HATZ Diesel for inboard (was: Air cooled gas inboard)

[dmede]

For boats like the Poulsbo (http://www.boat-links.com/DepoeBay/04/Poulsbo-09.jpg) or Victor Slocum (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/VictorSlocum.html), what type of motor would be used?

I think Atkin specifies some kind of air cooled gas inboard but no model info. Are there Briggs and Straton like motors that can be used in these boats? Any that are made new? What about reverse gears? What can be had for under $2k?

Im just dreaming of the day I might build a boat like Victor Slocum but I can't stop my curiosity about how to do the motor. I know I can't afford a deisel and it seems there a quite a few of these small inboard boats out there with lawn mower like engines in them (Atkin seems to spec them for many of his small boats).

dave

[ 03-31-2005, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[RonW]

Well these are not speed demons, So why not consider electric.

[dmede]

Well I guess I want to build to the design which is for a small inboard. Plus I like the little ship aspect of it.

Fred, thats an interesting rudder design. Looks a but complicated. the reverse gear is probably not too important but I figure if Im going to go through the trouble of installing the inboard I want the most flexability I can get.

It is great to just think about. I love the idea of idling away at the tiller seat in Victor Slocum while the motor puts me along the delta or across the bay. A slow ride but I bet its a blast.

PS I found these little beauties on Northern Tool: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=347&R=347

They (Hatz) have a marine reverse gearbox as well (whatever that is). Anybody know about these guys?

[ 03-25-2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[ssor]

I have given consideration to using a small aircooled gas engine in a small boat and for a long while was hung up on the reverse gear idea. It finally occured to me that motor cycles don't have reverse gears, the rider just walks them back a few feet when the need demands. So, on small boats a gentle push with an oar or a boat hook will back you out of almost any tight spot. The matter of a clutch is more troubling and I think that a vee-belt drive with a movable tensioner would serve that need. Flame arresters on the carburator intake are easy. Gravity feed fuel tanks are not allowed so an engine driven fuel pump is in order. A jacketed dry exhaust.s permissable.

[Keith Wilson]

No, motorcycles don't have a reverse gear, but they do have brakes. The reverse gear on a powerboat isn't mainly for backing up. The Kitchen rudder is a good idea IMHO, if it's made accurately and strong enough.

[dmede]

The more I think about it the more I would agree, reverse is not needed. My budies 15hp outboard in his 15' dingy has reverse but it's rearly used, except as a brake when coming in. Since this is a heavier boat that might still be a nice feature.

Hatz has several gearbox options, one is a direct drive gearbox with reduction gears and clutch.

They have a fuel pump, but Im curious as to why it could not be gravity fed?

[ 03-25-2005, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[ssor]

If a fuel line breaks and you have a gravity feed system you end up with a tank full of gasoline in the bottom of the boat. But if the line breaks between the fuel pump and the tank, the engine just stops.
Mike, Nice looking set-up. I don't think that I have ever heard of a failure with an engine mounted fuel tank. But out on the front lawn it wouldn't be much of a problem. A fire on a boat is not a place I want to be.

[dmede]

Mike, is that gas or diesel? What brand? What does a custom flywheel entail (bellhousing fab also)?

[Ian McColgin]

Study up or get an NA to list the stuff y ou need to remember - backfire arrester, carborator overflow protectio, remote fuel fill, and on and on. The standards are quite exact and you don't want to be creating a hazard.

[ssor]

Mike, It looks like you just bring the propeller shaft and stern tube up above the water line so that you eliminate the need for a packing gland and also the deck then would be self draining. Your set-up looks well thought out. I would guess that this is not the first one of these systems that you have put together and I will be happy to shut-up and listen when you have time to tell how you did it.

Ross in Bel Air

[coelacanth]

George Buehler describes several such set-ups in his book "Backyard Boatbuilding". might be worth a look .
I have a 5hp Briggs powered Go Devil pushing my 14' tin ducky boat- bog slow but it'll "git 'er done"

[ssor]

Nice work, Mike! smile.gif This is a different boat then the one in your earlier posts.

A water cooled exhaust is indeed much quieter.

I was running a little diesel when the impeller went south and you didn't need the engine alarm to tell you that there was a problem.

