Cabin Liner & Insulation

[WoodenBNut]

I am working on a 1964 35' Sea Skiff. My wife & I plan on using this boat to do some extensive crusing and just a lot of boating when we retire in 2 years. We are putting in new engines/trans, complete rewire, etc, as we plan on using this boat for a long while. *We also plan on installing a reverse cyle air conditioning system - probably 16,000 btu based on cabing size.
Here's the question: Have any of you had experience insulating the inside of a boat cabin? What is the best insulation material to used and installation tips? Also, since we will be removing the existing cabin and helm (head) liner material, we were thinking of replacing the cabin & helm "head/ceiling" liner with a "Bead Board" type of product. Has anyone had experinece in installing "Bead Board" head/ceiling liner and how did you attach/install it? Also where do you buy the "Bead Board" head/ceiling liner material?

Thanks a bunch for the info

[sdowney717]

My eggharbor has an insulating foil covered foam board in the ceiling.
I also have a 16000 btu heat pump dual station BUT
it is only good for night use or when the main cabin is out of the sun undercover. I found that the sun on a hot summer day overwhelms the AC.
Also A lot of heat can come up into the main cabin from the engines. My boat is great in cool cold weather. I did pull up the plywood floor and pack in FG insulation underneath. There is pegboard attached between the 2 by 4 floor studs that holds the insulation in place.

[Gerald]

You might want to consider spray on foam. There are many companies in the US that provide the service. If and when the selected product catches on fire will the fumes kill you?
Gerald

[sdowney717]

finally found a cheap source.
Has anyone bought Nautolex before?
I may eventually want to replace mine and would want to use an offwhite
http://a1foamandfabrics.com/site/department.cfm?id=9F8D4ECA-1005-46FD-AC6D7547ADE76887

[Andrew]

What are the airflow and moisture concerns?

[WoodenBNut]

Sdowney717----
Hum? Yes, I did the math for the Air Conditioning capacity available on site www.aquaair.net, (http://www.aquaair.net,) and a 16,000 btu unit seemed to be "border line" for capacity for my boat. Maybe I should really consider a higher capacity unit - 19,000 btu or so (they do make one at 19,000). They also have units with rotary compressors available that take less amp draw than a piston compressor. But, I thought if maybe I insulated the heck out of the boat, maybe it would really assist the AC and heating (it definitely will!). I just need to research and figure out what the best products to use for the insulation and AC might be. Thanks

[sdowney717]

Also found this (scroll down to see pictures)
Anyone ever ordered from them, prices are low.
http://www.cyber-bridge-marine.com/marine_headliner.htm

On my boat, I have a lot of windows, so the sun can really heat up the cabin. I would like to make the front center window open to get a breeze.

[Gary E]

sd has hit on the reason A/C is a real problem in boats WINDOWS... the Egg has less window area than the Sea Skiff if yours is anything like my buddies 65 model..and it has dificulty keeping the boat reasonable temp... the CC will NEVER stay cool enuf to be comfortable unless you get a real big unit and then the others on the dock will not like the noise, even you may not like the noise...

Get used to summer... smile.gif

[ron ll]

A word about bead board. The previous owner of my boat installed bead board wainscoting type material on a bulkhead (1/2 x 3-1/2 T&G cedar). He evidently set it tight and it has since expanded enough to accordian pleat several joints. If you install it, space it a bit to give it some room to move.

Edited several days later by a red-faced ron:

Aw crap. STYROFOAM beadboard. You meant STYROFOAM beadboard.

[ 12-21-2005, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: ron ll ]

[paladin]

wood is great fer insooolashun......Baltek Balsa comes in 1 feetz by 2 feetz chunks with a dry poxy and scrim backing, and is skewered...er...ah..skord....every inch or so....do not permanently attach it but spot stick with caulking every cupppla inches, then cover with your normal headlining and ceiling material.

