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Memphis Mike
04-13-2006, 05:45 PM
I'd shoot this MF myself if they would fly me up there and chain him to a pole. Then again I think that may be what he wants.

It might be better to house him in the general population of one of America's meanest most notorious prisons.



MSNBC.com

Moussaoui mocks sailor grieving 9/11 losses
Al-Qaida conspirator has 'no regret, no remorse' about attacks

The Associated Press
Updated: 4:11 p.m. ET April 13, 2006


ALEXANDRIA, Va. - Confessed al-Qaida conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui said Thursday it made his day to hear accounts of Americans’ suffering from the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and he would like to see similar attacks “every day.”

Taking the witness stand for the second time in his death-penalty trial Thursday, Moussaoui mocked a Navy sailor who wept on the stand as she described the death of two of her subordinates.

“I think it was disgusting for a military person” to cry, Moussaoui said of the testimony of Navy Lt. Nancy McKeown. “She is military, she should expect people at war with her to want to kill her.”

Asked if he was happy to hear her sobbing, he said, “Make my day.”

Moussaoui said he had “no regret, no remorse” about the 9/11 attacks. Asked by prosecutor Rob Spencer if he would like to see it happen again, Moussaoui responded: “Every day until we get you.”

Convinced he will be freed
Moussaoui also said on cross-examination that he is convinced President Bush will free him before the end of his term and that he will return to London.

Prosecutor Rob Spencer tried several times to get Moussaoui to say he didn’t really believe that, but Moussaoui was insistent.

“I haven’t doubted it for one single second,” said Moussaoui, adding that the vision came to him in a dream just like his dream of flying a plane into the White House.


He also argued that he could not get a fair trial so close to the Pentagon and he criticized U.S. support for Israel.

Moussaoui testified that he believes his court-appointed lawyers are working against him and that if he’d had control over his defense, he would have argued that he should escape the death penalty and be available for a prisoner swap if American troops are captured overseas.

Moussaoui, as defiant on the witness stand as he has been at the defendant’s table throughout the trial, testified against the advice of his court-appointed lawyers and attacked them before the jury that must decide whether to sentence him to death or to spend life in prison.

Offering a lengthy explanation of why he hates Americans, Moussaoui criticized the United States’ support for Israel. He said Muslims have been at war with Christians and Jews for centuries. Israel, he said, is “just a missing star in the American flag.”

Offered quotes from the Koran
Moussaoui told jurors that Islam requires Muslims to be the world’s superpower as he flipped through a copy of the Koran searching for verses to support his assertions. One he cited requires non-Muslim nations to pay a tribute to Muslim countries.

“We have to be the superpower. You have to be subdued. We have to be above you,” Moussaoui said. “Because Americans, you are the superpower, you want to eradicate us.”

At one point, defense lawyer Gerald Zerkin asked Moussaoui if he thought he was helping his case when he testified earlier that he planned to pilot a plane into the White House on Sept. 11.

“I was putting my trust in God, so from an Islamic point of view, yes,” Moussaoui responded, acknowledging that non-Muslims might view his testimony as harmful to his case.

At several points during his afternoon testimony, Moussaoui acknowledged that he has lied when it has suited his interests throughout the course of his four-year case.


Lying to achieve martyrdom?
Defense lawyers have said Moussaoui is lying about his role in Sept. 11 — the worst terrorism attack ever on U.S. soil — in the hopes of achieving martyrdom through execution.

Moussaoui testified Thursday that “for the last four years, I have been fighting” against the death penalty. He said he considered the consequences of his previous testimony about his role in Sept. 11 and “decided to just put my trust in God, tell the truth and time will tell.”

Assailing his court-appointed lawyers, Moussaoui said: “You have put your vested interest in keeping this case in your hands, above my interest to save my life.”

Moussaoui suggested they preferred the fame that comes from handling a high-profile trial rather than seeking a change of venue to move the case away from Virginia, a state with a reputation for jurors amenable to the death penalty.

Moussaoui sought different trial location in 2002
In April 2002, when he was serving as his own defense counsel, Moussaoui filed a motion seeking to move the trial, citing an overrepresentation of government employees in the area. He also said there was more intense media attention in the northern Virginia area due to the Sept. 11 attack on the Pentagon, which is a short distance from the courthouse.

U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema, however, rejected the claim and said Moussaoui would be able to get an impartial jury.