[ 03-27-2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[dmede]

What do people here think of the HATZ air cooled diesels for use in a small boat?

http://www.hatz-diesel.de/englisch/produkt/1b20_e.htm

They appear to be fully self contained, with flywheel and attached fuel tank. It idles at 800 rpms and tops out at about 3600 rpms. Would that need to be reduced to run a prop? How can I tell what HP is appropriate for a given boat? What else do I need to be thinking about interms of using this motor in a boat? (reverse gear, reduction gears, exhaust routing, stuffing boxes, shaft angles etc.)

Dave

[ 03-28-2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[Ian McColgin]

I did not mean to cast aspersions on anyone's work. Certainly the examples we've seen are both handsome and shipshape. However I've seen, been party to in my youth, some examples of good hull work coupled with a cavilier approach to mechanics.

I'm a fan of slow turning air cooled myself and Granna's 20 tons are moved about by a 1942 vintage 10KW Deutz.

[ssor]

Mike, I have a single cylinder Volvo Diesel and yes it does have vibration but not to the point of rattling the dishes. There is nothing quite as smooth and quiet as a twin cylinder gas engine. I just didn't want the risk of gasoline on the boat.
When I was stationed in the Philippine Islands the local fishermen powered their bankas with what appeared to be three hp Briggs engines direct coupled to about a 6 inch two blade prop.
Ross

[Dan McCosh]

FWIW--a couple of observations about engines in general. Engines are affordable, even cheap, when they are made in huge volumes for mass markets. Marine engines are expensive mainly because the market is so small they are virtually custom. What is 'custom" is usually the cooling system, transmissions and odds and ends such as the couplings. Any marine installation needs a custom cooling system, whether air or water. The basic blocks of "standard" marine engines are likewise cheap, until you add these bits and pieces. Bottom line is that a proper installation of an oddball engine usually ends up costing more than one developed for the purpose. An exception would be the ability to make the cooling manifolds, exhaust, gearboxes, etc. yourself. I would be looking for an old marine engine, such as the small atomic 4 or small Gray, and thinking of rebuilding it.

[dmede]

So the HATZ engines (I may start a seperate post about them later) seem to fit somewhere in between what you might think of as a small diesel and a small air cooled gas engine (like a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine). The HATZ 1b30 costs around $1600, is a 6.8hp diesel and weighs 72lbs! Atkins specs a 6hp "Palmer" for the Victor Slocum so the power is on target but I imagine the HATZ is much lighter.

The HATZ has an engine mounted tank and recoil start on the flywheel so in order to use it in a boat like the Slocum I need throttle controls, transmission, coupler and shaft right? HATZ has the controls and a bunch of transmissions (not sure which if any would work). Where do I go for shafts, props and couplers?

Do I need to plumb its side mounted exhaust away from the engine? As its built it has the muffler right on the side of the engine, just like a lawn mower. Does this need to be routed away from the center of the boat?

Dave

[Dan McCosh]

Air cooling can be made to work OK, but the basic problem is that it takes a lot of air to remove the same heat a little water can do. Running a sustained high load on an engine creates the maximum amount of heat. I would think that a marine installation would need some good ducting and fans to make it reliable over the long haul. This isn't impossible, but the installation could be complex compared to a few cooling hoses.

[dmede]

Originally posted by Dan McCosh:
Air cooling can be made to work OK, but the basic problem is that it takes a lot of air to remove the same heat a little water can do. Running a sustained high load on an engine creates the maximum amount of heat. I would think that a marine installation would need some good ducting and fans to make it reliable over the long haul. This isn't impossible, but the installation could be complex compared to a few cooling hoses.What about in the case of the Victor Slocum (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/VictorSlocum.html) where the engine is essentially open to the air? It will get a wood cover but will be mostly open at the back for the tranny and shaft, and open at the front for the pull start.

Cooling air required for the HATZ is 160 cu.ft/ min at 3000 rpms. There is a cooling fan incorporated into the fly wheel structure but I don't how much of that 160 cu.ft/min it generates and how much must be from ambient air flow.

[chergui]

I've posted this before but it is appropriate here again so.. I was also considering the Hatz diesel last summer. There is no existing gearbox that will attach to that engine. I asked Hurth and they said it needs either a flywheel or a bell housing. So you would be making the bell housing yourself. If you can do it, that is very cool, but it needs to be done right to prevent vibration from wrecking everything. The Hatz requires an external blower. The engine specs say the size of blower you need. I have one for my old air cooled enigne that I replaced with the water cooled engine. You can get them from companies like Jabsco. If the engine is down below, the air blows into your boat creating a very hot environment. It is surprising how much heat needs to be dissipated, and how hot your boat gets as a result.

