1941 US Navy Boat...

[BrianW]

Gents,

Here's the boat, which I'm considering buying for a charter business I intend to start when I retire in two years. I need to buy a boat this year, in order to build up business before I actual do retire.

The boat is a converted US Navy Sub or Torpedo chaser. The date of the conversion is not known.

Here's part of the survey report, describing the general contruction of the vessel...


HULL is double-planed mahogany with one 3/8-inch layer and one 3/4-inch layer; FRAMING is 1-1/2 X 4-inch sawn oak, 24-inches on center interspersed with 1-1/2 X 1-1/4 bent oak 8-inches on center; TRUSSES are transverse 1-1/2 X 3-1/2 12-inches on center. Eight watertight bulkheads; two ironbark guards.
"The vessel is a converted U.S. Navy sub or torpedo chaser, of double-planked wood construction, with a raked stem with flare, a round bilge, shallow keel, a rounded transom stern, and a flat sheer. The date of the conversion is unknown, but a full main cabin with raised pilothouse has been added, resulting in a comfortable yacht of good overall appearance with comfortable accommodations."
- 3/8/00 SurveySome pictures, here's the outside...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/pd23d6188c07caf3e58861226e29f144b/fcc3d988.jpg

The 'chain locker'? The actual chain is on a windlass...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p42f0170dd7b7766d35567ad7d9c52e35/fcbea4ef.jpg

Holding tank...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/pcc246c25f52f02ff0296fed142f6a918/fcbea4f0.jpg

Potable water system. I know this tank (not in picture) is some sort of plastic...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p43e54459e8c7d8c4d24e9eb880564d2f/fcbea4f6.jpg

Genset, located outside of port engine...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/pab13f58c8ea3185b7fbff75b9e731412/fcc3d976.jpg

View of engine room...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p6c0bfade023171bcab501e9823dcb484/fcbe9842.jpg

Main electrical panel...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/pbe783ab55fe03456c063a64f46d2da9b/fcbe97a7.jpg

That's it for now, I have more shot's of the interior I'll post later. I'll also take some photos of the fuel tanks.

Feel free to blast away! :D

[John E Hardiman]

I like the hose right next to the open face main panel and knife main breaker. :rolleyes:

I'd fix that...

[J. Dillon]

Brian ,

Here"s some info on subchasers. http://members.aol.com/diodor/splinterfleet/

Good luck

JD

[John E Hardiman]

Just a note, but at 60 feet she seems small to have been a Subchaser. More likely a torpedo retriever or a yard patrol craft.

[Mr. Know It All]

Thank you for posting the pictures. smile.gif

I'd pay for a ride on that boat. :D

Sounds like the perfect retirement to me BW.
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Scott Rosen]

You may want to spend some time looking into the Coast Guard requirements for wooden charter vessels, if you haven't yet. It would be a real shame to buy that boat, spend a ton of time and money fixing it up, just to have the CG say "no go."

[Mr. Know It All]

Good advise Scott. This website should help---->

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g%2Dm/nvic/7%5F95/n7%2D95.htm

Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

P.S. After looking at your profile I would guess that maybe the USCG is the least of your problems. :D

[ 01-22-2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

[BrianW]

Well, just because I'm in the Coast Guard, doesn't mean I can ignore the rules. smile.gif

From what I can tell, operating with a '6 Pack' license doesn't require any special inspection requirements other than the normal safety stuff for larger boats. Things like...

life vests
life rafts
fire protection
bilge alarms
etc...

The comment on the garden hose next to the electrical panel is a good one! Gotta check that out.

I was hoping to hear some comments on the wiring, hoses, pipes, condition of the hull, etc. I do realize that the pictures aren't the greatest, and that it's nearly impossible to judge a boat with just pictures.

Are there any other glaring safety issues (beside the water hose) that you guys see in the photos?

Here's a problem I found. This exhaust pipe obvious;y has a leak hiding under this 'bandaid', and it's dripping on the starboard, gearbox...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p6dcfcae6c28072314e449308650f5109/fcbdcd81.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p94607135afc6ee9f1312253fa1f3370d/fcbdcd84.jpg

It's a 'no-brainer' I know, but I thought I'd share it here.

[BrianW]

Here's some interior pictures.

