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Tristan
04-30-2006, 01:31 PM
My Grandfather, whom I loved dearly, was an outspoken biggot. He was a policeman in Hialeah, FL, a big (6'2"), blue-eyed man who had made his own way with very little education. He would have made Archie Bunker blush. He spoke in derogatory terms against all other races and religions (he was a white protestant). Early on it was explained to me that I was to pay no attention to Grandpa's opinons of other races and religions. He gave me free run of his garage, including the table saw, when I was only 11. He bought me a little skiff, took me fishing, took me to a raw bar and watched me eat raw clams and oysters, a sort of initiation into manhood. With no formal education beyond 9th grade, he eventually became the city judge in Hialeah. He just read the law statutes and tried to be fair to all who came before him, regardless of race or religion. He had a background in police work and saved the city the money a lawyer would have cost. Never had a case overturned on appeal. Also, though he disparaged a wide range of people, he was never an active racist group, for example was never a part of the KKK, cross burning bunch that actually did exist in Hialeah at that time. He hated F.D.R., but did fly the flag at half mast when the president died. He had the full "Old Soldiers Never Die" speech that McArthur gave and his eyes teared up when he listened to it. He had been in the Philippines during the "Philippine Insurrection," contracted malaria. As city judge, he continued to hear cases while dying of lung and liver cancer, in his last days conducting court in a bathrobe. A real southern racist? No, Grandpa Lavery was born in New York City in 1884, into a large Northern Irish family. He learned to swim in the east river, told me stories of the free lunches that accompanied purchase of a nickle beer. He was a cab driver, eventually got a job managing an apt. building on Lakeside Drive (I think that's it). Didn't move south 'till middle age. In Hialeah he joined a large group of people from New York and New Jersey, the Ennises, Reinhardts, Rochalls, all from "up north." Now my dad WAS a southerner, yep, a Tar Heel from Guilford College, N.C. Of course this was in the piedmont, a region where there had never been any slaves, so there were no black people to hate. Dad was a quaker, the least biggoted man I ever met.

Phillip Allen
04-30-2006, 02:20 PM
Okay...so why the bio? (I spoze I missed somethin again)

Tristan
04-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Okay...so why the bio? (I spoze I missed somethin again)

Well, there have been implications that I, Geeman, and several others are racists because of out stand on illegal immigrants. Joe, for example, pointed out that several of us live, gasp, below the Mason-Dixon line. Just thought it might be interesting to explore the background of one "accused" racist. Actually I think the issue is beginnning to show a divide between those who live up in the big houses on the hill and those who don't.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

uncas
04-30-2006, 02:27 PM
I do not consider myself racist although some might.
Hell, my ancestor got a few people, who were not Europeans or native Americans but coinsidered lower than dirt, off the hook in the Armisted affair.

High C
04-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Well, there have been implications that I, Geeman, and several others are racists because of out stand on illegal immigrants. ...

I wouldn't give it a second thought. There are quite a few folks who seemingly live for little else than the opportunity to call someone else a racist. I can't imagine what need this satisfies in them, but they seem ready to do it at any mention of pretty much anything.

It's their problem, not yours.

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 02:41 PM
I appreciated the bio. It reminded me of my father and grandfather who were typical good upstanding southern citizens, yet were unknowingly very prejudiced. I was raised that way also as so many of us baby-boomers, but we saw many changes in civil rights during our lives which has caused alot of soul-searching and changes in those attitudes.
Prejudice is a very complex, insidious thing that is difficult to recognize and difficult to reverse. We can only hope we are on the way.

Tristan
04-30-2006, 02:47 PM
I just thougt Joe and others who disparage southerners might find it interesting that one of the most bigoted men I knew, my own grandpa, grew up in N.Y. City.

Phillip Allen
04-30-2006, 02:59 PM
Speaking in BROAD generalities: (Bare with me, I never get this right the first time around but believe it nonetheless).

I believe the South had a (then) legal right to succeed. I believe the federal government invaded primarily to maintain its (future) wealth (feel free to think of that wealth as its tax base). I don’t know where this fits in but think it does somewhere.

