Varnish odor...

[Kelsey]

Not sure this is the right forum area, but I am wondering about varnish fumes. Is it true, that as long as you cannot SMELL the fumes, they are not harming to you or your loved ones? I ask this because I have a newborn...and I also have a lot of varnishing to do. I am nervous about doing any varnising in the house. Is it possible for baby to be safe from fumes upstairs, while varnishing in the basement with proper ventilation?

[Concordia..41]

If you have even the slightest concern, you should check with your pediatrician. I've never heard the "if you can't smell it, it can't hurt you theory" but one of my first varnishing experiences nearly cost me my life when I thought I had adequate ventilation, but really didn't.

[Ken Hutchins]

The first you should do is get the MSDS from the supplier for the varnish and anything else you are using. Manufacturers have a responsibility to put the information on this form. Then talk to the doctor.

[TomRobb]

I love the smell of varnish.
(I just don't want to be the one applying it :D )
You're suggesting it can cause harm :(

[Chris Coose]

I'm of the opinion that little baby lungs (and all others) should be subject to the freshest air avaliable.
I have a house that you can drive a cat through in about 2 dozen places. Plenty of fresh air, but I'd be looking for another place to apply any synthetics for the good of all breathing things, including the cat.

[gaffman]

Please forget the MSDS which is a compromise between good health, producers, and government.
No varnish fumes for the newborn, baby, toddler.
Its a rule. Ever see a newborn kicking around in a boatshop? If you have to ask a pediatrician, you already know or should know the answer. Newborns have immature lungs and the pulmonary process is not 100% fully developed at birth.

[TomRobb]

While I found the whole PE/NA, Shopping for Opinions thing tiresome in the extreme, I don't thing it's rational to get pediatrics questions answered from a bunch of old-fart boatbuilders.
Ask a real expert :rolleyes: your doctor.

Yes, this is the wrong forum.

[ 03-24-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: TomRobb ]

[Rocky]

If you have to ask, no. Suppose your child develops asthma or something in later years? You'll always wonder. They say farm kids never develop allergies, but I wouldn't chance it.

[ 03-25-2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Rocky ]

[gaffman]

Take care man. What are you talking 'old fart boatbuilders'. I just repair them. I can't replace a stem as well as some, but I stand by the advice given today. No pediatrician will tell you different.

[Bruce Hooke]

I'm not that convinced that a pediatrician is going to have that much in the way of useful information, but it might be worth asking none-the-less. I think it's pretty obvious that an infant should not be exposed to varnish fumes. The question is how many(?) varnish fumes would find their way from the basement to the second floor. In a house with hot air heating the ductwork could provide a direct path for carrying large quantities of fumes straight from the basement to the rest of the house. On the other hand, in a new house with hot water heat and good doors and floors the amount of fumes that find their way from the basement to the second floor could be essentially non-existent. However, I am just using some example factors -- there are so many unknowns like could fumes blown out of the basement leak back in around a window. Unfortunately I think it would be very hard to really know without extensive, fancy tests on the house under various weather conditions; and I'd guess that there probably are not even any very good numbers on the exposure limits to solvents for infants. An MSDS is going to be based on exposure limits for adults, not infants...

If you are concerned I would probably take the safe route and try to move the boat outside and away from the house. Or, is there a time in the near future when mother and child might want to visit relatives for a few days?

[NormMessinger]

If you can't smell the fumes AND you have a reasonably normal sense of smell that baby is going to be subjected to a lot worse things and probably already has been.

[TomRobb]

Gaffman, If I needed legal advice I'd ask someone like you or Cleek or Scott. Boat or ship work, maybe I'd start with Dave Fleming.
Pediatrics? Ask your MD. And saying that no pediatrician will tell you different is a bit of a reach isn't it?
And I stand by that advice. That said, I'd guess that Norm had it right, but my opinion in that matter is worth what it cost you.

[ 03-25-2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: TomRobb ]

[NormMessinger]

Yep, mine too, Tom. Which doesn't mean I don't have a bunch of opinions. One is that there is danger in being overly protective as well. Babies are tough. They have to be to survive the care of amatures who don't get a second chance. Don't worry Kelsey, your precious gift will be fine.