[dmede]

Chergui, how did you determine that it needed a flywheel and that there were no gearboxes for it?

HATZ lists several gearboxes on its website (but does not mention what engines they are compatible with), one is even called a "marine reverse gearbox". The specs for the 1b20 1b30 and 1b40 all say there is a flywheel on the starter side, its what rotates as you pull the cord. Does the engine still need another flywheel on the output side or something? They also list a cooling fan as being part of the front houseing, it pulls in its own air. Jsut curious what other info you have, this is all my own reading of thier material online so I may be misinterpreting.

I'm waiting to hear back from them on a few of these questions. II'll post what I find out.

Thanks,
dave

[chergui]

Hi Dave. I was in contact with a company here in Vancouver that sold these engines. The guy tried hard to find a solution and he handled the contact with Hatz. Maybe it wasn't worth his effort for the sale of the engine and gave up, I don't know. Hopefully you will have better luck.

There are only 3 companies I know of that make marine gearboxes: Hurth (most popular), New LC (too big), and Koysan in Turkey. Most go with Hurth because they are the smallest and they are very good. I emailed Hurth and they told me what I told you. Their gearboxes couple to an engine with either a flywheel or a bell housing. There is no way to attach their gearbox to the stub of a crankshaft that is used as the power take off point (PTO) on the Hatz engine. The Hatz has a flywheel on the starter side, but that is of no use because it is in the front of the engine I believe inaccesible. The PTO is the tiny stub of a crankshaft at the back of the engine. Take a look at this doc and tell me how you could attach a gearbox to that engine (http://www.hatz.com/ba_el/1b/b_englisch_epa.pdf).There are numerous pictures of a small tapered stub that show it well. Also look up Hurth's website to see how their gearboxes couple to an engine. Hurth has standard couplings for shafts that they sell for this engine for various industrial uses. The guy I was talking to sent me an additional 16 pages about the engine and various things you could buy for it that wasn't on their web site.

Most "marine" engines come with a bell housing so that you can attach a gearbox (Hurth) to it. The engines are made specifically to get around these problems. My Farymann had a Hurth gearbox attached to the bell housing of the engine when I bought it. I'm sure there are people out there mechanically inclined enough to come up with their own solution for this though.

I had forgotten about the fan on the Hatz diesel. I doubt it is meant to replace an external blower. If the engine is hidden under stairs down below for example, you will probably still need something to move the air out of the engine "compartment" and into a bigger area like your boat. My old air cooled engine had a blower in the stairs near the engine behind them. For the boats you mentioned I doubt this would be a problem, the engine looks to be almost outside anyway.

Good luck.

[dmede]

Thanks Cherugi, that clears it up a bit. In this installation, where lawn mower motors are often directly liniked to the prop and shaft, I think the HATZ may still be a viable option. It sounds like your contact never figured out that HATZ themselves makes gearboxes for these motors.

http://www.hatz-diesel.de/type/add_equip.pdf

And as mentioned, it will be almost in the open, no need for a blower above deck.

I do need to get the specs on the add on components to be sure it will work however. It's in the mail I think. If there is a gearbox for the 1b30 that has the right reduction with reverse it should be a good setup. But first I gotta build the boat ;)

[chergui]

I didn't know Hatz made gearboxes. We told them exactly what we needed and they didn't mention they had them. I wonder if those gearboxes are new in the last year. Anyway, that's good to know. Too bad they don't have a picture of them. I'd like to see how they attach them to the crankshaft.

Jon

[ssor]

Lister-Petter makes small aircooled diesel engines that take a standard bellhousing.
I would think that if you were planning an air cooled engine below deck, you would want to plan for a powerful ventilation system for the engine compartment. The funnel on ships wasn't just an exhaust stack, it served as cooling air ducting for the engine room and supplied combustion air for the propulsion system.

[JimJ]

Just did a bit of googling to see what is available here downunder

http://www.shannonboats.com.au/engines.htm

This site talks about a "Donk" an engine manufactured here in OZ.

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3441/2740.html

I believe they are made in Bundaberg, but I have not been able to find much more information.