Forward V berth...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/paa3bd90f5e955d7b7abdce1ba1973c7c/fcc3d97d.jpg

port side stateroom (looking aft)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/pc4245489b7fe36c1ce25248833e0a16e/fcc3d981.jpg

starboard stateroom (also looking aft)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p4b6f52cf49ec8f8d22521a82ba52759c/fcc3d97a.jpg

One of the two heads (both are identical w/showers)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/pe78289b5f418a14451f1ead368b635dc/fcc3d978.jpg

saloon/galley combo (looking forward)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/pe1af40164ebca493ed10996c8d346645/fcbe94db.jpg

galley, starboard side, looking slightly aft
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid48/p7fbf9c4e77f76847a97e35f73b2d78c4/fcbe957f.jpg

wheelhouse
http://images.yachtworld.com/9/2/2/922254_3.jpg

wheelhouse berth
http://images.yachtworld.com/9/2/2/922254_4.jpg

That's a ton of pictures! Hope I haven't overdone my welcome!

[ 01-23-2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: BW ]

[mhoffman]

You might want to go to the library and look at some past issues of Janes Fighting Ships- they usually list tender craft so you could get a date of conversion from that perhaps. Also, the Navy only runs a couple of torpedo ranges, and most of the folks that operate them are long term employees- tracking down a name and number should be easy and then you could get some first hand knowledge of the boat you are looking at.
Best of luck-
Matt

[Aletta]

Looks like it could be either a 63' Rescue Boat, MK 3 or 4, a 63' Torpedo Retriever, or a 63' Noise Measuring Boat. All are 63' 4" by 15' 4" by 4' 4" and around 64k lb full load displacement. Main differences seem to be power and topside configuration. The profiles in my book (Boats of the United States Navy NAVSHIPS 250-452 of May 1967) are very similar to the hull in your pictures.

Something to check into is stability since all three hulls shown have only minimal accomodation above the sheerline, ie a very small deckhouse and handling gear. Looks like your prospect has had two decks built after the fact. You could do a quick incline to get a rough estimate I suppose but going into charter you'll want drawings and a naval architects calculations I'd imagine.

And a cursory look at the photos suggests a whole slew of "sailor-alts" (not accomplished by the USN) that need to be undone and redone right (plumbing, electrical, CHT, engine work).

[Rocky]

The hose is for putting out electrical fires! (I know it's a stupid comment but I couldn't resist - slim pickins this morning) :D

[ 01-23-2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Buster ]

[Allen Foote]

Before you spend a dime....check into the state regulations concerning "dirty diesels". There is a program called the "Carl Moyer Grant Program" that will be of interest to you. You may not be "allowed" to run those detroits legally.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

Replace the black electrical tape on the wheel spoke with a turks head.

[BrianW]

Allen,

Thanks. I looked up that program, and it appears to be for California.

This boat will be operated in Alaska. The State doesn't even inspect charter boats (yet) leaving that job to the USCG.

[whb]

Seems to be some rust indicating that it was fastened with iron. Does the survey talk to the condition of the planking and fastening. When was the last time she was hauled and was a survey done at the time.

A nice looking boat

Howard

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Geez Brian- whata wonderful project. OK so whats the story of her purchase- for all of us who will never get the chance. You should know about the British Military Powerboat Trust located in Cracknore Hard, Marchwood, in Hampshire. These guys restore and use WWII vintage Motor Torpedo Boats, Patrol Auxiliaries, and assorted gunboats. It seems one guy got hold of a 64’ High Speed Launch and restored it only to find that it had actually taken part in the evacuation at Dunkirk in 1940. In fact- he had it ready for the year 2000 observation of the 60th anniversary of Dunkirk. The press had a field day with this, and the Queen even participated in the honors ceremony. All this led to registered charity status, public subscriptions, and their
establishment in the large and aging tin boat shed in Marchwood. As a sign of their success thus far, their facility is crammed with 23 vessels in various stages of restoration- the largest of which is 71½’. Quentin showed us around and I found that we speak the same language. I have done this sort of stuff before- this is where I belong. These are manly projects that portray to the public a poignant reminder of the courage of those who fought the Nazi criminals to a standstill and then rolled over them. I asked if they were hiring. Check them out.

[Dave Fleming]

Some words from one who has had a little bit of experience with the USCG ( Cape May 1959) and later with the CG in their role as vessel inspector. You should have papers for the inclination test done when the previous owner used the vessel under Subchapter T or '6 pak' rules. If not then you are going to have to have it done bye an experienced outfit that does this.
Ayup, setting concrete filled oil drums or concrete blocks on the after deck and moving them about takes a crane, certified weight figures for those drums and blocks and the CG present to record the figures.
Where is the vessel now? I would strongly suggest nay urge a good survey bye a wooden vessel surveyor. In the PacNoWest our very own RGM should be able to supply you with some leads.