[gaffman]

Tomm: I don't think its a bit of a reach at all. Not a bit. If an adult with any mild airways disorder consulted a pulmonary specialist (which is admittedly an MD not a JD) it would be suggested that they stay away from any and all chemical fumes, including varnish fumes, or wear a mask. It's common sense that the immature lungs of a newborn will be insulted by chemical fumes. If you want to know if a kid has an ear infection, take him to the pediatrician. If you need more, consult your neighborhood attorney.

[R.I.Singer30]

I'm 99.9% sure the container will tell you to use with adequet ventilation. But I wouldn't want to expose my baby to any of it if I had too.My wife can smell a fart from a hundred feet away ,where I didn't smell a thing.

[TomRobb]

Gaffm, where did your medical trining come in? Somewhere between Torts and Contracts? Or your inside knowledge as to what ALL Pediatricians will say? ALL is an impressive number.
Neither of us is competent to advise here; neither has the training, much less the credentials.
My Grandmother agreed with Norm, babies are tough, at least tougher than they look. That doesn't make any of us competent to advise.
If our original poster is worried, consults a bunch of guys on the internet, and doesn't consult his MD, he has a fool for a patient.

[gaffman]

Ah, you bit. Good. There's too much beatin around the bush these days. Some things should be unequivocal. ALL pediatricians mean ALL pediatricians. Throw in midwives if you care to. Aside from being correct, my point here is that you don't have to be a physician to know not to expose a newborn to chemical fumes. Geez, how can there be any sober discussion of it. Other than that, I agree with Norm and Norm's grandma too (and who would dare not to). Babies are tougher than they look - so lets just lite a coupla big old cigars in the nursery, pull up the rockin chair and talk boats. Maybe we can invite my favorite President and he can bring along that little box he puts his cigars into just to keep them from drying out.

[Cedarhill Boatworks]

Somebodies pissing in the cheerios again. Read the can, use some common sense. I spent my first year and change hanging in the shop in a car seat.

[NormMessinger]

Right, there is a heck of a lot of difference in exposing a baby to varnish fumes and varnishing in the basement when the baby is on the second floor unless there is something saddly wrong with your forced air heating or cooling system.

I suspect most Dr.s would error on the side of absolute caution. No harm done by saying don't do it. One wonders what other harmful substances mom can't smell, see, taste, or feel the poor kid is being exposed to.

How about cow's milk vs. mother's milk and needed immunities? How about cats and dogs in the house and playing in a little dirt to build the immune system.

Momma don't let your baby grow up to be a sissy.

[gaffman]

Norm's right again.

[Art Read]

When my sister had her first child, she spent countless hours researching nutrition guidelines, product labels, "childproofing the home" brochures, and all the other stuff nervous new mothers do. Until the day a couple of years on, when she glanced out the kitchen window at her carefully coddled toddler quietly and contentedly sitting in the garden and eating dirt with her applesauce spoon.

My second niece pretty much ate what she wanted. (And the dirt-eater will be enrolling at Vassar next fall...)

Open the window, keep your newborn out of the shop and re-think things if your wife tells you it still stinks like varnish upstairs...

(Anybody else remember how your old grade school used to REEK of paint fumes for the first few days after summer vacation? Maybe THAT'S what happened to me...)

[ 03-26-2003, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Concordia..41]

Art in my case it was the roofing tar they seemed to use daily on the elementary school roof. Still love that smell :D

Seriously though, if Kelsey's varnishing he's got solvents and gosh knows what else around and some of that stuff's really bad - see the results of years of CPES exposure on the CPES and sanding thread.

When in doubt, don't.

- M

[NormMessinger]

When in doubt, get educated. Worry caused wrinkles. tongue.gif

[Ed Nye]

I think this is pretty easy to figure out. Just start varnishing. When Momma smells that crap, she is either going to throw you out of the house or she and the baby are going to leave. Most mothers will intuitively tell you to get that stuff away from the baby. The content of the varnish varies a lot from maker to maker. The odor of some of it I love, some I don't, but if I tried to varnish around one of the grandbabies, I know of at least two women that would be all over by mutt.
Ed

[Kelsey]

Wow, that sparked quite a conversation! Pertaining to some responses, OF COURSE I am not going to rely soley on a message board for the well being of my family, I mean come on.
However, it's true that an MD is going to err on safety side and say "no way". I just wanted to get an opinion from "real" people, with real experiences...real wooden boat enthusiasts like myself. FYI, it's not the boat I am varnisning, it's boat parts that I have stripped off, so I could work on them at home - to be with the family more (ironic, huh?), as opposed to spending countless hours down at the marina working on the boat (1957 26' Chris Craft Sea Skiff). Thanks for all the input! I'll try to post some pics soon.