Zerkin had asked him if he believed that his defense team was in a conspiracy to kill him. Moussaoui responded that they have been engaged in “criminal non-assistance.”

Earlier, Moussaoui’s lawyers opened his defense by seeking to convince jurors to spare his life and put him in a place from which he could never escape.

James E. Aiken, the first defense witness in the second phase of Moussaoui’s death-penalty trial, said Moussaoui would always require the highest level of supervision and would be isolated not only from the outside world but also from other prisoners.

“I don’t care how good he is ... I don’t care how compliant he is. He will be in the security envelope as long as he lives,” Aiken said.

Moussaoui’s defense team is expected to argue in the next few days that his life should be spared because of his limited role in the 9/11 attacks. They plan to present evidence that he is mentally ill and that his execution would only play into his dream of martyrdom.

Moussaoui is the only person charged in this country in connection with the Sept. 11 attacks. The jury deciding his fate has already declared him eligible for the death penalty by determining that his actions caused at least one death on Sept. 11.

Even though he was in jail in Minnesota at the time of the attacks, the jury ruled that lies told by Moussaoui to federal agents a month before the attacks kept them from identifying and stopping some of the hijackers.

Phillip Allen
04-13-2006, 05:58 PM
Over the years I have pondered the ability of folks to hate...I didn't get very much of the hate gene but there certainly are people visible (here) who have a lot more than me and it leaves me confused...Such active hate exists as to prove the existence of evil. If I met Binlauden (sp) and was able to do it, I would try to kill him right then and there...but without much rancor...more as one would destroy a dangerous serpent in the baby's room...just a thing that is necessary and a responsibility...

botebum
04-13-2006, 06:00 PM
Shoot him in the head and drag his dead, nakid ass through the streets of Kabal with a flag with OBL's face imprinted on it.

Doug

jack grebe
04-13-2006, 06:01 PM
na don't kill him......give him a sex change

Meerkat
04-13-2006, 06:02 PM
Murderers make murderers out of the nicest people... :rolleyes:

Phillip Allen
04-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Pandering to his "religous" needs in prison simply validates his hate...wrap him up in a pigskin and deny him the ability to "practice" his religon...

botebum
04-13-2006, 06:06 PM
yeah, Meer, I was a pretty decent guy before I lost a friend at the WTC

Doug

John of Phoenix
04-13-2006, 06:07 PM
I'm really surprised his lawyers didn't plead insanity for him.

God knows he is.

Meerkat
04-13-2006, 06:09 PM
yeah, Meer, I was a pretty decent guy before I lost a friend at the WTC

Doug
So, they win. :(

botebum
04-13-2006, 06:09 PM
John, it's a cultural thing, not an insanity thing.

Doug

geeman
04-13-2006, 06:14 PM
As much as i would prefer to see him put to death,,Since that seems to be his goal,,I think he needs to be in prison in general population.From what I hear ,,things have a way of ""working themselves out" there

Dolly Varden
04-13-2006, 06:15 PM
I'm really surprised his lawyers didn't plead insanity for him.

God knows he is.

every one who thinks the world should be a place different than what it is is not insane

all persons labeled as terrorists by our government are not breaking gods laws only mankinds inventions

this guys isnt a nut, hes an asshole -

botebum
04-13-2006, 06:16 PM
geeman, then you can pay to feed him

Doug

Meerkat
04-13-2006, 06:20 PM
geeman, then you can pay to feed him

Doug
Data shows that, unless he waives all his rights to appeal, it would be cheaper to keep him than to kill him, aside from which, consider the cost of dealing with all those who rally around his martyrdom.

Phillip Allen
04-13-2006, 06:21 PM
back to the pigskin...(and appologize to the pig)

geeman
04-13-2006, 06:25 PM
My point was,,,I dont think He would be a problem very long if he was in general population.

Ross M
04-13-2006, 06:41 PM
"Moussaoui also said on cross-examination that he is convinced President Bush will free him before the end of his term and that he will return to London."

I hope he entertains this delusion for a good while.

Ross

ddeaton
04-13-2006, 06:48 PM
Kill him at whatever it costs, then deal with the rest. Or just walk him down the streets of New York and see what happens.

htom
04-13-2006, 07:29 PM
His lawyers (the first group, and IIRC the second group, these are the third or fourth) did try to plead him insane. He wouldn't have it.

I'm not at all sure that he is legally insane.

