Today we learned about weather helm on a catboat in 30 knot winds. :eek:

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Today we learned about weather helm on a catboat in 30 knot winds. :eek:

Ok I freely admit I'm addicted to sailing. Hello my name is Joe and I'm a sailaholic.:D yesterday morning ( YES in the morning ) I went out on tidbit for a morning sail. The winds were dead and I had to motor most of the way. I made it through a good chapter or two in my Chapmans book and motored back to the dock. Fairly uneventful. Went to work from 1 … till 5:00. About 4:50 I looked over at the flag on the firehouse it was flapping my adrenaline was racing :D

So down to the dock I go 5:02 I'm passing by a fellow sailor walking onto the dock. "blowing pretty good" says he AYUP says I. By now it is REALY blowing and white caps and chop are staring to form on the river. Im a bit nervous but excited to really see what she can do in a blow.

Shove off and motor out to the channel, point her into the wind so I can raise the gaff and the main . WOOOP the sail catches the wind I have just enough time to cleat everything off and pull the motor. The wind is from due south just howling up the river. The tide is also flooding in. The combination of heavy wind from the South and the tide creates very ocean like settings on the Hudson withe high rollers.

So I decide to take the easy sail and put Tidbit north and surf the rollers on the stern. About the end of the gorge at Storm King mountain the Hudson opens up to a bay. The winds are now fearce. I finally get her to track but lots of arm work out on the tiller and rope burns from the lines. And if you come off the wind just by a few degrees she immediately wants to point to a starboard not with or against the wind. She stays on the due west tack with rollers coming over her starboard rail :eek:. So after about an hr of hard work single handedy putting in a reef and then dropping the sails all together. I fired up the ol four stroke and motored back to the slip.

Sorry no photos because I know have two hands and they are fully occupied in a blow

[skuthorp]

Heh! fun Joe! Maxed out on adrenaline after that!
I once had to come home ahead of 25kts in my Mack. Too busy to be scared!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OH and NEVER Jibe a catboat on a run with a flood tide in 30 kt :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Ian McColgin]

Even small cats need three or so reefs all easily operated from the cockpit.

I think lazy liftscoming to about the end of the gaff when the sail is struck are better than topping lifts. The lifts should be controllable from a cleat on the boom right above the foreward edge of the cockpit and the three or four cleats for the clew and reefing clews should be back from that. The tack and reefing tacks can be on the port side of the house.

It shows the boat's ability that she could manage in such a Strong Breeze so overcanvassed. You've got a keeper.

Reef early and often.

G'luck

[Chris Coose]

I sort of want to relate the old bull to the young bull story, but I'll spare you.
What was that? 1964?
Treat her with the dignity she deserves. She's a cat. They were designed for close to shore fishing. Not to be man handeled, even in the unexpected.

[Figment]

Small boat lesson #1: Endeavor to plan the day's sail so that wind and tide are in your favor on the way HOME, not the way OUT. ;)

Ya, but I can relate. As a teenager I loved nothing more than taking a Sunfish out on a choppy 20+kt day and beating the hell out of myself (and the boat).

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I sort of want to relate the old bull to the young bull story, but I'll spare you.
What was that? 1964?
Treat her with the dignity she deserves. She's a cat. They were designed for close to shore fishing. Not to be man handeled, even in the unexpected.

Hey Chris Tidbit and I were both built in 1964 :)

Edited to add she, seems better built than this old bucket of bones :D
I'm sore this morning.

[Chris Coose]

Hey Chris Tidbit and I were both built in 1964 :)

Edited to add she, seems better built than this old bucket of bones :D
I'm sore this morning.

Joe, do you know the most common reason for dismasting in catboats?

Seeing you were both built in 1964 maybe I can shed some light on this that you might relate to.
Now you both have masts and I'll bet they look and perform much like they did in 1974. But despite the appearance there is supporting structure that has been used pretty hard.
I'll bet you are intimately familiar with your rigging but with the cat, I'm pretty certain, it's going to take some getting to know.