[ahp]

About Reverse Gears, a bit of history as an inspiration:

According to my Dad, the common inboard auxillary engine about 1910, was a slow speed two cycle with manual spark advance. To reverse you slowed down, then advanced both throttle and spark. Ninty percent of the time the engine would reverse direction.

[dmede]

ahp,

That reminds me of the Farely Mowat book, "the boat that wouldn't float". It had a make or break engine I think and as he tells it, it was as likely to start up in reverse as it was in forward so you never knew what way you'd be going until she cranked over!

cherugi, the USA dealer emailed me to let me know she was passing my request for info on additional equipment to the local distributor here in CA. I'll post what I find out if I ever get it.

[ssor]

About 1952 Dad took the family on vacation to Rangley, Me. Someone loaned us an outboard motor that had no gear shift, reverse was accomplished by throttling the engine way down and shifting the magneto plate with a lever, the engine would buck a little and start running backwards. As I recall the lever moved through about 120 degrees.
Others older than I might remember these.
Ross in Bel Air

[dmede]

An update for anyone who was interested:

I finally got the info I needed from HATZ. According to thier US reps the items they list as "Additional Equipment" online (including their gearboxes) are either not for use with the B series engine or are actually refernces to potential uses for the engine and not products made by HATZ. In some cases the item lsited as a gearbox is actually just the adapter needed to make a thrid party gear box work. So there ya go, no easy solution, once again :D

I do think these would still make great marine inboards for open air cooled installations. Better than a lawn mower motor. The only obstacle seems to be hooking up some kind of gearbox. I would want neutral at least, with a gear reduction. And reverse would be optimal.

I think a direct drive installation could be easily accomplished but would not be ideal without neutral.

Thanks for playing.

dave

[StevenBauer]

How about a feathering prop. You could get neutral and reverse that way. Isn't that the setup on Victoria, Chris?

Steven

[Dave Lesser]

dmede,

Can you provide the contact info for the US rep? Do you know if they are marketing the air cooled gensets in the US?

[dmede]

Well Mike, the boat is the Victor Slocum (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/VictorSlocum.html). Ive referenced it a few times here. The Poulsbo was mentioned only becasue its a similar set up and I know some people here already have experince with it. The designer, John Atkin, is dead so he won't be much help.

The boat is specd for a 6hp Palmer BH. Not sure what your on about... when I say a direct drive install could be easily accomplished I mean that hooking the engine up directly to the prop shaft with no transmission, as many boats of this size and vintage often were, could be easliy done with less fuss than trying to mate an existing marine transmission to this engine. "Not ideal without neutral" just means not ideal for me, as in I would prefer to be able to start the motor and not be instantly engaged. I did not mean it would not be ideal for the installation.

What are you refering to as my "insistance of a traditional hookup"? Both direct drive and via a gearbox would be "traditonal" for a boat like this. And I don't think I am insisting on anything. I don't even own the plans yet, this is all preliminary work to determine the feasability of doing this.

dave

[dmede]

Originally posted by Dave Lesser:
dmede,

Can you provide the contact info for the US rep? Do you know if they are marketing the air cooled gensets in the US?Here is the main page for the US:

http://www.hatzusa.com/home.php

You can contact them directly or lookup your closest dealer. I have no idea about the gen sets.

[L.W. Baxter]

If your shaft is going to be relatively slow turning, you might get an effective "neutral" by adding a u-joint to the shaft, and building in a housing where the shaft and propeller can be manually retracted, ala the St. Pierre dories.

There was also a rather clever plan for a tilting inboard motor in a shallow draft marsh boat in WB not too long ago, worth a look.

[Norman Bernstein]

Nobody mentioned the Lunenberg Foundry 'make and break' engines... I'm sure there are folks here on the list who know about these little beauties a lot better than I do, but...

I was on a schooner cruise in the early 70's which put into Monhegan Island, in Maine, something that was fairly unusual (because there isn't much of an anchorage there). We were there because the skipper of our schooner, the Timberwind, got permission from Capt. Havilah Hawkins, to use his private mooring. While we were there, a freindship sloop rafted up with us. They were using the freindship sloop to deliver firewood to the island.

As I recall, the skipper of the sloop told me that the Lunenberg engines worked equally well in reverse; all you needed to do was to stop the engine, and kick the flywheel with your foot in the opposite direction!