I think that he should be given life, without parole, in the SuperMax, denying him the martyrdoom he's seeking.

geeman
04-13-2006, 07:42 PM
yep ,,I agree with Tom,He wants to die too much to let him do it the easy way.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-13-2006, 08:02 PM
Hahahha.... funny responses. At least the guy is true to his beliefs and desire to the end. Hey, he's gonna get the death penalty regardless of what he said.
His defiance should show some people what they're dealing with.

Uncle Duke
04-13-2006, 09:15 PM
Meerkat posits:
"it would be cheaper to keep him than to kill him"
Honest, not trying to start a personal argument here, but my understanding is that it costs about $15,500 per year to keep someone in a maximum security facility. He's what, 34?. We do that for, say, another 40 years - that becomes real money. Certainly death penalty is cheaper in current dollars.
Maybe the question is what would be the added cost of making him a martyr? And do we care?

Ross M
04-13-2006, 09:25 PM
"Hey, he's gonna get the death penalty regardless of what he said." (PMJ)

Offering odds on that, Peter?

Ross

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-13-2006, 09:26 PM
In Canada it costs about $70,000 a year to keep an inmate in maximum security. I wouldn't think it would be much different in the US in comparative dollars.

I always liked the dollar argument for capital punishment. The same argument works well for terminal patients and old people with dementia.

The cost of making him a martyr? Not much in comparison to how many martyrs the US has already made. You guys are well liked by the fundamentalist islamic community worldwide. It should pay big dividends.

paladin
04-13-2006, 09:59 PM
naw...that's why Iran wants the bomb....so they will (they think) be on equal terms....we need to carpet bomb the entire area....with pig entrails...

geeman
04-13-2006, 10:08 PM
""works welll with terminal patients and people with dementia"?,,I was going to say something to Peter,,but I dont remember what it was,,

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-13-2006, 10:17 PM
Sarcasm, Geeman... look it up in the dictionary if you're not familiar with the concept.

Killing people because it saves money is probably the lowest place one could sink to in my opinion.

Ross M
04-13-2006, 10:31 PM
No odds yet?

Ross

Meerkat
04-14-2006, 12:36 AM
Meerkat posits:
"it would be cheaper to keep him than to kill him"
Honest, not trying to start a personal argument here, but my understanding is that it costs about $15,500 per year to keep someone in a maximum security facility. He's what, 34?. We do that for, say, another 40 years - that becomes real money. Certainly death penalty is cheaper in current dollars.
Maybe the question is what would be the added cost of making him a martyr? And do we care?
The appeals process costs millions.

Sailor
04-14-2006, 01:12 AM
I read something about a General in the late 1890s or so. He took a bunch (20-30 I can't remember) of muslims and made them dig a trench (Obviously they knew they were digging their own grave) He then singled one of them out. Slaughtered a few pigs and gutted them placing the entrails, carcass and blood in the trench. He stood aside the one guy and buried the rest covered in pig guts. The last one was freed to tell the rest of them what awauted them if they got in his way again. Wish I could remember who it was. General Black somebody or other IIRC Sounds effective. Don't see modern society going for such drastic measures though.

geeman
04-14-2006, 04:33 AM
PETER,I dont need to look it up..I'm familair with the concept,Have read about it in the past,And it probably is one of the cruelest writings I ever recall reading.I can only imagine how a terminal or very elderly person felt when reading those concepts.I'm neither very elderly nor terminal (as far as I know) but my day is coming,and I remember thinking,wondering, what the world will be like when I get to that point.Society,,used to value their old ,,now their considered a liability,its a shame too,,younger people could learn so much from ther elders.Having said that,,,insurance companies put a value on human life every day,and people die due to that.

Wild Wassa
04-14-2006, 04:41 AM
"Give him his 70 virgins."

What, don't you think he deserves the hashish and honey?

John T, you are a wise soul. They should clone you ... the world would be a better place.

Warren.

Sea Frog
04-14-2006, 04:46 AM
As a matter of fact many terrorists got converted in jail, so they'd better be careful which cell they put him in. That said, the execution and the long appeals will stress the suspense and the martyrdom effect.