Jibes in cats ought to be done with precision, even in light air. I avoid jibes in air that would normally blow a loose hat off somebody's head. In close quarters I have broken the rule and with the knowledge that I'm in for a dismasting if I screw it up.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Chris I did it once and even though I knew it's not what your supposed to do. Knowing and preventing are two different things in tricky shifting heavy wind. One of the reasons why my hands are so raw today is because I really tried to control the boom as she came across. I reeled in the line so the boom did not have that much slack to swing fast and just burned my hands. :eek:

The thing that was very diconcerning was I could not bring her around once she grabbed that wind on the side. I let out the sail and muscled the rudder and then pulled the sail in but she kept on her port tack and would not run. With the flood tide waves come broadside she took some water over the bow and rails but never came close to getting in the cockpit. It was about that point with a reef in and still not able to control her safely I pointed into the wind and dropped the sails completely. Lashed them down, put in the boom crutch, and dropped the motor. Even motoring home in the steep chop and head wind was an adventure :eek:

[uncas]

I was supposed to be at the Ches Bay Maritime Museum one weekend. Headed out in 25 plus. Got around the point comping out of the choptank. Wind right on the nose and right into the current. Discovered that I was literally going backwards.
Decided to call it a day.
]There are times when it is wise to stay at the dock and watch the wind flapping the flag and not going out.

ps. got back to the marina where Uncas had a slip at the time. Got her in the slip without help but as I was leaving, ran into the guy that helped me get out a few hours before.
He just looked at me and said " I thought you were nuts to go out there..I have changed my mind, you were smart enough to come back in."

[Chris Coose]

I think what is important to learn here, is to recall what the river looked like when you set out.
Then when you see that again you just don't go.
Doesn't sound like an octo reef would have worked.

Always to remember for the catboater. If you think it's time for a reef you are way too late. It's a wicked powerful sail on an unusual hull design. Lots of stuff can get staved very quickly.

She needs to be treated as if you are in a nice long slow dance - otherwise Murphy cuts in.

I have just two blue water over the coaming experiences in 32 years and me and Victoria are no longer built for that kind of dancing. But I gotta say those were the times I learned the most.

Oh heah, find a way to friction the main sheet in heavy weather. Avoid cleating.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Great points Chris, thanks. Going out and this forum to gleam advice from experienced catboat sailors like yourself is priceless.

I do not think I will be doing that dance in that kind of wind again anytime soon. But this area is a tricky one to sail. It can go from glass smooth and no wind to 30 kt howler in no time. The river can get angry fast as the weather comes over the mountains. They don't call the mountain on the western shore Storm King for nothing. I have been out on a beautiful day and then all of a sudden everything turns gray green. So this lesson knowing-that it was heavy wind was a good way to practice for when that happens. But yea from now on I will be happy to sit and watch the wind from the dock.

[uncas]

Joe
Always remember, it isn't just the Hudson that can change faster than a dime hitting the ground.
Anywhere on the water, no matter where you are, you are going to be subject to potential dramatic weather changes.
Wait to you encounter "pea soup"!

[JimD]

Sounds scarey:cool:

[Ian McColgin]

How many reefs does the sail have and how is it rigged?

[CAPNBIL]

I haven't sailed a cat in many years but my recollection is that freeing the peak halyard and letting the gaff drop immediately halves your sail area in a blow. Won't this work? Capnbil

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

How many reefs does the sail have and how is it rigged?

Ian, it has two sets of reefs
Single forstay,
One Gaff peek on the starboard side
and main line on the port.

Helm control line runs through a block on a traveler through another block to 2 blocks on the boom down to a cleat on the aft side of the centerboard.

There is a set of lazy jacks that cleat off midship on the boom

Here is the rigging diagram

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid203/p661aff7978b45ab28a28a25a2e6c2254/ef9cad00.jpg

[Gresham CA]

Due west tack... winds coming out of the south at 30... rollers coming over the starboard rail... sounds like fun.

[Alan D. Hyde]

When wind & waves are high, EVERYTHING onboard happens faster...

Alan

[Keith Wilson]

Sounds like fun! Well, now's the time to pay attention to the reefing gear. One thing I learned sailing out of Berkeley is that reefing gear is just about as important as the sheet and halyards. How's it set up? Do you have permanently rigged reefing lines? Can you reef fairly easily while it's blowing like hell? Yeah, you're supposed to reef before it gets to that point, but it ain't a perfect world. I suppose a catboat won't heave to - or will it? If you have everything arranged right, you should be able to do it singlehanded in five minutes or less. You might consider single-line slab reefing, or at least running everything forward along the boom to a point where it isn't flailing around quite so much. It's only got one sail; how hard can it be? ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I haven't sailed a cat in many years but my recollection is that freeing the peak halyard and letting the gaff drop immediately halves your sail area in a blow. Won't this work? Capnbil

I tried that first and it only managed to spill a little air and make a very sloppy mess of the sail shape and harder to control the billowing sheets.