Next, the federal government defeated the free states of the south and subsequently subjugated/annexed them into it wealth base. Because of the fiery rhetoric used aggressively in the north to minimize sympathy for the south (there certainly was sympathy and Lincoln released a general (I forget his name) to extract reparations (while the war still raged) or burn-out all southern sympathizers he could find north of the line.

The war ended and the federal government, its supporters and individuals (precursors to what we now call white supremacists except the Axle of its Spin was the Supreme North vs. the White Trash South) began to exact vengeance on the South. People were burned out, lynched or imprisoned and abused in many ways. The political cut-purses and carpet-baggers (under the protection of the federal government) moved into the South creating a miasma of misery for people war-weary and hungry and without support of its own government…the virtual sack of the South.

Having stated the above… I believe the collective North has an awareness of much of its own sins and must constantly re-affirm its supremacy in order to justify those actions and miseries. (Perhaps an example would be “the south is racist but we, The Supreme North are not).

If we can draw on the lessons of Bosnia, these collective sins will be remembered for many generations. There will be many individuals who will know better and try to set examples for those who may be said to be part of the northern Axle of Spin. Individual sanity, however, is diluted and spread out and ineffectual. It will always be the mob who has the most power.

There will certainly be any number of folks who will try to argue against my thoughts but I believe can be mostly written off as massaging their own subconscious fear of being one of the Axle of Spin…no doubt there were people in the world who tried to disassociate themselves from the Holocaust while still fearing to be associated with the Jews.

I think of it as the human condition. (Sorta like saying: "That's in the past and I don't want to talk about it")

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 03:30 PM
"Bigotry" is not unique to the South. The Civil War was not fought to end slavery, but to preserve the union. Only about 9% of white men in my state owned slaves - the wealthy cotton planters. The Union couldn't wait to make Mississippi a state because of that wealth, slavery or not.

There were a few of those cotton planters who didn't even favor succession from the Union. Many of the other poor 91% of the white males were almost as discriminated against as the black slaves as far as voting rights or a voice in politics.

Many people in the North, including members of Lincoln's own cabinet did not have any desire whatsoever to abolish slavery. Lincoln was advised by several cabinet members not to issue the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862. After the war many Northern white Republican supporters of Reconstruction or more rights for freedmen went to the South to work for that cause, but there was no movement to bring freedmen to the North.

In the Great Migration caused by labor shortages early in the 20th century many Blacks were able to leave the South and obtain work in several larger industrial midwest cities. Even today those northern cities have the same civil rights issues as southern cities.

Bigotry is a very subjective thing based on plain old-fashioned hate. There are many examples of it that could be listed in all parts of our country and history. Slavery is a part of our history which we should be ashamed of. We should also be ashamed of discrimination against women, who received the right to vote long after black men. We should be ashamed of a history that discriminates against any large group of legal immigrants such as the Irish, Jews, Japanese Americans, Muslim-Americans............

Bigotry is a human condition, not a Southern one.

Lynn

Joe (SoCal)
04-30-2006, 06:52 PM
I just thougt Joe and others who disparage southerners might find it interesting that one of the most bigoted men I knew, my own grandpa, grew up in N.Y. City.

For the record geeman was the one who brought up the difference between northern and southern outlook on immigration.

Please get your fact together before you paint me with your broad bigoted brush.
Thank you.

Tristan
04-30-2006, 07:02 PM
For the record geeman was the one who brought up the difference between northern and southern outlook on immigration.

Please get your fact together before you paint me with your broad bigoted brush.
Thank you.

Got my facts together Joe, Mason-Dixon line. I had no bigoted brush in MY hand, did you?

Joe (SoCal)
04-30-2006, 07:07 PM
Nope, and I did not start the comparison geeman did. And now you are off and painting with this thread. Put a fresh coat on, it looks good on you. ;)

Concordia...41
04-30-2006, 07:08 PM
OH BROTHER!

What part of "prejudice, ignorance, and just plain too-dumb-to-own-a-computer" hasn't been exhibited on this website - sans geographical boundaries. :)

Meerkat
04-30-2006, 07:09 PM
Racism is on the rise in the US. Just consider all those NASCAR racists! :D

Concordia...41
04-30-2006, 07:12 PM
Just consider all those NASCAR racists

Yeah, well my driver can beat your driver :p

Joe (SoCal)
04-30-2006, 07:12 PM
I wouldn't give it a second thought. There are quite a few folks who seemingly live for little else than the opportunity to call someone else a racist. I can't imagine what need this satisfies in them, but they seem ready to do it at any mention of pretty much anything.