[Waterdown]

Kelsey:

If it were summertime I might try it, as we could close the kitchen door to the basement and open the basement windows, keeping the varnish area separate from the living area. At this time of year, however, the furnace is still on, and that would circulate the fumes throughout our house fairly quickly.

With a newborn I was shy even of latex paint in the basement if the house was closed up. Toddlers are a bit tougher.

I have young kids - my opinion here as a parent. Just ordinary folks. My, what a lot of discussion this stirred up...

Cheers, Chris

[Bob Cleek]

Nothing like a "hummer" to get everybody going! LOL Actually, Gaffman (or whoever first said it... I ain't scrolling down to look) was absolutely right... ALL pediatricians WILL tell you not to expose your kid to varnish fumes AND any attorney is ABSOLUTELY qualified to tell you that. Obviously, no pediatrician is going to expose themselves to a medical malpractice lawsuit by telling you ANYTHING you are worrying about is okay for your kid because if something goes wrong you are going to blame HIM. LAWYERS KNOW THIS!

As for the kids and my practicing medicine without a license, this one must be your first. I'll bet you a beer that before it's six months old, 1) you will have had a moment of inattention while changing the critter and it'll fall off the bed, 2) it will scream bloody murder for about fifteen seconds while you frantically rock it in your arms, 3) you will NOT tell your wife this ever happened and 4) the kid will be just fine! Happens to us all. God made infants so they bounce pretty good because he made Dads that screw up every so often. It's about evolutionary adaptations and all that. Relax, enjoy your kid. Chances are, the biggest problem you'll ever have with your young'n and varnish is keeping his paws out of it once he's toddling!

[Kelsey]

Thanks Bob! It is our first, how did you guess..

[Mrleft8]

I used to hang out in my father's shop as a young child.... Sniffing varnish, and turpentine never affected me.
I used to hang out in my father's shop as a young child.... Sniffing varnish, and turpentine never affected me.
I used to hang out in my father's shop as a young child.... :D

[Dan McCosh]

Problem I see here is that in the old days varnish fumes were mainly light oils more less related to mineral spirits. Not nice in heavy quantities, but probably not so bad.if you can't even smell the stuff. Modern varnishes can be more of a toxic mix, with solvents ranging from the aforementioned mineral spirits to worse stuff. Two-part mixes are isocyanates--the stuff that picked off Bohpal India.

[gaffman]

Dear Bob Cleek - that happened to me, word for word. Your recital of it was perfect, particularly where we don't tell Momma once we know the kid is okay. I laughed out loud. Thanks.

[Donn]

"Chances are, the biggest problem you'll ever have with your young'n and varnish is keeping his paws out of it once he's toddling!"

Ain't that the truth! One of mine climbed to the top of a highboy dresser when he was 2. Pulled out each drawer, sat on top, and chugged a 12 oz bottle of liquid baby aspirin.

[Ed Harrow]

YOu bet they'll get into worse fixes than one would ever suspect - I'm sure something happened to one of the many kids we've had thru here that I never told SWMTMH about. Damn near lost the last one off the counter while changing him. What a squirmer, and that doesn't do him justice, LOL.

As for varnish, well I was raised on Man-o-War, I guess that explains a lot. ;)

[R.I.Singer30]

To Bob Cleek like Gaffman I'm still laughing out loud except I'm not admittin' nuthin'(in case the wife reads this). As to being around chemicals I've spent 20+ years mixing chemicals ( MEK,methanol ,Pm and things I can't spell ) and I very rarely have been sick(knock on wood boat),I always joked that the germs couldn't live in that enviorment enviorment enviorment...

[NormMessinger]

Um, there are two things dad should know about babies. Mother's milk is far superior to anything else one can feed a baby. It imparts all sorts of immunities and other benifits. One of the most important of the latter is the ease with which one can deal with night time feedings. Ya hardly have to wake up to dump the kid in bed beside it's treat.

