Reefing out the seams

[Hollingsworth]

The adventure begins with me taking possession of the Escapade, a 24' sloop built in 1940 at the Grebe yard in Chicago. She's a freshwater boat, spent her life on Lake Michigan. Been in dry storage for past ten years. Currently sitting in my driveway with a soaker hose placed under decks to help swell up the planks...

In the process of reefing out the seams using a handmade reefing hook (old file). Question is, how clean do the seams need to be when I re-caulk? The Lifecaulk that's in there now sure is tenacious. Thoughts, comments?

I'm a newbie on this board, btw. And the Escapade is my first boat.

[Gary E]

Welcome to the forum...

"In the process of reefing out the seams using a handmade reefing hook (old file). Question is, how clean do the seams need to be when I re-caulk? The Lifecaulk that's in there now sure is tenacious. Thoughts, comments?"

The use of a file is an old standby, it worked then and still works now. I get it as clean as reasonable, no need to be hospital clean as the Lifecaulk's tenacity to hold on is legend. I would and have used it every time along with 3m5200...

Now you will find a duzzen or more who will tell you that crap wont stick to nuttin and I'd die before using ina boat seam... so sit back and wait awhile, they;l show up.

Again, welcome to the Forum

[David W Pratt]

There is an old Classic Boat in which Nikky Perryman relates their approach to doing the seams on their 35 footer. They bolted a guide to the bottom of a laminate trimmer and ran that along the old seams. The putty was hard. It evidently worked very well. Put the tape under the sealer so it sticks to adjacent planks, not substrate.

[Bob Cleek]

Just a couple of comments which you may or may not be aware of. Make sure you are pumping out the boat if you have a soaker hose running in it. Boats are make to keep water out. Barrels are made to keep water in. A boat out of water full of water may start her planks.

There's no need to caulk if the boat don't leak. If she's been out of water for ten years, how do you know? Odds are she will swell up when she is launched. There really isn't any need to "soak" the boat to swell the planks. Putting her in the water will do the same job with a lot less hassle.

There's a difference between "caulking" and replacing seam stopping.

Given the age of the boat, if you are totally new at working on wooden boats, find somebody, like a good boatyard, that can tell you what needs to be done and how to do it before you start making work for yourself.

When you reef your seams, be careful not to overly enlarge or damage the caulking seam. What comes out has to go back in.

Use the (somewhat) newly repaired search engine and read the many posts addressing what you are working on. They will be most helpful.

[wyndham]

Without sounding too harsh, if you don't know what you're doing, stop.
What makes you think the caulking needs to be replaced?
Caulking, "Corking" is what keeps the boat from leaking, seam compund makes it look pretty. 5200 is neither and does not belong in, on, or near your seams.
If the stuff you are pulling out is so tenacious why ae you pulling it out?
Launch the boat. Keep an eye on it, throw a puddle sucker in it and pump it out. How bad does it leak? Does it leak?
Slow down. Don't do things that can't be undone.

[Hollingsworth]

Originally posted by wyndham:
Without sounding too harsh, if you don't know what you're doing, stop.
What makes you think the caulking needs to be replaced?
Caulking, "Corking" is what keeps the boat from leaking, seam compund makes it look pretty. 5200 is neither and does not belong in, on, or near your seams.
If the stuff you are pulling out is so tenacious why ae you pulling it out?
Launch the boat. Keep an eye on it, throw a puddle sucker in it and pump it out. How bad does it leak? Does it leak?
Slow down. Don't do things that can't be undone.

[WoodenBNut]

Yep, yep. These guys are right. I have been there and done that. Well, I had intended upon reefing out the seams on the old wood boat I had acquired and then stuffing some goo in those seams to make it "much better". Luckily the weather was really bad that 1st winter I had it and I couldn't get at it. Lucky for the boat, because if I had been able to get at it and reefed those seams and caulked those seams with some kind of goo, I most likely would have destroyed that carvel planked hull of a perfectly good boat. If you caulk a carvel planked boat with somekind of rubbery type caulk, then when you do get the boat in the water and those planks expand, they will try to expand and that rubbery caulk/adhesive will prevent them from expanding. SOMETHING WILL HAVE TO GIVE - because those planks will expand. You will probbaly end up with a destroyed boat hull - split planks, broken frames, etc. Not good.
The only thing I would put in any seam might be a brown seam compound like Interlux or Pettit brown seam below the waterline seam compound - usually for steam to plank seams or sometimes keel to garboard seams. But, use it only where you must. It will not cause damage because it remains soft for a long time and will squeeze out of the seam as it expands. ** Also, you must prime the seam with paint before you apply the brown seam compound - this prevents the wood from sucking the moisture out of the brown seam compound.

[Gary E]

But WoodenBNut,,,the boat ALLRADY has said stuff init...so I guess his boat is kaput?.. I dont think so,,,

[Hollingsworth]

Love the can of on-line whupass I just opened...

...thanks to all for advice. The reason I'm scraping the seams: the guy who bequeathed her to me told me she needed it. And I listened.

She does/did leak.