It's their problem, not yours.

You still calling the accused bomber murdered in the London tubes a terrist ?

You still calling Sadam dead ?

You still saying OSB is dead ?

You still saying we are gonna find those pesky WMD's ?

Bwaaaaaaaaa Ha Ha :D :D :D :D

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 07:13 PM
"What part of "prejudice, ignorance, and just plain too-dumb-to-own-a-computer" hasn't been exhibited on this website - sans geographical boundaries."



:D Guilty of all of the above, except I have become dependent on a computer:eek:

Concordia...41
04-30-2006, 07:15 PM
Well Stumpbumper - it appears from your picture you have better things to do. Turn the computer off and enjoy your beautiful family :)

Phil Heffernan
04-30-2006, 07:40 PM
In my opinion ALL men are racist. It's hardwired into our reptilian brain.

It serves many instinctual survival urges.

In the West, the ones who have most profited by it are white European males. We have stood on the shoulders of women & people of color for centuries. A power trip, pure & simple, that has insured our economic superiority for centuries.

The beat goes on. Look deep inside yourselves, my fellow white WBF North Americans, and tell me the racist thoughts aren't there...Even if now, they are mostly directed at Arabs...

PH:(

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 07:43 PM
I can't enjoy them, they all have computers.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL729/4281974/9000302/143364873.jpg

[
Well Stumpbumper - it appears from your picture you have better things to do. Turn the computer off and enjoy your beautiful family :)

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 07:49 PM
Well said, Phil.

Meerkat
04-30-2006, 08:04 PM
Well said? HORSE HOCKEY! :D

stumpbumper
04-30-2006, 08:10 PM
So your prejudiced against horses?:D

Phillip Allen
04-30-2006, 09:11 PM
Just got back home...I always miss everything!

Phil Heffernan
04-30-2006, 09:22 PM
I just calls 'em like I sees 'em, Meer.

Doesn't mean that SOME have seen the truth in themselves, and ACTIVELY work on it, and try to stifle the beast.

If you have done so, Bravo. I encourage others to do the same. It's a life long project...

PH

geeman
04-30-2006, 11:53 PM
Dang guys,,I missed all the fun while I was at work.For the record,,I never meant to get anything started with the Mason Dixon line thing..I just made an observation,,didnt mean to start a war over nothing.Having said that,,the name calling does get a little old after a while though.I found Tristan's bio interesting,,I saw a wee bit of my youth there.No one is going to change Joes mind,, I'm not going to try,Shame too,, I bet other then his habit of bigot hunting,,he's probably a nice guy.

geeman
05-01-2006, 03:05 AM
Too bad about that section 8 project their going to build beside Joes latest project though,,whatta shame.

Joe (SoCal)
05-01-2006, 05:12 AM
Too bad about that section 8 project their going to build beside Joes latest project though,,whatta shame.

What the hell are you talking about ???????

PeterSibley
05-01-2006, 05:23 AM
In my opinion ALL men are racist. It's hardwired into our reptilian brain.

It serves many instinctual survival urges.

In the West, the ones who have most profited by it are white European males. We have stood on the shoulders of women & people of color for centuries. A power trip, pure & simple, that has insured our economic superiority for centuries.

The beat goes on. Look deep inside yourselves, my fellow white WBF North Americans, and tell me the racist thoughts aren't there...Even if now, they are mostly directed at Arabs...

PH:(


You'd be right there Phil,it pretty well everywhere, whose in my tribe ,your tribe ...the tribes are a bit bigger now is all.Its a very hard one to get around.

Small bio. When I was about 12 I asked my Dad what he thought of Aborigines.Dad was born in 1908 ,had been a bushman,spent the depression on the road and generally lived hard for years...........his answer was thoughtful and useful to a boy. He said ,"there's good ones and bad ones ,just like anyone".I guess that's the very opposite to racism.

Mrleft8
05-01-2006, 06:42 AM
I customized my deck this weekend.

PatCox
05-01-2006, 08:42 AM
If the north invaded the south to preserve its tax base, it made a major miscalculation. The North is and has been subsidizing the south for decades; the ex-confederate states pay far less than their share of the federal tax bill.