Comment: me personally I would not think of a wooden vessel for charter use especially one of that age and obvious faults in the machinery spaces. If you can see that yourself imagine what you cannot see at this time.

[Bob Cleek]

I've known both the ASRs ("Air Sea Rescue") and a torpedo retreiver. (In case anybody is wondering, the retreiver was for picking up spent PRACTICE torpedeos! LOL) If she is a retreiver, of which I expect very few were built, she would originally have had an open transom with a ramp and davit amidships for hauling the dummy torps aboard. The retreiver conversion I know is not your boat. It had the ramp removed and the transom sealed up. The surplus ASRs, of which many more were built, were frequently converted to pleasure use as well. They had flat transom sterns. If your boat has a rounded stern, she may well be a retreiver conversion.

There are a number of reasons why I would advise great caution in proceeding with your plan. First, there is the condition of the boat. As we have so often said in here, GET A DAMN SURVEY! Worth the money and you will need it for insurance anyway if you buy the boat. From the pictures you show, I would be leery of the boat because, while we really cannot determine condition from pictures alone, it is evident that someone who didn't know what they were doing has been monkeying around with her. If she got poor attention in the engine room, what might be wrong with the rest of her? Ya folla? That's always red flag numba one.

Second, military conversions are notorious problem boats. The cabin appears nicely done, but a whore in makeup is still just a slut. A lot of fools tricked out dirt cheap surplus boats after the war and some put a lot of money into doing so, which yards were only too happy to charge them. The frills alone don't make her a good boat. Moreover, if she has had a new ass end put on her, that is a prime spot for rot to grow. (And the picture of the breasthook area in the forepeak isn't exactly reassuring, is it?) Only a really first rate rebuild job would minimize the potential problems inherent in any conversion. Too much stuff slapped on top of other stuff in that sort of conversion. Works for a while, but not for the long haul and this boat has been this way for a while... long enough for problems to start.

Also, as said, you have problems with the stability of the craft. She wasn't designed for the configuration she has now. No way. These were relatively cheaply built ("expendable") lightweight high speed boats. You know how the military treats their boats, particularly anything of WWII vintage. The damn thing is over sixty years old, and who knows how many seventeen year old Iowa farm boys beat her to death over the years! Add the windage of that superstructure and its weight and you've got a whole new waterline and center of gravity. (Odds are you'll find a ton or two of lead in her bilges.)

Finally, and for your planned use as a commercial vessel this is critical, these vessels were designed for speed on a cost be damned basis. I couldn't tell you what the originals had in them for mills, but the old similarly designed PT's had aircraft engines and burned av-gas. That's how they achieved their designed performance perameters. So... they get turned into pleasure boats and repowered with slow turning diesels and what you have is the opposite of "the old race horse behind the plow" effect. You have a very poor performing under powered high performance hull. Your fuel economy, always an essential consideration in a commercial vessel, will suck. If not, thanks to the diesels, your performance will suck because the semi-planing hull is going to be moving too slowly to perform as designed. This is especially true in any kind of seaway.

If you are looking to run a six-pac in Alaska, I'd sure be looking at a used troller or the like. Find a traditionally designed heavy displacement hull with a slow turning diesel. That will give you a far less expensive ride and a much more stable and seaworthy craft for the conditions you are likely to regularly encounter.

Here's an umbrella for your parade... LOL

[BrianW]

Gents,

Man, what an education!

While I knew I'd hear about wiring, plumbing, and wood issues, I didn't expect all the info on history, hull design, and stabiblity.

There isn't any story on the purchase of the boat. I simply saw it here in town with a 'for sale' sign in the window. It's been for sale at least 2 years, if not longer. I've exchanged e-mails with the owner, and had a tour of the boat with the young man who keeps an eye on it.

It is listed for $120,000, but it's already down to $100,000, and I would offer $90,000 if I decide to buy. I have a copy of the summer 2000 survey. It was done by the best surveyor in town, and there weren't any hull or supersturcture issues mentioned. Just a caution about the generator battery box, which has been fixed.

The boat would absolutely be hauled, and re-surveyed, before I make any offer. But, since I would be paying for the survey, I wanted to be sure that I really wanted the boat before I paid for the survey. At that point, a negative report would either cause me to change my mind, or help negotiate a lower sale price.