The second is that once a diaper is accidentally pinned to the babies skin one will almost assuredly be relieved of that duty. It was an accident, I swear, no one could do such a thing on purpose, but what the heck, if the damage is done one may as well take advantage of the situation. So what's a safety pin you ask?

Are we still worried about varnish fumes we can't smell? Then promise to keep our progeny away from anyone, ANYONE, who smokes AND from second hand smoke.

[ 03-28-2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[Peter-Built]

I can only assume that most of the opinions given in response to the Kelsey asking about the possible harmful effects of varnish fumes on their infant must also smoke cigarettes. It’s obvious those breed of humans are obviously brain dead and want all the company they can get as they embark on a painful demise.

How can anyone with any intelligence even consider opening a can of varnish, paint or anything else like that without preparing your body and all others around you including your pet’s like your about to be exposed to biological warfare?

OK I’m going to try and calm down a bit and quote a couple things on a can of varnish in front of me. This is not in fine print but in bold print.

“THIS PRODUCT CONTAINS A CHEMICAL KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER.” (it was written in upper case)

“Notice: Reports have associated repeated and prolonged occupational overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous system damage.”

Daaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!

MSDS (material safety data sheets) are available on all products of similar nature and the seller is obliged to give you one free but strangely you have to ask for it. They may have to get the company to mail it to you or they may have them stashed under the counter.

I have been opening cans of varnish and paint and other Wooden Boat related products over the years. I protect myself as well as possible using a positive airflow respirator with a power pac with organic vapour filters, and a fully enclosed headdress, coveralls and gloves. In the early years I was not so cautious and as a result I have become sensitized. Everything from cigarette odor on clothing, to ********** resin fumes 300 feet away; give me an intense throbbing headache within 10 to 30 seconds, which last all day.

I know of a fellow in my town that was staining some furniture in his unventilated basement. It was estimated he was only exposed a total of 15 hours. It was determined that it was a direct link to him getting ALS.

Many of the responses to the question indicated that the “little people” are more residualent or tougher. If you take an adult and grab them by the shoulders and shake them vigorously, they may get a headache. If you do the same to an infant they may get Down Syndrome or die. How residual is that!

Again...... Daaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

If you are of the mind to experience extreme pain before you experience your premature death, I suppose that’s your prerogative, but the children need our protection.

[ 03-28-2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Peter-Built ]

[Peter-Built]

the work is supposed to be "********** " resin where all the stars are. Editing the post didn't seem to correct it. Perhaps it's our Canadian spelling eh!

[Peter-Built]

sorry one more time....fiberglas

[Bruce Hooke]

Ummm...Peter, we're not talking about varnishing while the baby is crawling around on the shop floor! We're talking about varnishing when the baby is two floors away, were the varnish odors probably would not be detectible to the human nose even one floor away. I think you are loosing sight of the situation, and maybe getting sidetracked by some tongue-in-cheak comments that I think were largely intended to make the point that at times we do go overboard with regard to safety.

[Art Read]

Peter... Your caution with paints and varnishes is commendable and your PERSONAL experience probably warrents it. The fact that some people are more vulnerable to certain materials than others is well documented. However, some people will also die from eating one peanut while most of us can scarf 'em down all day, and likewise, some people have violent reactions to any chemical exposure while most need only take simple, prudent precautions with them.

Read the label again. "Notice: Reports have associated REPEATED AND PROLONGED OCCUPATIONAL overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous system damage." (Emphasis mine)

With today's liability minded, litigious society, I'm surprised the wording isn't even more "dire". I just bought a hammer that has a sticker on that says "Always use eye protection and follow all other safe use pratices when using this tool." Duh! My shampoo says "Not to be taken internally". So does my drain cleaner!

"Perspective" is not a sin. Nobody here is suggesting varnishing in the nursery. And if you feel as strongly as you seem to, and have children, I'm surprised that wooden boats can play any part in your life. Do you take 'em out on the water with you? That's "toxic" too, taken in large enough quantities "over a prolonged period".

[ 03-28-2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[garyspear]

Since everybody else wants to express their concerns on how you treat your child let me add this. as I spent time reading this thread and pondering the sage advice here in. I came to a realization. What a stupid discussion. What realy upset me was that I was too stupid to stop reading.
Kelsey. use your brain. and trust your own judgement.