[WoodenBNut]

**** (1) Noise from the Marine Reverse Cycle Air Conditioning/Heating unit will not be a problem as these are marine units that are sound insulated and get their cooling from a heat exchanger that pumps sea water for a cooling/heating medium. So, your fellow dock buddies (and you) will not be bothered by any AC sound.
(2) Windows - Yes, my CC Skiff has a lot more window area than the 1960s Egg Harbors. I think maybe the best way to address some of the window generated radiant heat/cold might be to construct double foil covered with bubble insulation in the middle/between the foil. *You can purchase the insulation/bubble foil readily at a number of places. It is pretty thin stuff. Then just make a frame (screen like) to fit the window(s) and some snaps/etc. to hold the screen/reflective/insulation to the window(s) and you should drastically cut down heat entry via windows. *** Just like the automotive window heat shields.
(3) Polyurethane sprayed foam might be an option for spraying cabin roofs and sides for insulation. You can purchase Urethane Foam spray kits that have fire retardant mixed in.*I have got to do some more checking into Coast Guard requirements concerning sprayed Urethane Foam into boats.

[Gary E]

WoodenBNut,
Yes the rev cycle units are better..no question there...

It will not surprize me that you will find the composit screen insulation for the interior will be a royal pain in the @ss to deal with.. Look into white canvas snap on covers for the outside of the windows.

By the way, are you going somewhere where it is hot?... I grew up in Cincinnati and it just aint that hot there, unless ya go to Newport...well, that wuz a Loooooong time ago... :D

[WoodenBNut]

GaryE -
Yep, goin down the Ohio from Cincinnati. Tak'in a left near Paduka, KY into the Tenn-Tom, all the way down to Mobile. Eventually will wind up near Charleston, SC.(That's where we plan to throw out the final anchor). Should be one hellofa trip! Do plan to make it outside of huricane season. How long will it take? Don't care!! We will be retired. No Hurry. Takin lots of spare parts along. Even maybe a spare transmission or 2. yah only live once - or so they tell me.

[Gary E]

Sounds like a nice trip. If you have Paragons, I dont think you will need so much as a little oil to keep them topped off. Not like your gona be running anywhere near full speed with all the junk floating in them crick's. If it were me, I'd just take 2 spare wheels and some impellers for the water pumps.

[ 12-20-2005, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[GB-32]

For what it's worth, this is how I'm doing the headliner in my Grand Banks 32. I'm gluing foam board to the bottom of the cabin top, then spray gluing perforated vinyl to door skin material (thin luan)and running them across
the cabin. I'm attaching with industrial strength velcro and at the seams (every 4') am running a teak batten attached with brass screws. This covers the seams, and looks pretty good too. This has also allowed me to add lighting into the overhead, and easy access to wiring or to track down a leak.

[WoodenBNut]

GaryE--
Yep -- Its got Paragon H7 for transmissions. I also picked up a spare pair this summer(just in case and the price was right - and I'm having the 4 of them tested & rebuilt before the big trip). But, I'll probably only carry one spare H7 on the trip because the H7 is "field" reversable and carrying 2 spares is going to be too much weight. Yes, on the spare props & pump impellors( at least a couple of sets of impellors) and maybe a spare set of shafts too.

[Gary E]

Geeeze...your gona havta tow a barge for the partz... unless ya dont plan on takin the important stuff like food and BEER !!

[ssor]

Remember that moisture vapor migrates from the warm side to the cold side. If you are heating in the cold weather you will have condensate between the insulation and the cabin sides and top. Your insulation must be moisture vapor impermeable or you must have a means of ventilating the cold side of the insulation.

[Bob Cleek]

Ah... yes. WOOD is the best insulator around. I would urge you to look to window coverings to limit heat from the sun and heat loss on cold days. I certainly would NOT put any kind of insulation anywhere on a boat, though. A nautolex headliner is okay, if you must. It is perforated to permit air flow of a sort. ANYTHING you seal up in a boat is going to create a home for stinky mold and lots of rot. It will also limit access to areas you will eventually need to reach for repairs and such. (Spray on foam would be a total nightmare! Leave it for the steel hulls!) If you can't imagine boating without air conditioning, you'd better get a bigger A/C unit and live with the additional cost of operation.