Edited to add I called Phil this afternoon to see if he wanted to go out seemed like there was a little breeze. when I got in touch with him on his cell phone he said he was down at the boat and it was blowing snot. It is always more windy down at the water. So I told him thanks for the heads up, I'm not going out in conditions like that again, he just saved me a trip down.

See so lesson learned, April sailing can be like that ;)

[uncas]

So Joe
Now that you have gotten your feet wet...umm.
When are you going to head to the CT River for some real sailing...? LOL

[John of Phoenix]

Those barn door rudders on cats just scream "WEATHER HELM".
Good story.
Great advice, too. "Oh heah, find a way to friction the main sheet in heavy weather. Avoid cleating."

[Keith Wilson]

If you need to hold the sheet in your hand in heavy wind, a Harken Hexaratchet is a great invention. A good cam cleat arrangement will allow you to dump the sheet in a puff almost as fast, and is easier on the arms. Neither are traditional. When it comes to keeping the boat upright, I say tradition be damned.


http://performancesailinggear.com/images/Harken/Hexaratchet.gif

[Ian McColgin]

Unless you want constant annoyance, you'll want to fix up the reefing system pretty much A - Z, starting with the lazy jacks which should be modified to lazy lifts. Gotta lift the boom for easy reefing.

I think it's the cat boat book that has some remarks at the end about how the modern cats just don't do this right. Even a wee boat like yours could easily end up with a dozen bits of hardware on the boom to handle the lifts (2 fairleads, 1 cleat) and the clew and reefing outhauls (turning block and cleat each, maybe a couple of fairleads each as well) and the sheet tackle.

Are the hallyards together on the starboard side? Hope so. Then the tack and reefing tack downhauls can be on the cabin to port. Lot's of gear. But once learned, it tames the cat and makes her purrrrrrr.

More by e-mail.

[Bill Perkins]

Joe if you'd raised the centerboard a bit I think she would have headed downwind for you . This moves the center of lateral resistance aft and allows the boat to pay off ; also easing the helm. Thebarndoor rudder , with it's large underwater surface , evolved to counteract the excessive weather helm of the type . It's not a meaningless ornament ; it moves the center of lateral resistance aft . Putting a reef in before you left the dock would have made everything work better , moving the center of the sail area forward as well as reducing it's area .You've got to be prepared to routinely reef that sail .I would set this up exactly as the expert designer intended , since you're lucky enough to have his drawing .

[John B]

Put the halyards together on an unstayed mast ?Surely that creates unequal loading on the mast.
Is that how catboats are normally rigged?

[ahp]

Joe, good advice here about raising your CB going down wind, also about uphill outbound and down hill home. Reef before you need to, and now you know why even some small cats have wheels rather than tillers.

[Phil Heffernan]

Plus, it helps when 2 guys are on the boat in weather like that;)

Not always possible, but it helps...

PH

[Chris Coose]

I haven't sailed a cat in many years but my recollection is that freeing the peak halyard and letting the gaff drop immediately halves your sail area in a blow. Won't this work? Capnbil

Letting off the peak halyard is called "scandalizing". It is an excellent quick trick. Compares to a schooner gaff arrangement, the cat gaff almost makes a marconi. It looks messy but can be very effective in lieu of a reef.

[George.]

I'm sore this morning.

There is no better pain than a set of sore muscles after a day of hard sailing... :)

Joe, don't say you won't go out on conditions like that again. On the contrary, do go out - and this time, try to get her under control - reef deep, pull up the board, try the advice people posted here. Get her to go to windward (you never know - some day that engine might refuse to start ;) ), and get her to bear off. Find out if there is a technique, or if you need to change your rig, add control lines, put in a deeper reef, whatever.

Why do I say this? Because from what you said, someday you might go out on a nice day and suddenly find yourself in 30-knot winds...

[Keith Wilson]

And once your boat is set up for it, sailing in 30 knots is an absolute freakin' BLAST! Why do you think so many people like to sail on San Francisco Bay? If nobody sailed in 30 knot winds. there wouldn't be a single boat out there on any summer afternoon. Balance sail area to wind strength, and you'll be surprised at what you can do.

