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Jay Greer
05-31-2006, 12:12 PM
With the advent of modern chemistry new glues, seam and bedding comounds, varnishes, paints and coating systems have flooded the market. Some are of merit others are more cost and labor intensive than their forerunners. And are questionable as to their longevity and toxicity. Unfortuanatly many old formula compounds that were practical as well as inexpensive fall into the black hole of no longer being made. Two such products were Cuhls Elastic Seam Compound and the recently discontinued Jeffreys Marine Glue.
Both of these products were used for traditional the paying of deck seams. One might ask, when there are so many new products on the market why would you want the old stuff? Jeffreys Marine Glue was on the market for 150 years so there must have been something good about it. The reality of the matter is that few boats today are made of wood in the traditional manner and so there is little call for or profit in marketing products for such a specialised niche.

But there are advantages to using a traditional laid deck. Just as the ancient Romans knew that a compression ring around the base a archtetual dome on a building would keep it structuraly sound, so it is with a traditional laid deck. The sheer clamp, shelf and covering boards are a form of compression ring. As cotton caulking is driven into the deck seams the panel becomes a panel in tension and is more capable of resisting strains in a seaway than the modern form of a veneer deck layed over plywood.
As a deck is caulked a keen observer can feel the changes in sound and vibration as the panel "takes up". It begins to feel more solid under ones feet but still has a feeling of life and resliance not to be found in modern forms of construction. It is the cotton or okum caulking that forms the water tight seal of the deck and not the seam compound.
Raw seams should be primed with a mixture of turpentine and bee's wax followed by the driving of the cotton. Then the cotton is primed over with the same mixture. I might mention that taping off the seams is a good way to prevent decks from being stained during this process. Finally the seams are "payed" with hot seam compound. Usually this was done with a "paying ladle" that had a pouring spigot to allow the work to be done more easily. The hot pitch would fill the seams and find its way into the smallest voids.

Once cooled and after a few days of cure, the tape could be taken up and the decks washed down with cold water. Jeffreys glue would resist melting up to 110deg and Kuhls was a little more resitant to melting. After a few years, the seams might begin to show a crack or two if the decks were not sloshed down on a daily basis. But this was or is not a cause for leakage as the caulking is still keeping the decks tight.
The beauty here is that, in order to close up the seam,all that was needed was to run a hot paying iron down the crack. The seam compound will liquefy closing up the crack. Consider this the next time you can't chase down a leak in your deck and because the seams in the synthetic seam compound are starting to seperate from the sides of the seams of your expensive teak veneer and you are faced with a blistering raw knee reefing and repaying job!
JG

Tom M.
05-31-2006, 12:19 PM
You're alright, Jay. :)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-31-2006, 12:20 PM
You hit the nail on the head; the traditional yacht market is too small.

I once owned the very last case of Jefferys Number One Glue; they had discontinued it, but I tracked down the redoubtable Mrs Green who ran the place to her lair in darkest Stratford (East London, pretty dark, but now about to host the Olympics!) and she told me that they had got a special order from Cunard for enough to re-do the decks of the QE2.

She sold me the extra tin they had made for spare, just in case. 56lbs!

The penny dropped; this was 1984. Cunard had got their flagship rebuilt at her Majesty's expense after she was used as a trooper for the Falklands, and had indeed spared no expense.

Gary E
05-31-2006, 12:20 PM
Ok... what's the formula for Kuhls?
I remember that sticky sheeeet from the 50's... worked good in the underwater seams then, why not now?

Jay Greer
05-31-2006, 02:59 PM
My guess is that Kuhls Elastic Seam Compound contains asphaltium, bee's wax, mineral spirits and asbestos fibers. I happen to have two quarts in our paint locker and am toying with the idea of getting a chemical analysis made of it. If, possible, I might make it available in small batches.
JG

StevenBauer
05-31-2006, 06:25 PM
I think I read in one of the Brittish boat magazines that Jeffries was available again. I'll check later and get back to you.

Steven

Canoeyawl
05-31-2006, 06:38 PM
From http://http.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GL/GLUTARIC_ACID.htm
The marine glues are solutions of india-rubber, shellac or asphaltum, or mixtures of these substances, in benzene or naphtha. Jeffreys marine glue 15 formed by dissolving india-rubber in four parts of benzeoe and adding two parts of shellac; it is extensively used, being easily applied and drying rapidly and hard. Another water-proof glue which contains no gelatin is obtained by heating linseed oil with five parts of quicklime; when cold it forms a hard mass, which melts on heating like ordinary glue.

PeterSibley
06-02-2006, 03:07 AM
Jay, what would you use to pay laid deck now, (other than the contents of your paint locker) ?

JimD
06-02-2006, 04:03 AM
Yes, it is lamentable and me a guy who's never built anything without plywood and epoxy but there is something of value being lost here.