[Gerald]

(Spray on foam would be a total nightmare! Leave it for the steel hulls!)
Bob
What sort of problems will it cause? I have never insulated a wooden boat with it but as you state it sure as heck works on steel.
Gerald

[FSS172]

Beadboard, aka expanded polystyrene foam - the white crumbly stuff. In addition to the problems noted, it's extremely flammable when dry - and, like all plastic, gives off deadly gases when it burns. It also soaks up and holds water like a sponge. Lower R-value too. Not much to recommend it except that it's cheap. Listen carefully to those warnings about condensation/ventilation. It's amazing how much water vapor a couple of humans give off just sitting around breathing.

[Al Owen]

I would look at a thin film covering for all of your glass, you can find it at automotive stores. Many limos use it for covering. If I where going to insulate I would look vary hard at the Nida-core website. They have some vary good ridged sound and thermal insulation. Just my two c....

[Gerald]

You can probably get millions of hits if you search insulation values. Wood has insulation value. However, the chart speaks for its self. What is all around practical is another story.
http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/carpntry/m/m.htm
When I replaced the cabin top on KATY, I sandwiched hi density foam insulation, which has aluminum on both sides, between marine plywood. The boat is more comfortable than before.
Gerald

[WoodenBNut]

bob cleek ---- Ah... yes. WOOD is the best insulator around. I would urge you to look to window coverings to limit heat from the sun and heat loss on cold days. I certainly would NOT put any kind of insulation anywhere on a boat, though. A nautolex headliner is okay, if you must

Well, I have to admit that I really don't like the idea of spraying on polyurethane foam insulation on the inside of a wooden boat. And stuffing any other kind of insulation in the hull spaces will cut airflow and promote mold/rot. So, I guess I'll just have to go with (1)covering the windows and (2) using a 19,000 BTU Marine grade AC unit and hope for the best. ** Well, at the worst, that AC unit should at least provide comfort at night when the sun isn't out.

[eagletrawler]

We live aboard our boat and being cool in the summer, warm in the winter and as little condensation and mold as possible is pretty much a requirement. When we first moved on board the condesation and mold growth was very difficult to keep up with .We ended up using 1 inch foam board between the beams, this had a dramatic affect and having it there almost 2 years there has been no issues between the foam and ceiling (they are press fit so I was able to pull them down and check).
The marine air went out and after researching I ended up with a carrier r/v unit (15k I beleive)I first noticed these on some of the large charter fishing boats .We payed around $500 new on e-bay and it has gone strong through 2 hot summers, hurricane Ivan ,the edge of denise and katrina .Home air conditioner vents are near the ceiling like a rv unit ,heat rises so I believe the marine air with vents near the floor are less effective.We also have a door in the aft cabin that is replaced with our summer door in the worst part of the summer ,this door has a 5k window unit .Even in summer when it's around 105 you could hang meat in our boat.
I just this past week finished the ceiling in the main salon and forward cabin .Based on the results with the foam I hope I am safe with what I used. We considered everyhting imaginable and ended up using 1/4 inch tongue and groove cedar planks intended for closet lining .We like the look (I know everyone wont),the light weight and the smell is great .Cedar has good qualities for fighting mildew,mold and rot .Here's a link to my insanity ... www.trawlerscott.blogspot.com (http://www.trawlerscott.blogspot.com) The only concerne I really have is the air pocket between the foam and the cedar ,obviously I decided it would be ok.Time will tell.

[ 12-21-2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: eagletrawler ]

[WoodenBNut]

Ok - This stuff seems to be too good to be true?? Has anyone ever tried this insulation product called Nansulate? It prevents thermal transfer (heat & cold).
http://www.industrial-nanotech.com/nansulate.htm
They have an exterior (clear) paintable product as well as an interior white & tintable paintable product. Hum??? If it really does work, you could just paint the inside of your cabin/helm tops. They recommend a minimum of 3 coats. They also claim it prevents mold.
Sounds good. I wonder if it really works????