Joe (SoCal)
05-01-2006, 08:43 AM
I customized my deck this weekend.

I think I still have a cold beer in the bilge ;)

Tristan
05-01-2006, 08:47 AM
For the record geeman was the one who brought up the difference between northern and southern outlook on immigration.

Please get your fact together before you paint me with your broad bigoted brush.
Thank you.

Thanks for the advice Joe. As for broad bigoted brushes, how about, "xenophobic, isolationist, racist, pig," which is what you called Geeman a ways back. Guess you ought to paint me with that same broad brush, as he and a few others seem to think the same way. I could paint you with a broad brush (read long list of adjectives), but that would be a stupid, childish was to deal with differences of opinion wouldn't it Joe. You got the last word Joe, go for it. Yours for lots of friendly banter, Tristen :D:D:D

High C
05-01-2006, 08:49 AM
You still calling the accused bomber murdered in the London tubes a terrist ?

You still calling Sadam dead ?

You still saying OSB is dead ?

You still saying we are gonna find those pesky WMD's ?

Bwaaaaaaaaa Ha Ha :D :D :D :D

You still a harrassing stalker who can't imagine why anyone would pick on you? :rolleyes:

Grow up, little boy.

High C
05-01-2006, 08:53 AM
If the north invaded the south to preserve its tax base, it made a major miscalculation. The North is and has been subsidizing the south for decades; the ex-confederate states pay far less than their share of the federal tax bill.

It would have been more accurate to say that the north invaded the South to preserve its resource base. Why, to this very day the nation takes Louisiana's oil and destroys her marshes in the process and pays not a single cent for it.

So just how much do we owe you, Pat?

Scubastud
05-01-2006, 08:53 AM
If the north invaded the south to preserve its tax base, it made a major miscalculation. The North is and has been subsidizing the south for decades; the ex-confederate states pay far less than their share of the federal tax bill.

I don't know about the validity of that statement, but if it is true, it is probably because the South has the majority of the non working and taxpaying Americans living there. Which are ex slaves.

Add in all the illegals who use services but pay no taxes either on propertyor labor they do and you can see that it is not the doing of White Southern Manhood.

Joe (SoCal)
05-01-2006, 09:12 AM
Thanks for the advice Joe. As for broad bigoted brushes, how about, "xenophobic, isolationist, racist, pig," which is what you called Geeman a ways back. Guess you ought to paint me with that same broad brush, as he and a few others seem to think the same way. I could paint you with a broad brush (read long list of adjectives), but that would be a stupid, childish was to deal with differences of opinion wouldn't it Joe. You got the last word Joe, go for it. Yours for lots of friendly banter, Tristen :D:D:D

Thank god there are more people who think like me, and more legal and (illegal) pooring in every day thinking like me ;) Entiéndale xenófobo, isolationist, racista, cerdo :D

Eh esse ;)

geeman
05-01-2006, 09:33 AM
>>>>>>>>> last word,,hopefully,lets try and be more careful on each side of the issue , there is NO need for personal insults to get your point across.If anyone knows of a thread where I insulted (1st )I'd like it pointed out to me,,I try not to lower myself to those tactics.Usually when those tactics ARE used ,,its one "combatants" way of trying to gain ground lost.AND it NEVER works lol.

PatCox
05-01-2006, 11:32 AM
Not true, scubastud. New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California between them have more black residents than the whole ex-confederacy.

PeterSibley
05-01-2006, 03:54 PM
I feel so ignored

stumpbumper
05-01-2006, 08:01 PM
Pat, not sure your assertion that the northern states subsidize the southern states is anything more than that. The former Confederate states are not at the bottom on total tax revenue (the first figure) or per capita tax revenue (the right hand figure). Some of them rank surprisingly high - look at Georgia. I was a little surprised that my state wasn't at the bottom as usual. I suspect the southern states carry their weight, especially when you include all the various and sundry pork that is distributed to the states by the federal government. Ofcourse alot of things have to be factored in like cost of living index. I'd say we probably take care of ours and you take care of yours.

