Spar Options ?

[Leon m]

I'm getting to the piont where I need to make a choice,and I hope you can help.here are my options...

Wood: the plans call for doug fir :1 1/2'x 16',and 1 1/2"x 12'.The problem here is,I can't get Fir localy in 16' lengths. Wich means I would have to do some funky lapping joint in the middle of my spar,and I don't trust the strength of that.It just seems like a lot of work to build an iffy spar.

Bamboo: So far the most attractive option.Strong ,light weight,naturaly good looking product, but the cost of shipping 16' poles is going to cost. :eek:Comes to around $20.00 per spar(great!),But wating for a quote on shipping.

Aluminum: Don't know a whole lot about the different qualities of alloys for spars but I can get Aluminum localy from one source in these diameters: 1 1/2"od x1.16" thick wall x 16'.or 2"od x 1/8" thick (or 1/4")x 16'. I can get both spars for about $150.00 .

http://www.instantboats.com/images/zephyrpr300.gif?SSImageQuality=Full

So, What would you do ?

[ 04-14-2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Are you sure you can't get, say, a 16' d. fir 2x12's at your local lumber yard? They may not have 16' 2x4's but it surprises me that you can't get d. fir in wider 2x stock in 16' lengths. If that is really the case, what kind of wood does the 16' 2x stock at your local lumberyard come in? They must have something. If all they've got is SPF I'd use that and just up the diameter of the spars a touch. I'd bet that shipping on the bamboo is going to be upwards of $70. I personally would not use aluminum -- I just don't like the look or the sound.

[Leon m]

I couldn't find any fir in 16'lengths what 2x fir I could find was poor quality.The only quality fir I found only went to 10'.

[Dave R]

I can believe that Leon can't get D fir locally. When I have asked for it around here they show me to the SPF pile.

Leon, have you checked Brunsell Lumber? They might have some D fir or maybe SYP.

By the way Leon, are you going to come up for the messabout at Lake City in June?

[ 04-14-2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Dave R ]

[NormMessinger]

A 1:10 scarf is as strong as the wood. Make your own 16' piece.

[Leon m]

Whats a 1:10 scarf look like ?

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Dave R:
I can believe that Leon can't get D fir locally.?I can, just not in 16' lengths.I made my 10' mast out of some really nice D fir.

[ 04-14-2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[Dave R]

In a piece of wood 1 1/2" thick a 1:10 scarf would be 15 inches long. A scarf, if that's what you're asking is a long tapered joint that allows two pieces of wood to be joined end to end without having an end grain glue surface.

[Bruce Hooke]

It is true that longer 2x d. fir stock may not be clear or good enough to be useable as mast stock. In addition, my recollection is that d. fir is often only "s-dry" meaning it has been dried down to below 22%, which is still pretty darn wet.

So, I would do one of two things:

1. If you can get some decent d. fir in shorter lengths I would scarf it. As Norm noted a standard scarf should be just as strong as the wood.

2. If you can get southern pine that ought to work just fine. IIRC it is stronger than d. fir.

3. Use SPF per my previous post...

If you do want to look some more for longer d. fir 2x stock, try checking with the lumberyards the homebuilders get their wood from. Some houses need 2x stock in wood that is stronger than SPF, so it should be available somehwhere, unless everyone is using "engineered lumber" (glulams, etc.) now...

[Bill Perkins]

Leon try shopping for finish grade lumber, not framing lumber. I'm further from the NW than you are but can get any Fir I want at a high end lumberyard that also handles Archetectural trim work and such .

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Bill Perkins:
Leon try shopping for finish grade lumber, not framing lumber. I'm further from the NW than you are but can get any Fir I want at a high end lumberyard that also handles Archetectural trim work and such .Randall Bros.?

[Keith Wilson]

First, you don't need douglas fir. It's a Bolger boat fer chrissakes; he'd say go down to the lumberyard and get whatever they have. Any reasonably good quality softwood except cedar will work (tensile strength of cedar is considerably less than spruce, fir, or pine, even hemlock). As long as the grain is reasonably tight and straight and there aren't any big knots, you're OK. The very best construction 2-bys you can find will be fine; you can get a wider one and rip out the best part, or you can laminate it from two 1-bys if you want.

Second, people make scarf joints in masts all the time. Somewhere between 8:1 and 12:1 is as strong and flexible as the original wood. Rough cut it with a saber saw or a band saw if you have one, clamp the two pieces together and plane both bevels at once (that way it's guaranteed to be straight) and glue it with epoxy. No problem.