I'm sure the Lunenberg engines are slow and heavy... but you sure can't beat them for nautical charm and 'saltiness'!

[dmede]

Mike, thanks for those posts, lotsa good info.

I should clarify, I am not stuck on a diesel for this boat, especially not at $4k. Thats why I was looking at the HATZ diesels, they were only $1600 ready to run (without gearbox).

When I first started thinking about this project I was looking at air-cooled gas for power. I'd also be very happy with a small rebuilt diesel like the Palmer BH Atkins specd for the boat. There are numerous options, thats why I come to you guys smile.gif

I like the idea of a feathering prop instead of a gearbox. Is that inparactical for such a small boat? The prop is only 10" with 6" pitch.

[dmede]

Originally posted by MIke:
I can't seem to get my posts to edit so I will add this one to say that in WB. 113, page 97, there is an article that specifiaclly speaks about the Slocum and speaks about Brown Marine. It also has a complete list of engine makers for that particular boat. If you don't have the issue, I can copy the names for you on here.Thanks, I picked that issue up a few weeks ago, just for the Slocum article. Im using it as my study plan until I decide to purchase the full plans from Ms. Atkins.

[ssor]

I was just reading the warranty for the Honda GX series of engines, they carry a 24 month warranty for materials and workmanship in commerical service. I think that means that if your take proper care of it in small boat service it will last long enough for you to get tired of it.
My only reservations about such engines has been the engine mounted fuel tank.
A few days ago I was talking to a tree surgeon about his stump grinder(stay with me here) in terms of reliability and repairs. It's pretty demanding service. He said the only problem that he had experienced was with the vacuum operated fuel pump. But lately he had found a fifteen dollar electric pump that looks like an inline filter. Has run for several months on this and not had any down time because of the fuel pump. A primer bulb and light generator on the engine should do the trick.

[chergui]

I'm not surprised to hear they don't have a solution for a gearbox. Best bet is a custom engineering firm, Brown sounds promising.

I also tried to go the variable pitch (vp) route. The system I used to have in my boat and which I replaced with a water cooled engine was a Swan diesel from China. It was imported by China Diesel Imports (must be the company Mike is talking about in posting above). They no longer import Swan engines. It was a fixed speed engine and had a vp system. The prop could be feathered to go in forward and reverse, and the more pitch you gave it, the more speed you would get. It worked as a throttle and a gearbox. I had problems with the system and took it out. According to a surveyor I was talking to, vp systems are used in big tugs with big engines and they run at very low RPM's, around 400-800. My shaft was going at about 1200. The pitch lever was so stiff it was difficult to control properly. At 5 knots it was almost impossible to change the pitch. Part of the problem is that the prop needs to be perfect. After pulling it off with a wheel puller over the years, it warped slightly and was not quite right. But it wasn't all that bad and I suspect the surveyor may have been at least partly right. Now, there are lots of vp systems out there and I'm sure some work better than others and some have throttle control as well as pitch control. I mention it only to highlight that these systems may cause you grief down the road. Some people like them, and some hate them.

But there are no vp systems out there anymore for small engines and most vp systems are made to work with specific engines (ie- Saab). My system was unique (at least now) in that it could be used with any engine. I was talking to a well known boat designer in Maine and he was saying it was frustrating that there was no reliable maker of vp systems for smaller boats. However, I would never use one again. I would stick with a gearbox and a variable speed engine.

[ssor]

I was talking to the parts man at the local farm equipment dealer and asked about the drive system on the zero-turn-radius mowers. He showed me the varible displacement reversable flow pump and the hydralic wheel motor. I told him why I had this interest, that is seemed like a good way to turn a propeller on a boat. He allowed that it might be, but the pump and motor only, cost about 600 dollars. Hoses extra. The pump is belt drive off the engine and there is a small oil cooler and reservoir. It would allow complete freedom to place the engine where it would balance the boat best.

[Philip Maynard]

Thats a very interesting idea, it would also free you from the alignment requrements between the engine and prop shaft, but the freedom of engine placement is a huge plus, what about thrust loads? - I guess that would now have to be handled by an additional thrust bearing? I would not expect the pump can handle them?

[ssor]

Pump is belt driven, motor is closely coupled to the axle shaft. Neither carry any thrust loads. A flex coupling between motor and propeller shaft would deal with minor misalignments. And yes you would need a thrust bearing on the propeller shaft.