The shallow keel has been a concern of mine. I'm used to seeing much deeper keels on the boats around here. Client comfort is a major concern, and a tippy boat would not be a good thing.

My plans for now, are to hold off purchasing this boat. It's perfectly set up inside for a charter business, and that makes the boat very appealing. But, I can't afford to make major repairs, or alterations, for the next few years.

Given the large numbers of boats for sale these days, I'm going to continue to shop around. While it's not a popular choice on this board, I have my eye on a 53' steel hulled fishing boat. It has twin Cummings, a rather large cabin, a nice bait shack which could be converted to sleeping quarters, and a nice deep keel.

Please forgive the picture...
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/0/0/7/8/1007890_2_thumb.jpg

I did read the one post on 'wood vs steel' and realize that there's no free lunch with either material.

If I come across another wooden boat which suits my needs, I'd like to make another post like this one, as you guys have been extremely helpful.

Thanks!

[Ken Liden]

Your potential boat could not be a 63 ASR. The ASR's had a reverse sheer and was double diagonal planked with frames on 10" centers and was hard chined.

Lots of wood boats (including military) are used in the charter trades. You are correct that for a six pack license does not require other than an ordinary safty gear. However over 6 persons requires that you move into the realm of inspected vessel.

I own a large wood military boat myself built in 1943.

[David N.]

whew , kind of have the idea , that first boat will go thru a thousand dollar bill , like an elephant sucking peanut's !! .

If there is a whole bunch of " new best friend's " following you around , with blank work order's , RUN !! .

Hop on the blue canoe and ride down to Seattle , making stop's along the way , and pound the dock's for a day here and there . It would not even suprise me if you found something in Juneau or Petersburg ( my fav. ) or Ketchikan ( I liked all the plane's and boat's on the water at the same time ) or even Canada , B'ham ( Bellingham ) would be a great place to look ( lived and worked there a few years , buried my dad there too ) and Seattle look no futher !! .

Damn think I will just get back to the Ocean , I'am having a hard time being a land-lubber

[Scott Rosen]

A boat in that condition would make me look long and hard at the dollars and cents of the charter trade. I don't imagine there'd be much profit in operating that boat with just a 6-pack. Even after she's rebuilt, your maintenance costs will be significant. The insurance will cost you a fortune, if you can even get it for charter use on that vessel. And the lack of "luxury accomodations" will probably not allow you to charge premium rates for the charters.

The dream of buying a nice old boat for the charter trade is a good dream. Unless you can afford to operate at a loss, you may want to study up on what other charter-boat owners are doing and get a handle on the economics of it all.

[David N.]

You might try WWW.legendaryyachts.com (http://WWW.legendaryyachts.com) , I dont know if they still have it , but they did have a 43' Monk planning boat for sale , it needed a little work , the price was right and the hull was sound .

[Bob Cleek]

Scott's suggestion is the wisest of all. Go make friends with the guys who are already doing what you are planning. Go to school on them. Check out what boats they are using. This isn't the time to "think outside the box." No way. Most guys I know who have ever made anything on a six-pac license just ran party boat operations... no overnights. No fancy accommodations. Basically a decent fish boat with the addition of maybe a door on the head! Remember, every dollar of overhead is a dollar of profit out of your pocket. What those skippers sell is their local knowledge and fishing expertise, not the fancy accommodations of their vessels. Besides, anybody I know who ever carried passengers on a boat considered them a royal pain in the ass! LOL

[Dave Fleming]

