price is right, also.
One more thing, the wash boards or covering boards are wide, so if this boat was rowed, it took some rigging for the oar sockets and structure. I ddin't see anything that looked like a sail was ever on it?
I agree with Norm, This boat appears to be homegrown for a particular use I can't imagine anyone with any experiences using that big of a cross grain material.
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Foolish pleasure is a boat, but some are owned by fools.
WHO CARES :mad: