New Wooden Runabouts - Construction

[Texas Boater]

I was surfing through some of the new wooden boat manufacturer's websites, like Turner Marine and Boesch, and was surprised to find that they all seem to use a fiberglass coated bottom or at least heavy coats of epoxy! Even Hacker Craft uses heavy coats of epoxy on all layser of their bottoms. (the boat's that is! :) )

Why if fiberglass is such a horrible thing to use on old wooden boats, with more stable old growth lumber, why is it used on modern boats?

I truly believe the expert advice that fiberglass will not allow the wood to contract and swell and if its seal is ever penetrated, it will cause rapid and undetected wood rot to advance.

But again, why is it being used on these super expensive foreign wooden runabouts? They are not plywood and they are certainly not trying to build a cheap boat.

[JimD]

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[pcford]

It makes a difference if the wood is new or old.

As a rule...99% of the time...fiberglass on the bottom is a Bad Idea when restoring a runabout...which is what your boat is. In Tahoe, boat bottoms are glassed with epoxy. That is because of the extreme conditions of the place. It's also after totally rebuilding the bottom of the boat so that you have new wood.

Glassing is not to be considered a shortcut. You still have to fix the boat.

Don't you have the Dannenberg book yet?

[Texas Boater]

Sorry Folks, I wasn’t looking for a sermon or dressing-down on boat repair - I was simply questioning why NEW expensive all wooden boats were using fiberglass and epoxy in place of the “classic methods” of boat construction”.

I can clearly see this forum is not available for general discussions concerning boat related topics, but instead thought provoking discussions on “Bill Clinton on Canadian health care (C&P)” or “President Bush 6th Greatest Problem for US”

Maybe you gentlemen should start a separate Radical Politics forum on this website so you can discuss conspiracy theories to your hearts content.

Enough

[pcford]

Wellsir, forgive me if I am wrong, but you do seem to be asking the same question over and over again, just worded in different ways.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to planning the state anarchist convention.

[Tom M.]

Texas Boater,

Whaaaaahhhh you big baby.

Fiberglass is used on new boats because we didn't have it before 1960. Also, the buying public is scared to buy a power boat that isn't glassed.

That's my opinion, and it comes from being a crazy left wing anarchist if that makes you feel more at peace.

Also, we police ourselves pretty well by keeping political flames down in the Bilge, where it belongs. Keeps the topsides shipshape.



I was simply questioning why NEW expensive all wooden boats were using fiberglass and epoxy in place of the “classic methods” of boat construction”.

I can clearly see this forum is not available for general discussions concerning boat related topics, but instead thought provoking discussions on “Bill Clinton on Canadian health care (C&P)” or “President Bush 6th Greatest Problem for US”

Maybe you gentlemen should start a separate Radical Politics forum on this website so you can discuss conspiracy theories to your hearts content.

Enough

[pcford]

Texas Boater,


That's my opinion, and it comes from being a crazy left wing anarchist if that makes you feel more at peace.



You should have said a crazy left wing anarchist from Eugene...a black flag flying snake's nest of them.

Texas Boater...I wasn't trying to be snide...but my observation was that you don't seem to be taking advice to heart.

I have been know to make an error or two...but I have been doing this stuff for 25 years.

[Tom M.]

You should have said a crazy left wing anarchist from Eugene...a black flag flying snake's nest of them.


So they say. The story obviously sells :)

[pipefitter]

Fibreglass and epoxy on a trailered boat is a different animal than on older traditional means of storing or building. Even if with solid wood. It takes a long time for water to get through epoxy. It is the extreme from very wet to very dry that makes more of a difference. I had water in the bilge of my boat for a week during last hurricane season. Three coats of epoxy on plywood. Upon removing the water,there was no discoloration of the wood where the water had been sitting. Alot of newer boats are cold molded but to look like solid planked. This is really plywood and is more dimensionally stable than one solid thickness. I am thinking that over this time since epoxy has been used,they are finding that the wood movement is alot less than the thru solid planks to where this system works.If they are going to use epoxy coating,the more the better. I really don't see a place for traditional construction in these modern times. Atleast as far as runabouts and other smallish trailered boats are concerned.

Think about it. If they were to do a real production run on traditionally constructed boats,the cost of select boat able lumber would be tough to procure long term. They have had to come up with ways to use generally decent lumber over select.Epoxy and glass does alot to help homogenize a wide spectrum of available lumber.

[JimD]

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[JimD]

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[JimD]

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[pipefitter]

Every boat topic is old news until something new comes out and takes 10 years to prove itself. We have exhausted all the topics of all available materials and products.Adequate boat building lumber is not realistically available and when I see talks of traditional construction being better, I see alot of people having to settle for the next best things just as far as lumber is concerned.Now to the first time builder that has been convinced here on this forum that traditional is better, should really be told that it is better, but not realistic. If one is looking for the holy grail of traditional boats that have been time and time again touted to last 50 years,the materials will have to be as pure and exacting as the original's. It is possible,yes, but not so practical.

The more that these subjects concerning epoxy/modern vs. traditional is talked about and on it's way to being proven every day another modern boat lives past it's expiration date,the more sound choices some of the people new to this craft will be able to attach to their own requirements.

I think it is agreed across the board with traditional vs. modern,that putting epoxy on an old wood boat is not a good thing.I dont mean to spin this towards your reply JimD. None of this was meant as a counter to your statement. Just a thought. It's all been said or the above decks would be much busier.

[Uncle Duke]

Apparently I missed the earlier posts by someone which started a small blaze, but this seems back on track now. Let me try a different summary.
You can use fiberglass on any wood boat, but sometimes it's a good idea and sometimes it's a bad idea.
It's a good idea when the wood which you are fiberglassing is dimensionally stable, like plywood, and is (almost) perfectly dry, and is completely sealed from water, and will stay that way. Like over plywood.
It's a bad idea when the wood which you are fiberglassing is not dimensionally stable, like an older plank-on-frame boat, where the wood will expand and contract due to changes in moisture content. In that case, the bond between the fiberglass (which does not expand/contract) and the wood (which does) will break.
A 'traditional' cold-molded boat (multiple layers epoxied together at different angles to each other, probably with interior and exterior layers fore and aft to simulate traditional planking) is plywood - it is just plywood that you made yourself from small pieces and which conveniently ends up in the shape of the hull you want. No problem fiberglassing there.
A 'modern' traditional boat, batten-seam epoxy glued and sealed for example, can also be fiberglassed, since the wood can no longer absorb moisture and change shape, breaking the bond.
Why would you sometimes fiberglass and sometimes not? First, fiberglass does add some strength - see, for example, it's use in stripper canoes, where there is only a single layer of wood, not multiple, and where the wood really acts as a core for inner and outer layers of glass. Second, Fiberglass can provide abrasion protection to the bottom, which matters to some people not only for beaching reasons but also for trailering reasons.
Since (properly done) the glass in invisible, there is no cosmetic difference. Just some extra work for a gain which you may or may not want.
I hope this helps.

[Don Z.]

A quick check of the Turner and Boesch site both turn up the term "laminate"... and there is the answer to your question. Solid wood will move, damaging the glass/wood interface, the laminate will not move as much...

[Holzernes Boot]

Plus with all the old beautiful and still fully restorable wooden boats lying around all over the country, why would any one spend that much money on a fake classic?

Old boats rule!:D

[bjmullins]

From what I have been reading, Riva boats started using a epoxied bottom on their hulls in the 1950's
" Up until the 1960s, Riva boats were built with batten-seam construction. Mr. Riva spread his fingers open to illustrate; these baots "leaked between the planks." Continuing the interest in lightweight construction begun with outboard racers, Riva experiemented with laminated boats in the early 1950s. In 1953, to test his ideas, Carlo Riva built a "super-light" laminated prototype of his two-seat Corsaro speedboat. The boat acheived the impressive speed of 88 km/hr, and probably would have set a speed record except that the thin 5mm panels cracked at their fastening points when they swelled. Better glues and thicker panels were needed. Knowing that perfecting the laminated panels would result in a strong lightweight and leakproof hull, Riva began a joint venture with Remo Lodi, an expert in waterproof laminated panels for seaplanes, in the late 1950s. Together they developed an approach to make extremely strong, preformed laminated panels, using aircraft type resorcinol glues...The Aquarama was the first new boat to use this construction, introduced in 1962. The Tritone, Ariston and Florida models were soon converted...The panels were so strong and impervious to water that Riva coined the term "armored laminations."" From “The world of Carlo Riva” (http://www.rivagb.com/legend/history/pdf/wooden_boat_1993.pdf)WoodenBoat, September/October 1993 (http://www.rivagb.com/legend/history/pdf/rsgb_application_membership.pdf)

I think it is interesting they refer to aircraft construction. Wasn't the British Mosquito WW2 bomber made of plywood? I wonder how they (if any have) have survived these 60 some odd years?

[JimD]

One interesting thing that has been done recently if not for some time is the use of narrow, wedge shaped splines epoxy glued between planks instead of traditional caulking. The hull is then glassed. The result is a monocoque hull without plank movement or leaks and as dry a hull as epoxy allows. I don't know if this has been done to older boats or just new builds but it has been done to some quite large boats so somebody must be quite confident in the technique.

[Uncle Duke]

JimD,
That works quite well if (and only if) you can also seal the insides of the planks so that moisture is not absorbed there. If you can do that, it's great.
If not, then you need to make sure that the splines are of a softer wood - later you will need to do traditional caulking, I think. The question is: "when" is later? 5 years? 15 years?

[JimD]

Uncle Duke, I'm assuming that these boats are epoxy excapuslated, fully coated on the inside as well. At least that's how I'd do it if I ever built a boat that way which I never will. On the new boat construction I have read about it seemed quite clear that the builder was gluing splines because they had no interest in dealing with traditional caulking and were looking for a solution to permanently avoid it.

[Grouchy_Old_Coot]

Texas Boater,

Whaaaaahhhh you big baby.

Fiberglass is used on new boats because we didn't have it before 1960. Also, the buying public is scared to buy a power boat that isn't glassed.

That's my opinion, and it comes from being a crazy left wing anarchist if that makes you feel more at peace.

Also, we police ourselves pretty well by keeping political flames down in the Bilge, where it belongs. Keeps the topsides shipshape.


Nice answer Tom!

Bet you were a heck of a nice guy on the school playground.
Take any lunch money lately?:eek:

All it takes is a couple of opinionated bullies to ruin the entire forum and stifle other's voices.

Let’s try to keep it civil.:rolleyes:

To answer the question that Texas first proposed... modern boats use epoxy, because it is available and while many of the old coots in boat collecting love their old leaky boats, young millionaires want their new boat to be safe and dry.

The truth is running a bilge pump is not a mark of character or old world charm.:mad:

Any many old wooden classics do have modern “WEST-type” hulls that were put on years ago to stop the leaking and have been running fine for many years (at least past the common believed life expectancy of 6 years, often attributed to the original boats);)

Just this old fart's opinion.:cool:

[Uncle Duke]

JimD,
You are quite correct, or I am, or something. (Our mileage may vary - other opinions may jump in here, and I'd love to see them...)
There are a few different situations here:
1) [most common] You have an older boat. There is some deterioration of the planks, but not major, or prior owners have reefed out old caulking too aggressively. You need to get back to good wood. So you run a router up between planks and create a new space which has great wood on both sides, but is a little (or a lot) large for caulking. To fix that, you create a bunch of really nice beveled strips, which you drive in and glue to one of the planks. Now you have a nice even space between planks, and you can caulk in the traditional manner with great confidence. In this case you probably want the new, glued in, strip, to be of softer wood than the planks so that in the future, if there are problems, you can route that out again with little effort, and (possibly more importantly) so that new strip will handle any "crush" loads without stressing (too much) the original structural planking.
2) On a new boat, which you can encapsulate both inside and outside, you might lay planks, then route out a space between of fixed width and then fill that with a spline glued in. That is a nice way of avoiding having to custom match each new plank to the one previous.
The real issue has to do with how directional stresses are handled. In most epoxy building, there are multiple layers at different directions to spread any stresses out as far as possible. In (single plank) traditional building, fore-aft stresses are handled by planking and other stresses are handled by frames, ribs, etc.
Traditional 'double planking' is between the two - 'triple planking' is almost all the way to cold molding (let's not forget the wonderful 'hot molding' done by Luders - beautiful boats...).
My feeling (others may/should weigh in here with opinions) is that if you are using a single layer of planks, and you are not doing strip building (glass or similar inside and outside), then you either caulk, or you should add other layers (double planking, triple planking, cold molding).
But, as noted, other opinions may apply.
UD
(question - what were all the deleted messages which you posted - am I repeating the same stuff?)