[Gary E]

You might ask these fellows...
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawler s-and-trawlering (http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering)

What is the deal with the touted "Thermal barrier paint" used in new houses these days?

[ 12-27-2005, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Gerald]

http://www.industrial-nanotech.com/nansulate.htm

Wow ...... the stuff is rated at 10-13 R value at one inch. How many coats do you need to paint on to get to the R rating you want? They are talking about three coats and we can only assume that three coats are not equal to one inch. There have been hundreds of pages written about the value of this paint on the steel boat sites.
Gerald

[WoodenBNut]

Wow ...... the stuff is rated at 10-13 R value at one inch. How many coats do you need to paint on to get to the R rating you want? They are talking about three coats and we can only assume that three coats are not equal to one inch. There have been hundreds of pages written about the value of this paint on the steel boat sites.
Yeah, so I am not sure what they really mean by an R value of 10 to 13 per inch. Do they really mean that you are going to have to have a layer of Nansulate paint an inch thick to get to an R 10????? Besides being totally impractical, it would take you forever cost a fortune to get a layer of paint that thick! So what kind of R value would you get for 3 coats(they say 3 coats is around 4 mils) of the Nansulate paint? That is a paint thickness of 4 thousands of an inch! Doing the math, 4 mils paint thinkness translates to an R value of around .04 . That is an insulating value of practically nothing. Something doesn't make sense here? I have really got to have some more facts/info before I decide to go the Nansulate route.

[Gerald]

It is their figures that state 10-13 R value per inch. That is one heck of an R value. To get that R value with the pink panther fiberglass stuff, at Home Depot, you would need ???? inches of material. There is very little magic with isolation and there are 101 charts on the net that list R values.
I think that a house and a boat are somewhat the same. You need more insulation in the roof area than the walls. A boat has a second, and probably a third or fourth factor, the water temperature has a tendency to level the temperature inside the boat to its temperature. In my opinion you can gain on the air conditioner by installing roof insulation? Should insulation be added to the side??? Probably not on a wooden boat? What is the down side of adding it to the roof? If there are electrical wires, can you install plastic conduit to run the wires thru?
Gerald

[WoodenBNut]

1. What insulation benefit can I expect from Nansulate?
Here is a statement from Nansulate relative to their products insulation performance properties.
I also emailed them an asked them what insulation R value I could expect with an application of 3 coats of their paint. Let's see if I get an answer.

Nansulate Insulation Performance: With each three coat application you will receive an average surface temperature difference of 60 degrees F. Due to the nature of heat transfer, the larger the difference between your high and low temperatures, the larger the difference you will see with Nansulate. The smaller the difference between your high/low temperatures, the smaller the difference you will see. Nansulate will help to block the conductive, convective and radiant heat transfer.

So what does the above statement of insulation performamnce translate into for a wooden boat (cabin top) with 3 coats of Nansulate paint on the cabin to pinterior on a hot day in noon day sun --- say that the cabin to outside is maybe 110 to 150 degrees. If Nansulate just lowers your inside cabin to temp. by 10 degrees, that would be a great benefit with or without air conditioning. Would it though? Maybe I should just buy a gallon of the stuff and run some tests. You could paint some plywood with it and then use a heat source (heat bulb) to see how well Nansulate stops heat transfer on samples painted with it and without it. I think I may do that.

[Stephen Hutchins]

The pro glass builders often use a 1/2" closed cell foam sheet that is laminated on one side with a smooth white plastic that is grooved for and aft. It looks good and is easy to install. I have no idea who the supplier is though. One way to find the supplier is to call and bug some builders, but I don't dare give you any names. If you go to www.fiberglasswarehouse.com (http://www.fiberglasswarehouse.com) you might get some ideas of how to manufacture such sheets youself, maybee using a grooved doorskin instead of plastic.

[ 12-28-2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Hutchins ]