Jay Greer
06-02-2006, 09:58 AM
I don't like it but I use 3M Weatherban. If Jeffries is back on the market, I will search it out and use it next time I do a new deck. Again, I am seriously considering doing a break down of the Kuhls I still have. If it proves viable, I will market it in small batches or publish the formula for all of you boat yard chemists who want to brew your own.
JG

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-03-2006, 01:16 AM
I'm a bit surprised to hear that Jefferys is on the market, as the firm closed recently, and as noted above had not made any No 1 since 1984. But I'll enquire.

PeterSibley
06-03-2006, 03:09 AM
Does anyone use any of the various pitches available ? My local supplier can supply quite a number of various blends giving a wide range of melting points .

bugeye
06-03-2006, 08:17 AM
One choice that is often overlooked is plain old, dirt cheap steep pitch asphalt. I payed my lewly laid yellow pine deck with it four years ago. It has held up well, this spring being the first time I've done anything to it besides oiling it yearly. I spent about an hour with a putty knife and a heat gun mending some spots where it had cracked. I think that the thing that I like most about using pitch instead of rubber goop is that you can caulk with oakum, which on a heavy deck works alot better in my opinion. Also the hot sun seems to have a healing effect on this system, where rubber is eventually harmed by it. The only thing that I can say against straight asphalt versus Jeffrey's is that it seems to be somewhat softer in the sun, and smudges some on hot days, but not too badly. Oh and if you must use proper marine glue and can't get Jeffrey's, you can get a similar product from Zophar Mills. I think they're in New York state somewhere. I drive some people around me nuts, but I am a zealot for low tech stuff. That being said, I must confess to using CPES this year on some spots that have been hard to keep painted, but noone has to know about this.

Bob Cleek
06-03-2006, 11:18 AM
I remember reading somewhere that Gannon and Benjamin used 3M roofing tar on the deck seams of one of their large schooners. In traditional construction, the caulking is what keeps the decks tight and dry. The seam compound simply protects the caulking. Definitely the way to go.

I used to sing this lamentation all the time. I gave up in here. The Home Depot school of wooden boat building guys overwhelmed me! I've become content to be a quiet Luddite!

StevenBauer
06-03-2006, 10:39 PM
I haven't found anything about the Jeffries but I found this over at the Traditional Boat Supplies site (www.tradboats.com (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulletin/upload/www.tradboats.com))

"TBS Deck Seam Glue

When the administrators were called in last spring to W H Keys who made Jeffreys No 2 deck seam glue it was very apparent to me that there was a hole in the market. Jeffreys was the only product to pay in deck seams in the traditional manner. I felt that after some 150 years it was time to update the Jeffreys formula. Also I had no desire to "buy" from the Administrators what I could break down myself and make. Hence TBS DECK SEAM GLUE. Jeffreys, good product that it is has one failing in that it goes soft at 90 degrees F. Some Charter Skippers complained that when in high summer the girls were going below with stripes down their backs!! With this in mind I have IMPROVED the formula in that TBS DECK SEAM GLUE will stay stable until around 180 degrees F. This should also help deck washing in summer to keep the seams hard. Sold in 12 1/2 kilo steel drums @ £39 plus carr Buy Now. We also make the Cast Iron Deck Pourers for same product. These have a slight lip at the working end to sit in the seam as a guide to pouring. Deck Pourers @ £45 Buy Now. Cast Iron Kettles for same @ £110 all plus carr Buy Now
"

Steven

StevenBauer
06-03-2006, 10:43 PM
Poking around a little I see these guys list the Jeffries:
http://marinestore.co.uk/page/mrst/PROD/davey-caulking-traditional/DA5025-OO-0125/

http://marinestore.co.uk/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/da5025.jpg

I wonder if it's just an old listing or what.

Steven

Lucky Luke
06-04-2006, 10:57 PM
Steven (ad others): I may be wrong, but I think that the spelling was: "JEFFREY'S", and not JEFFERY'S". Then, what is shown here would be a "copy" - eventually identical to the original one- , but sold under a sligtly different brand name....

Now, let me say that: I HATE Jeffry's glue!

This bloody damn thing is what I have been breathing for a whole - and miserable - winter while I was working at Moody's yard in southampton....quite a while ago! I was the great "specialist" of the awful stuff!

Old John Wilsher, of Otterbourne, had taught me well, for sure, to know by the color of the fumes and the smell, exactely how hot the glue was, since too cold it would not fill the seams well, and too hot...the glue was killed! Just plainly killed. Would not ever get softish again, which it needs to remain to accept the movement of the deck planks. As the wood was pretty cold too, it was quite tricky!

I had my special tools, made from old files, to srape the old or the excess glue, my set of caulking irons and the lot, and they were not with soft handles, but just hard steel. And I had "special trousers", too, with leather knee pads that had become stiff as wood! Kneeling on teak decks for days and days, in the cold of this awful place, I was impregnated with teak oil, glue, oakum...and I was stinking like hell!!!!

When, on Saturday eves, I would go out to the pub to spend a few shillings of my miserable week's pay, all the girls would look down on me, with a look of disgust, and keep their distance from the stinky bastard with his black hands.

I was still in my twenties...

I HATE jeffry's glue, tarred oakum and all these....well...got nothing against teak wood though...!