[Kim Whitmyre]

Thanks for posting that image, Bill! Reefing enlightenment!

After struggling without any means at all on one of my first sails, I rigged up a purchase from the rear of the cockpit to the first reef. I see now that I can simplify the arrangement: run a pendant from the mainsheet tackle up to the next reef cringle per your post. Less line to trip over. . .

Boy, a feller has to be quick around here!

Oops! enlightenment interruptus! I went down to try it out and discovered that there is no good place on the mainsheet tackle to put the pendant. I have a boomless main, to clarify. So its back to my cockpit purchase. . .

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

"Hey Chris Tidbit and I were both built in 1964 :)"

Yeah, but one of you is professionally designed and built. :D

I want to touch and feel this boat one day...

(bursts into a chorus of "We shall overcome") :D

[pcford]

"AYUP says I"

Do actual human beings use this word, "ayup?" The only place I have seen it used is in the Wooden Boat Forum when an individual is attempting to appear 'boaty."

Just wondering.

[Keith Wilson]

Well, Bill's picture seems to have disappeared, so I'll post a couple of ways to run reefing lines. Her's a link to the Harken single-line systen, IMO probably the best of the bunch: http://www.harken.com/pdf/4171.pdf In the picture below, the clew line is too far forward of the boom; it need to be aft a bit to stretch the foot of the sail tight. The last thing you need when reefed is a shapeless bag.

http://www.shallowwatersailor.us/swsmanual/rigging/hen3.jpg


Here's a more complicated single-line arrangement, designed to go inside an aluminum boom.




http://www.zsparsuk.com/slrboom.gif
And here's a better drawing showing only the clew line:

http://www.zsparsuk.com/z160boom2.gif

And a fairly simple single-line arragement. Note that in all of these cases, the topping lift is critical to support the weight of the boom and take the strain off the reefing lines.

http://www.wanderer.org.uk/technical/alt%20reefing/alt_reef_system.gif

[Chris Coose]

"AYUP says I"

Do actual human beings use this word, "ayup?" The only place I have seen it used is in the Wooden Boat Forum when an individual is attempting to appear 'boaty."

Just wondering.

Deep downeast Maine you'll find natives who use it without the letter "P". Them from away might add the "p" and that's sometimes how you can tell them apart (Natives and wanna -be's, that is)
Even deeper you'll find those who use a more subtle variance,where they take in a fairly strong breath while making a slight sound that sounds like "ayuh".

[pcford]

"Deep downeast Maine you'll find natives who use it without the letter "P". Them from away might add the "p" and that's sometimes how you can tell them apart (Natives and wanna -be's, that is)
Even deeper you'll find those who use a more subtle variance,where they take in a fairly strong breath while making a slight sound that sounds like "ayuh"."

Yes, I figured it was something like that....It's like they feel like that the only real boatwrights were from Downeast Maine.

The fellows at Nivens might be surprised at that.

[Ken Hutchins]

"Do actual human beings use this word, "ayup?" "
Since you had to ask we know you are from away.:)

[pcford]

"Do actual human beings use this word, "ayup?" "
Since you had to ask we know you are from away.:)

Yeh, I suppose. Somehow, I do not feel very deprived though, thank you very much.

But the real question is why people feel compelled to use this downeast expression. It's like the only "real" boatbuilders were in Maine.

Lots of fine work done in New York and Massachusetts as well as other east coast states. 'Course....not to mention the west coast. ahem.

ayup.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

"AYUP says I"

Do actual human beings use this word, "ayup?" The only place I have seen it used is in the Wooden Boat Forum when an individual is attempting to appear 'boaty."

Just wondering.

Ayup I use it daily, and I'm not a Mainer ;)

What this thread needs is a good catboat photo in a nice blow ;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid202/p10d61d04e44cb4752454566cc8faa351/efbbf981.jpg

Edited to add: Thanks for the diagrams Keith, elegant solution for a single hand reefing.

[pcford]

No excuse for your linguistic pretentiousness, Joe.

But your taste in images is fine.

I think you were a graphic designer before you went over to the dark side, right?

[uncas]

Get some Bert and I records.
You will learn an entirely new language!

[ken_nyus]

My understanding is that in a catboat, that large single sail, with no reefs in, is the equivalent of a set of light wind sails in other boats.