[JimD]

All it takes is a couple of opinionated bullies to ruin the entire forum and stifle other's voices.

Let’s try to keep it civil.:rolleyes:

I just plain don't like agitators;)

[JimD]

(question - what were all the deleted messages which you posted - am I repeating the same stuff?)


It was me being unnecessarily argumentative and counterproductive. :D

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

We seem to have this discussion all the time. Let me try... again.

Okay, so you have a 57 Chevy. The body is all there, the original chrome needs replating, and the 283 with the original tranny is there too.

You meticulously strip all the original pieces, have everything replated, rebuild the engine and the original carburetor. In the end you pick a little more radical color than original, and you put nice wheels on, but you keep the old ones too.

Second Scenario:

You strip off the original stuff, shave the doors, put a really cool custom interior in, do a small tub in the back, buy a 375 horse GM crate engine that's fuel injected, with a four speed automatic or five speed manual. A nice stereo with a subwoofer, and halogen headlights round out the package, with a custom stainless grill.

Scenario 3:

You buy a new car.


My point is this: Restorations that use new technology to achieve the basic fabric of the item being restored is not a restoration. It's a customization. Another example would be taking an antique table, and spraying it with satin urethane. In that business, the table would look good, but the value would significantly reduced as a result. With boats and cars, it depends on whose buying, but there are still a lot of people who want the original... EVEN IF THEY INTEND TO CUSTOMIZE IT THEMSELVES. That's because custom jobs are about taste and individual desire.

The other opinions on fibreglass on old boats are a mix. In my mind, most fibreglass jobs on old boats are done half assed, and usually compromise the life the of the boat. In a number of cases, they can really extend the life of the boat, but I think that it is more complex than just putting glass on the bottom.

Your boat appears to be sound on the bottom by all descriptions, at least it does not require major work, such as a total replacement. I vote original bottom. For the most part, if an ad for a boat says "professionally fibreglassed bottom and hull" I skip over it immediately.

[JimD]

And btw Grouchy, nice first post. That you, Dutch?

[JimD]

To add to the confusion (my own if no one elses) I was just re-reading the WB #169 article on the rebuilding of Joyant. She was double planked, with thickened epoxy troweled between the two layers of planking. This yielded a 'stiff and absolutely dry structure.' So far so good but the article goes on to mention that the hull was then to be glassed, a decision termed 'controversial'. I don't see where the controversy is. I'd have thought any controversy would have been regarding the use of epoxy between the two plank layers. Once that was done where is the controversy over glassing the finished hull?

[Holzernes Boot]

In englischen Jungen auf Englisch :D


Niet Nederlands nr, maar hij kan zeer goed Nederlands zijn en ik kan geloven niet u nu weet Nederlands wie niet is of indien ik zegt het Nederlands ook ding dutch?One is voor bepaald is, zult u hem niet door van zijn houten schoenen klomping vangen.

Hij is niet stom door om het even welke rekening. Maar het kan worden gezegd hij inderdaad grouchy is. Soms. Of opnieuw zou ik, "onbegrepen" moeten zeggen?

Pardon my Dutch. I get confused between old and new. :)

En nr, is hij geen I

[Uncle Duke]

JimD notes about Joyant:
double planked, with thickened epoxy troweled between the two layers of planking

JimD,
Like you, I am confused about the Joyant thing (and thanks, I guess, for pointing this out). From my seat, if you are going to use epoxy between the planking layers, you have now firmly bonded the two layers. Among other issues, you now can no longer easily remove the outer layer of planking, since it is firmly glued to the first layer, so you have eliminated the "replace discreet parts" advantage of single/double planking. Adding glass outside seems like a no-brainer, at that point.
Very Odd.
Note that I say this as a big fan of epoxy, but only in the correct curcumstances, which either this is not or else there is stuff I don't understand... which would not surprise me at all...