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Keith Wilson:
First, you don't need douglas fir. It's a Bolger boat fer chrissakes; he'd say go down to the lumberyard and get whatever they have. .Well, Its not really a Bolger boat anymore...I'm just using the scantlings, but I've changed the building quility and design quite a bit: I'm building her out of Brunzeel mahogany I've added many changes to the design to make her a better looking ,better built boat.

Bruce Hook mentioned "Southern Pine". I can get Southern Yellow Pine localy in 16' lengths. Is this a suitable wood for spars?

[ 04-14-2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[Dave R]

Leon, you're gold. SYP should work fine. Will you share your source? It might be worthwhile for to to make a visit to my dad in Verona and pick up the SYP at the same time.

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Dave R:
. Will you share your source? It might be worthwhile for to to make a visit to my dad in Verona and pick up the SYP at the same time."Cleary building" in ...of all places..."Verona"
they built our horse stables out of SYP,and they sell retail to the public.

[ 04-14-2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[John Bell]

SYP will work, but oh my! is it ever heavy. Lumberyard spruce or fir would be better, IMO.

[hikingchrs]

I just bought a 16' 2x6 from the orange box few tight knots good tight grain took me 6 min diging threw their pile, ripped it into 2, 2.5" and glued it togther 2.5" x2.75, I plan on plaining it down to 2.5" x 2.5".
Chris

[Leon m]

Is that stuff really strong enough to make a good spar? I'm kind of cautious about big box lumber.

[Leon m]

What about Bamboo? any fans of Bamboo?

I'm not doubting the wisdom shared thus far...just weighing all the options.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Leon m:
What about Bamboo? any fans of Bamboo?

I'm not doubting the wisdom shared thus far...just weighing all the options.This came up on another recent thread and bamboo seemed to get good reviews from those who know it, but I think the shipping cost is going to be steep...

[Donn]

Bamboo spars, $2.50/foot (http://www.bamboofencer.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.53/it.I/id.29/.f)

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Leon m:
Is that stuff really strong enough to make a good spar? I'm kind of cautious about big box lumber.Sure, if you pick through and find a decent piece. My experience with big box lumber has been that the lumber is just fine as long as you bypass everyone else's rejects that are often on the top of the pile. I've made canoeing poles and paddles from big box lumber and both poles and paddles take a lot of stress in use...

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by John Bell:
SYP will work, but oh my! is it ever heavy. Lumberyard spruce or fir would be better, IMO.According to my references, SYP is only a shade denser than D. Fir. That said, this is a good point...spruce would likely be a better choice than either d. fir or southern yellow pine...

[Nicholas Carey]

A little rummaging around http://maps.google.com suggests that McCormick Lumber and Cabinetry (http://www.mccormicklumber.com/sitkaspruce.asp) just up the road from you (3156 Milwaukee St., Madison) and Cabinetry</a> stocks sitka spruce for the local ice boat and experimental aircraft types.

If they stock quality sitka spruce, they probably have CVG fir, too. And if they don't&hellip;just use sitka spruce of maybe 1/4-inch larger diameter.

Also, it looks like Boehm-Madisen Lumber (http://www.boehm-madisen.com/) in Waukesha stocks both CVG and flat-grain fir. And they deliver within 200 miles of Milwaukee.

[ 04-14-2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[tidmarsh]

You might also laminate layers of 1x d. fir. The local lumberyard here in Tuscaloosa, Ala., (not the big box stores) had d. fir 1 x 4 in 16' lengths that I used for my mast. A single 1 x 4 ripped and glued would give youe 1.5" spar.
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/147/147689/folders/95538/645336mastlumber2.jpg

[Bruce Hooke]

My local big box store has the same tongue and grove d. fir flooring. It is very nice looking stock...

[ssor]

The lumber yards that I have dealt with will cheerfully special order small quantities of almost anything and of course will quote price first. The wholesalers carry all manner of stock that the local yards don't stock for lack of demand. The big box stores "can" special order but generally charge a premium. Since I repair houses I have frequent need for the unusual. For example I needed 4x10 d. fir, clear, all heart, 14 feet long. For an exposed interior beam. They found it and delivered it.

[Bob Smalser]

Rafters.

Ask a local real lumberyard ...not a Big Box...for rafters.

You don't have a lumber yard with rafter stock on hand?

2X6 thru 2X12 from 12 to 22 feet or so.