With a single reef in, now you are down to a sail size suitable for a "normal" wind day.

Last summer was my first season with a catboat, and I was lucky enough to start with the first few sails on very light wind days, so I could get a feeling for working that big sail, and that full sail is a very powerful horse to control!

After a few times out on calm days, I went out on a more "normal" day, winds somewhere around 15, with a single reef in, and boy what a difference! Much more controllable, and easily reaching hull speed. I like it so much I pretty much sailed the rest of the season with a single reef in.

Even in light winds, the sail with a single reef in was still easily able to get me to hull speed.

Only in the very lightest of airs, did I put the full sail up, when I felt I needed every inch of sail that I could get.

I only went out once with two reefs in, just to try it, on a day when the winds were somewhere over 20, with little whitecaps visible in the bay. Two reefs in really gets the sail size down, and changes the balance quite a bit. I was doing ok, but when I tried to tack the boat wouldn't come around, so I gave up and dropped the sail and motored back.

[ssor]

I was just looking at the weather station history for the US Military Academy at Kingspoint NY For the 12th of April The peak gust was 18 mph out of the WSW.

LINK:


http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KNYWESTP2&month=4&day=12&year=2006

[waters'l]

Gybing those long booms around in a blow sure is a fun time isn't it? I do the same thing on my sloop, haul the main in fast and let it scream out through the hands to avoid broaching. Gloves make that work nicer. I also have a braided mainsheet that seems to be a bit smoother than the three strand through the hands. Two years on the S.F. bay and seeing my mast go faster than my boat :( have made me a beliver in reefing. Better to go a bit slow and relaxed than to have your heart in your throat all the time. Plus, I've found that many times I'll go faster and closer to the wind after I've reefed if the wind really is up.

[Tristan]

OH and NEVER Jibe a catboat on a run with a flood tide in 30 kt :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I used to use a "North River Jibe" when jibing my Bahama Dinghy (they are cat rigged) in strong wind. Let the boom all the way out, 90 degrees from the boat (rather than sheeting in for your jibe), then begin your turn to windward. When the sail and boom go over, the sail will lose all wind and luff as it comes to the leeward side. You can than sheet in. Saves losing the mast or capsizing.

[Ian McColgin]

The North River Gybe above is like the gybe I've mentioned in other threads. Two things to remember.

You must turn from running on one tack to a beam reach on the other to allow the sail to stop itself by luffing.

And you must have a plan for the miles of slack mainsheet coming across. Many cats have nothing to catch the sheet, nice simple systems, and the sheet going slack in the water will let it drag back and pass harmlessly astern.

Boats like the Wianno Senior, on the other hand, have a counter stern that's perfect for fouling the main sheet. And no one is fast enough to haul in the sheet at the end. Best to have an agile hero grabbing all parts of the sheet together and guiding them across. This takes some practice on calm days so no one looses a head or an arm.

I'm planning to rerig Marmalades sheets for convenience here. Right now it's 5:1 as shown in Brewer's plan. I'm going to put a block at the back end of the boom and double end the sheet so I end up with 6:1 if I pull one side but 3:1 if I pull both.

Back to reefing and sheeting systems. I've installed jiffy slab reefs on marconi rigs. That's the one line with moving block on the boom system shown above. They almost work. They are slightly better if the moving blocks and all are inside the boom. They are best if designed for under 10 ton boats where everything leads to the area of the hallyards, whether on deck or at the mast. They are not a good idea for cat boats with solid booms.

If you have proper lazylifts or a topping lift, then peaking up the boom while reefing will help. Heave-to, which on a cat is dirt simple with the sail luffing. Then peak the boom a bit. Then ease throat and peak hallyards as needed. Secure tack. Tension luff. Secure clew. Peak up a ways. Ease lifts. This will really tension the foot. No need for all those hanging and running blocks. Trim peak as desired. Trim the sail and counter-steer as you back down to bear off on which ever tack you choose. Tie in the pendents at leisure as the bunt will be no trouble.

With the two or three reefs needed and used lots on cat boats, organizing the gear for convienience and not being afraid of a few strings is the whole secret.

G'luck

[George.]

May I add that the McColgin Gybe works - but it does take nerves of steel, or perhaps blissful ignorance, to try the first time...

And if you do try it, make sure you put that helm hard over, and never look back. Hesitation will make it much worse.