[ 03-28-2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: garyspear ]

[Peter-Built]

Art.
Firstly I quoted directly from the can which was in my left hand as I typed with my right hand…. word for word.

Secondly, I have tinnitus (constant ringing in the ears) from prolonged exposure to loud noises such as swinging a hammer for 40 some odd years without ear protection.

I have MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity) even after considerable cautions over the years. In one respects that is a good thing because it warns me of hazards in the air before others notice them.

To think just because you don’t smell Organic Vapours means they arn’t doing you any harm, tells me you’ve been smelling them too much already and the brain damage they have caused, has effected your sense of reason and common sense.

Sorry Art, I don’t mean this as a person attack, but for heavens sake people, give your heads a paint shake.

[Art Read]

"...simple, prudent precautions..."

That's all I'm saying... I'm sorry about your troubles. Got a few of my own. Varnishing in a well vented, open space didn't cause any of mine. (Now CPES, on the other hand... ;) )

[Todd Dunn]

Kelsey - Do you smoke? If you do maybe the varnish fumes will protect the kid's lungs.

Just kidding. I wouldn't vanrish in a house with a newborn in it. Heck, think of this as the perfect excuse to build a workshop outside :D

[George Roberts]

Kelsey ---

gee. Is it so hard to have the kid outside for a half a day while you varnish?

[Kelsey]

I am currently fighti...er, discussing, with my wife taking up a few bushes to fit my boat into the back yard. We have 2 flat, open acres, but not accessable. I can build my temp. "boathouse", and forget I even brought up this topic! Thanks for all the advice though!

[ketchme]

For those interested; Perko ( I think ) bronze sea-cocks and valves also have a tag with big red letters saying stating the "California cancer warning" Peter-Built mentioned.I'm not sure how many thru-hulls you would have to eat for it to be hazardous. :D Regards, Keith

[thechemist]

I got a spool of rope. It came with a big red tag that says:

"Warning! The improper use of rope may be dangerous!"

[NormMessinger]

:D

[John Blazy]

Excellent articulation Art. Just because Peter is a valid exception, does not mean that all should be so paraniod. I think that coffee contains ingredients "known to the state of California . . .", or will soon be if the lawyers and insurance companies have their way.

I take common-sense precautions, but I have to relate this story. I hired a shop to cast poly-resin/glass furniture parts from mold masters I made and their shop always reeked of styrene. If you know of those who make a living in plastic boats and have ever visited their shops, you know what I'm talking about. They worked indoors, without masks of any sort at any time, and very little ventilation. I had heard all the warnings from NON-professionals about styrene (the main ingredient in polyester resin - as in "Bondo" that gives the characteristic smell) fumes, so I asked these guys what health hazards they are experiencing. They said that they had been working with this stuff since the sixties and had no problem. They were sharp too - no sign of mental capacity impairment - in fact one guy invented the mother of all spray guns, patented in its ability to atomize a ceramic fiber reinforced gelcoat the viscosity of peanut butter. The ceramic fiber was what they said that they wear a mask for, but not the fumes. This guy even smoked a cigarette once after mixing a batch that had a blowing agent in it where the fumes were harmless until they reached a high reaction temperature (discovered by inhaling through the ciggy) and he poisoned himself with the resultant form of mustard gas - and he's laughing as he relates this story.

Bottom - line is that there are many professionals out there that are fine with fumes and don't want to hear the whiny-butt all-inclusive dictations from non-professionals about safety precautions. Some can handle it, some cannot and its all the "risk of buyer".

[Ian G Wright]

I bought four pints of milk yesterday. In letters 1/4 of an inch high it said on the container "Warning, may contain Dairy Products". Without too much trouble one can find peanut butter that has a warning on the jar "may contain nuts",,,,,,,,,,,,,

Keep babies away from varnish, come to think of it if it's my varnish keep EVERYBODY away from it.

IanW

[R.I.Singer30]

We used to go to Rocky Point Park for clam chowder but I never saw one clam in there. Go figure. ;)

[Hughman]

What a thread! Your child is in more danger from the VOC fumes when the hot water heater in the basement kicks on! [!]BOOM[/!]

Still, if it were me, I would varnish in a newly built boatshed built over those two doomed bushes! LOL!