[ 04-14-2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dennis Rioux]

Leon,

If you don't mind a short drive, try Boehm-Madisen in Waukesha. It is where I finally found modestly straight grain douglas fir here in Wisconsin.

Boehm-Madisen Lumber (http://www.boehm-madisen.com/services.html)

Ask for the tour -- simply amazing variety of stuff they stock.

http://www.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/images/boom.jpg

Dennis

Edit: Sorry for the repeat information -- I should read previous posts more closely and with a complete night's sleep.

[ 04-15-2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Dennis Rioux ]

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Nicholas Carey:
A little rummaging around http://maps.google.com suggests that McCormick Lumber and Cabinetry (http://www.mccormicklumber.com/sitkaspruce.asp) just up the road from you (3156 Milwaukee St., Madison) and Cabinetry</a> stocks sitka spruce for the local ice boat and experimental aircraft types.

.Thank you Nicholas! I just got off the phone to McCormick,and they carry Sitka in 21'lengths for only 4.50 a board ft. :cool:

I had called them before about D fir, and they didn't have any in 16',but I never asked them about Sitka...Wich I like even better than Fir for spars.

Thanks again ! :cool:

[Dave R]

Leon, thanks for this topic and the information that is coming out of it. Even though it's a 4 hour drive, I think it could be worthwhile for me to come down there for lumber. I couldn't find Sitka spruce or D. Fir anywhere close. Since Madison is my old stomping ground, I have reasons for going there anyway.

Dave

[ScottO12_3]

Prepare to be underwhelmed DaveR. McCormick isn't much to look at... The Sitka didn't look to great last November either

I bought some Okume ply through them, ordered 13 Nov 2004 received 11 March 2005. It was a painful process, I don't blame McCormick though, they seemed to have a lot of trouble upstream (or up ocean I guess).
-sos

[Leon m]

Originally posted by ScottO12_3:
Prepare to be underwhelmed DaveR. McCormick isn't much to look at... The Sitka didn't look to great last November either .Scott, what was wrong with the Sitka?...the guy told me it was nice stuff,tight grain, clear...but I havn't seen it yet.

Dave,I don't know about McCormick yet,But I garauntee that the SYP I told you about at Cleary is nice stuff,and a LARGE selection.There is also BVC lumber that has a good selection of exotics.

Man! with all these people in the area,I may have to put on a wooden boat get together when I get my sailboat finished.

[ 04-15-2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[Dave R]

Thanks Scott and Leon.

Yes, I'll have to check out Cleary when I get home next time.

C'mon Leon, you'll have your boat ready by the first weekend in June, right? Just in time for the Minnesota Messabout. It's almost in Wisconsin anyway. And Scott, you should come and bring Mr Bradshaw and anyone else you can find.

Details for the Messabout (http://www.paxtonconsulting.com/gpage3.html)

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Dave R:
Thanks Scott and Leon.

C'mon Leon, you'll have your boat ready by the first weekend in June, right? .

[/URL]:eek: Maybe...but knowing the way things go...I doubt it. smile.gif :( :confused: :D

[ScottO12_3]

Leon,

The sitka just looked "ratty" to me. Perhaps I just don't know sitka. It reminded me of a pile of well picked-over rough cut cedar. McCormick is a pretty small yard too. I have a lot more fun rummaging through Brunsells (especially the mill work runoffs).

You know I've always wanted to run into Mr Bradshaw, his $4 kayak paddle post is a classic. Perhaps I'll just sleep in his yard and hope for osmosis!
-sos

[Leon m]

Originally posted by ScottO12_3:
Leon,

You know I've always wanted to run into Mr Bradshaw, his $4 kayak paddle post is a classic. Perhaps I'll just sleep in his yard and hope for osmosis!
-sosI've met Todd (GREAT guy!).I still have a couple of his books I barrowed :eek: (I'll get those right back to ya Todd ;) ).Instead of sleeping in his yard just buy one of his books ,then see if he'll let ya stop over for an autograph. ;)

[ 04-15-2005, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by ScottO12_3:
The sitka just looked "ratty" to me. Perhaps I just don't know sitka. It reminded me of a pile of well picked-over rough cut cedar.That sounds about like Sitka spruce &mdash; it comes off the saw kinda fuzzy looking. It's the long fibers in the stuff that make it fuzz. And it's not much to look at 'cause there's not much differentation between early- and late-wood, I think.

Cleans up nice with a razor-sharp plane though.