States Ranked by Total Taxes and Per Capita Amount: 2005
(Amounts in thousands. Per capita amounts in dollars)
Total tax Total tax per capita
Rank State Amount Rank State Amount

United States….. 648,606,245 United States….. 2,192.27

1 California….. 98,434,685 1 Vermont….. 3,600.16
2 New York….. 50,190,396 2 Hawaii….. 3,477.93
3 Florida….. 33,894,971 3 Wyoming….. 3,417.77
4 Texas….. 32,784,942 4 Connecticut….. 3,300.49
5 Pennsylvania….. 27,262,969 5 Delaware….. 3,228.79
6 Illinois….. 26,411,689 6 Minnesota….. 3,093.93
7 Michigan….. 24,340,487 7 Massachusetts….. 2,815.23
8 Ohio….. 24,006,560 8 Alaska….. 2,786.90
9 New Jersey….. 22,933,999 9 California….. 2,724.31
10 North Carolina….. 18,639,618 10 New Jersey….. 2,630.65
11 Massachusetts….. 18,014,681 11 New York….. 2,606.62
12 Virginia….. 15,918,847 12 Rhode Island….. 2,443.07
13 Minnesota….. 15,881,131 13 Wisconsin….. 2,429.96
14 Georgia….. 15,675,655 14 Maryland….. 2,410.23
15 Washington….. 14,839,634 15 Michigan….. 2,404.95
16 Maryland….. 13,497,281 16 West Virginia….. 2,367.17
17 Wisconsin….. 13,452,250 17 Washington….. 2,359.99
18 Indiana….. 12,853,976 18 Arkansas….. 2,357.84
19 Connecticut….. 11,584,728 19 Maine….. 2,323.12
20 Arizona….. 11,008,428 20 New Mexico….. 2,319.23
21 Tennessee….. 10,007,292 21 North Dakota….. 2,202.97
22 Missouri….. 9,543,814 22 Pennsylvania….. 2,193.32
23 Kentucky….. 9,090,882 23 Kentucky….. 2,178.50
24 Louisiana….. 8,638,674 24 Nebraska….. 2,158.36
25 Alabama….. 7,799,948 25 North Carolina….. 2,146.68
26 Colorado….. 7,648,456 26 Virginia….. 2,103.72
27 South Carolina….. 7,318,388 27 Ohio….. 2,094.08
28 Oklahoma….. 6,859,030 28 Nevada….. 2,074.72
29 Arkansas….. 6,552,449 29 Illinois….. 2,069.40
30 Oregon….. 6,522,665 30 Idaho….. 2,053.51
31 Iowa….. 5,750,629 31 Indiana….. 2,049.42
32 Kansas….. 5,598,700 32 Kansas….. 2,039.60
33 Mississippi….. 5,432,152 33 Iowa….. 1,938.85
34 Nevada….. 5,010,443 34 Oklahoma….. 1,933.21
35 Utah….. 4,686,381 35 Montana….. 1,910.14
36 New Mexico….. 4,471,477 36 Louisiana….. 1,909.52
37 Hawaii….. 4,434,356 37 Florida….. 1,905.28
38 West Virginia….. 4,301,156 38 Utah….. 1,897.32
39 Nebraska….. 3,796,551 39 Mississippi….. 1,859.69
40 Maine….. 3,071,161 40 Arizona….. 1,853.58
41 Idaho….. 2,934,459 41 Oregon….. 1,791.45
42 Delaware….. 2,725,095 42 Georgia….. 1,727.73
43 Rhode Island….. 2,628,747 43 South Carolina….. 1,719.95
44 Vermont….. 2,242,902 44 Alabama….. 1,711.27
45 New Hampshire….. 2,022,146 45 Tennessee….. 1,678.23
46 Alaska….. 1,850,502 46 Missouri….. 1,645.49
47 Montana….. 1,787,889 47 Colorado….. 1,639.54
48 Wyoming….. 1,739,646 48 New Hampshire….. 1,543.62
49 North Dakota….. 1,403,293 49 Texas….. 1,434.16
50 South Dakota….. 1,110,035 50 South Dakota….. 1,430.46



Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Governments Division
Created: March 29 2006
Last Revised: March 30 2006

Phillip Allen
05-01-2006, 08:14 PM
Did you remember the oil taken from the south and sold back to us (by our government of course) I believe a lot of other fossil fuel comes from the south