Sea Frog
04-14-2006, 04:54 AM
I read something about a General in the late 1890s or so. He took a bunch (20-30 I can't remember) of muslims and made them dig a trench (Obviously they knew they were digging their own grave) He then singled one of them out. Slaughtered a few pigs and gutted them placing the entrails, carcass and blood in the trench. He stood aside the one guy and buried the rest covered in pig guts. The last one was freed to tell the rest of them what awauted them if they got in his way again. Wish I could remember who it was. General Black somebody or other IIRC Sounds effective. Don't see modern society going for such drastic measures though.

Any idea where that happened? And how effective it turned out to be?

mmd
04-14-2006, 05:23 AM
Seems to me that he is trying very hard to make the US justice system make a martyr of him. In any case, he sure knows how to push your buttons.

Sam F
04-14-2006, 07:35 AM
Any idea where that happened? And how effective it turned out to be?

"Blackjack" Pershing - Phillippine-American War

See: http://www.susbloodlabs.com/homepage.html

George.
04-14-2006, 08:04 AM
na don't kill him......give him a sex change

And then drop him off in Kabul... :D

Sailor
04-14-2006, 01:06 PM
thanks Sam F. I just remember reading a little scrap of paper that was lying on the table in our library that had that story. Couldn't remember any of the details. Now that I read the link you put up I see my memory was flawed (Not surprisingly) but I did correctly recal the concepts and the gist of the situation.

Alan D. Hyde
04-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Murder is by definition an unlawful killing.

Execution is not unlawful.

Execution is therefore not murder.

Alan

Sailor
04-14-2006, 01:33 PM
Execution is not unlawful.

maybe not in indiana but in most of the rest of N. America it is.
BTW how many states still have the Death penalty?
Our military got rid of it about 5 years ago but it had not been used in decades

Alan D. Hyde
04-14-2006, 01:36 PM
Sailor, as a FEDERAL penalty, execution is lawful throughout the United States.

Alan

Sam F
04-14-2006, 01:49 PM
Sailor, as a FEDERAL penalty, execution is lawful throughout the United States.

Alan

Alan, I'm sure you know that just because something is lawful doesn't necessarily make it moral. Therefore, the law must have reference to some external truth as a foundation - otherwise it is just an arbitrary and/or utilitarian exercise of power.

Sailor
04-14-2006, 01:53 PM
Ithought it was outlawed in some states? My mistake. My statement holds true however because Canada is so much bigger than the US in terms of land area. so Federal penalty. All crimes tried in federal court are liable? or is that not correct?

Sam F
04-14-2006, 02:05 PM
thanks Sam F. I just remember reading a little scrap of paper that was lying on the table in our library that had that story. Couldn't remember any of the details. Now that I read the link you put up I see my memory was flawed (Not surprisingly) but I did correctly recal the concepts and the gist of the situation.

I couldn't remember it either! But I did remember the incident was tied to the Moro Rebellion. After that it took just a bit of searching...
I don't know any other details of that incident and I suspect that the linked website is in error when it says: "For the next 42 years, there was not a single Muslim extremist attack anywhere in the world..."
I'd bet the relative quiet in the Muslim world during that time period are not linked with Gen. Pershing's act as the cause.
Still, after 911, I couldn't help but wonder if advertising that all airline cockpit seats had been recovered with supple pigskin leather wouldn't have had salutary results. It’s the same reasoning behind the suggestion that Israeli busses start carrying pig lard as a deterrent to suicide bombers.
Strange world eh?

Sam F
04-14-2006, 02:06 PM
You know there's got to be some deterrent for suicide bombers... killing them doesn't work.

Sailor
04-14-2006, 02:09 PM
This world is all Screwed up. Priorities are so different from when Iwas a kid onlu 20 years ago. I don't think I'll ever understand it

Lew Barrett
04-14-2006, 02:16 PM
I fail to understand what makes life in solitary or in a really nasty prison population a more desireable outcome than outright execution, especially for someone who yearns to die. Isn't a mean little life in a dark hole for an isolated individual just about as miserable a fate as one can imagine for a young man short of continuous torture under the same circumstances? Is there something pleasant about this scenario I have overlooked? Why give him what he wants?
Lew

Meerkat
04-14-2006, 03:48 PM
Murder is by definition an unlawful killing.

Execution is not unlawful.

Execution is therefore not murder.

Alan
Nonsense: legal or not, murder is the willful premeditated taking of another human life. Calling one legal and one illegal is the most banal of sophistry. It's immoral.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
04-14-2006, 04:28 PM
I can't comment on execution, since our country gave it up years ago. I don't want to start a debate on America's moral standing either :D