I ran a yard building both 'yachits' and 6 paks out of Aluminum for several years down here was yard foreman. The 6paks were just under the regulation size limit at about 95 feet LOA. They were expressely designed for long distance fishing trips ie:1000 mile+ round trips to Clipperton Island and that region of the Pacific. Cost of vessel ready to sail, complete with all items necessary including pots,pans, TVs, mattresses, sheets, blankets, range, freezer, etc.. was in the 3 million USD area. Staterooms were a joke, the Black Hole of Calcutta would have been more luxurious than one of those accomodations. Just enough room to fit 2 bunks narrow and no longer than 6 feet 4 inchs each. No portholes/windows just an airconditioner outlet from the central unit and god help if that went on the 'fritz' down in the warmer waters!
But the owners sure packed them on board. Fishing fanatics and that they are. Full fare up front with reservation was/is required. And that could be as much as a year in advance. Nice to have that money in an account, making money for you before you need to use it for the trip,eh.
Crew was, Capt, Mate/Engineer, deckhand,cook/steward/ess. Mate and deckhand worked with the passengers when fishing, setting hooks, collecting live bait from the bait well on aft deck, fixing reels, all that type of service plus loading, gutting and packing catch in cold storage lockers, actually freezer lockers which is why the Mate had to be an engineer mechanic type too. Keep all that machinery running or else the ****e would hit the fan. Those well paying customers would not be happy if their limit of Yellowfin, Marlin, etc. would be lost due to freezer brakedown. Business seems profitable but very expensive to operate. You supply all food but they bring their own booze. Water supply was very limited, no watermakers at that time were installed. No room in the engine space. What with 2 engines, a generator, compressors for freezer and air conditoners, a spare generator of modest capacity, bilge pumps, double bottom loaded with diesel fuel. The water supply was a single tank up in the forepeak and made the bottom of the crews bunks properly covered of course. Don't recall its capacity but couldn't have been much over 1000 or so US gallons. Not much for a 7 to 14 day trip into tropic waters but plenty of cold beer was available to the passengers, included with cost of trip. All displacement calculations had to be done bye a registered Marine Engineer or accredited Naval Arch.. Each vessel had to be tested for inclination with as I already said, the USCG present and done bye an outfit that specialized in it with certified weights and equipment.

[BrianW]

Gents,

Thanks again for the help.

This is a hunting charter operation, not a fishing charter.

Local prices range from $2500 to $4500 for 7days/6nights per hunter. The more expensive ones are fully guided hunts. My operation will not include guides, as I'm not licensed to guide in Alaska. I will be operating under the States 'Transporter' license program. I can provide 'transport' to the hunting area, acommodate the hunters onboard, and provide rides to the beach. The hunters may also use my skiff to hunt on their own.

The rest of the Summer is free for wildlife cruises, or providing a 'floating lodge' for local day charter operators looking to expand their own buiness horizons. There are several local reasons why a 'day fishing' charter captian would be interested in such a service, and some have even said it's a good idea.

Then comes late Fall, and Blacktail season.

The sea conditions do come into play while enroute to the hunting areas. but, once we're 'inside' (we are talking about the Inside Passage) most the time will be spent in protected waters. Most of the hunters will be brought in by float plane, saving the expense of fuel and time between hunts.

Hope that gives a small idea of what I'm planning on doing, and perhaps answer some of the questions that were brought up here.

I don't mind sharing my plans, since you guys have been so helpful answering my wooden boat questions.

Thanks again!

[ 01-25-2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: BW ]

[Bob Adams]

If you want to make it into an inspected vessel, I'd think twice. I service several wood charter yachts in the Baltimore area, and I can tell you the USCG has made it very difficult to certify a wooden vessel. This is called the "El Toro effect".When a neglected iron nailed party fishing boat, the El Toro lost a plank, then the Coaties botched the rescue,they reacted by putting rediculous specifications on wooden vessels. I have been working on a 75' Trumpy burnout that the owner, an experianced wood charter operator, is considering throwing in the towel as the Coast Gaurd has made it clear they want no wooden inspected boats. Good Luck

[imported_Krueg]

Not to hijack the thread, but... Dave would you care to name any of the long range aluminum vessels you built? From the sound of it, I would know the name of at least a couple. Just curious...

For any of you from different parts of the world, some of these long range fishing vessels have almost a legendary status here in southern California.

[Dave Fleming]

Polaris,Royal Polaris, Polaris Supreme, Red Rooster etc..
For Seaforth, Poole (owner of the yard), Lopreste and others.
Yachits, Bobara, Realty, to name a couple

[ 01-27-2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[imported_Krueg]

I had a feeling. Thanks Dave. That's quite a list and certainly something to be proud of.

[Dave Fleming]

Sooo, which one/s you been out on? And what did you think of my description of the living quarters. Any comments on the seakeeping abilities of the vessels?

[imported_Krueg]

Dave, I really only know these boats by reputation. I've seen all of them, but alas, haven't had the privelege of fishing them. I fish out of San Diego a few times a year, but usually on 1 or 2 day trips or from private boats. Most of the fishing I do is from Dana Point where my little fiberglass (gasp! ;) ) skiff is docked.

Therefore I can't comment on the seakeeping abilities of the aformentioned vessels. As to the staterooms, if they're pretty typical I'd say you're assesment is accurate. Nothing like showing up a little late for the trip with nothing but the foreward bunks leftover. If it was a rough trip and your bunk is in the bow, you could count on kissing the bunk right above you a few times. Not exactly conducive to getting a good night's sleep.

Eric