Plus I'm one of those guys that takes everything apart and puts it back together again. I plan on recaulking w/cotton and then adding the lifecaulk over that. Then I'm going to repaint.

[wyndham]

How badly does she leak? If its just a bit then reef and recaulk the leakers. Reefing and caulking and compounding the seams of the entire hull is a lot of work and no easy job.
Caulking with new cotton is not something I would attempt without being taught. It is an art.
There are probably more threads on this forum about caulking than anyhting else exept maybe CPES. Your enthusiasm is admirable, temper it with some careful forethought and some hands on from someone who knows what they are doing and is prepared to guide you. The job you propose to undertake is the one above just about all others than can very realistically make or break your boat. Caution is the better part of valor here. Be careful.

[WoodenBNut]

Gary E - Yes, sounds like someone had put Lifecaulk (a polysulfide) in these seams previously. I am assuming that maybe there is cotton below that polysulfide Lifecaulk? I don't know - would have to research that boat/builder.
Hum? What to do now? I am assuming that maybe this boat did have cotton in the seams and someone used the Lifecaulk some time ago instead of a soft seam stopping compound like Interlux or Pettit (Brown for below the water or White for above the water). Lifecaulk is a polysulfide. It is a lesser evil in a carvel planked seam than say 3M 5200. But, a polysulfide will get hard over time and then will not push out of the seam.
If the boat has cotton in the seams, this is what is supposed to make the planks water tight. The "caulking or seam stopping" is just more or less to help keep the cotton in and for appearance.
I think you really need to have a wooden boat expert come in and actually look at this boat and the seams, plank & hull structure and access the present/past situation and what is best to do from here. I know this will delay the project a little, but it may be worth it in the end (save a lot of work).

[Scott Rosen]

Thoughts, comments?

I'm not going to tell that Lifecaulk won't work. It will, in the sense that it will fill your seams and protect the cotton. I'm only going to tell you why I wouldn't use it on an old carvel planked sailboat.

Before I get started on caulking: filling a boat with water is not a wise thing to do. It won't necessarily expand the wood in the same way or to the same extent as putting the boat in the water. And, being that water is heavy, and your boat is constructed to keep water out, not in, you could start some damage to your planking. Also, seam compound won't stick very well to wet wood (which, you will soon learn, may be a blessing in disguise).

There's a very simple principle that applies to almost every item on a wooden boat. "You will one day need to take it apart, repair it or replace it. Build it or fix it with the next repair in mind."

First thing to know about caulking: it doesn't last forever. If you store the boat in the water in the summer and dry in the winter, your caulking may not last very long at all.

Second thing to know: It's the cotton, not the goo, that keeps the water out of the boat. Sure, a boat with freshly gooed seams will be pretty water-tight, but keep it in the water for a while and sail it, and the goo will start to separate from the seams in places. If there's no cotton in the seam, you will have a leak. If you are depending on the goo to stop the leak, then you have bigger problems on your hands.

Third thing to know--you already know: goo in a tube is tenatious stuff; i.e., hard to remove. Even though it may separate from the seams enough to leak, it will stay stuck to the seams enough to be a real pain to remove. You'll be cursing the guy who put that stuff in there. You may have trouble removing it without damaging the caulking bevel. You may not even get your boat in the water this season, for all the time it may take you to reef out the polysulfide from the seams.

That's why I use Interlux brown underwater seam compound. It does everything I need a seam compound to do. When I need to remove it, it comes out nice and easy with no damage to the seams.

[Hollingsworth]

No, no, no-- you guys have it all wrong! You're supposed to reply with messages that say "Wow, for a newbie, you sure know what you're doing!" Then I sail off into the sunset, one hand for the boat and one hand for a drink and one hand holding a copy of Farley Mowat's "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" on my lap.

As for fears of filling the boat with water from the inside, a la soaker hose: I screwed a 2" long pipe nipple into a drain in the bilge, so the water never gets higher than that. Just keeps the bilge wet. Got a tub under the drain with a sump to recirculate.

Now... hypothetically speaking... let's say that an eager new boat owner did, in fact, get a little ambitious with a curved and grinded file tang and -- in fact -- removed a good deal of not-only-Lifecaulk, but some cotton caulking as well in about, oh maybe 20% of the seams. Now what? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[George Roberts]

We try not to deal with "hypotheticals."

I hope you numbered the pieces.

Simply reinstall the pieces of cotton caulking and Lifecaulk. You will need some type of adhesive to assemble the pieces into a whole, but there are "hypothetical" products for doing just that.

[Scott Rosen]

It would be pretty hard to remove the lifecaulk WITHOUT taking a good amount of cotton with it. That's to be expected. (Another reason to stay away from the really sticky goos.) It's the plank edges that you need to be really careful with. Once you butcher those . . . well, I don't want to go there.

You're going to have recaulk where the cotton came out. Thing is, if the boat leaks, she may need new cotton in a bunch of places. You might have a lot of difficulty determining how much of the cotton needs to be replaced, and if so, how to do it properly. That's why some folks suggested you consult with an expert.

Caulking takes some experience. Caulk too hard, and you break through the seam or cause damage to the planks and frames. Caulk too light, and the boat leaks. A bad caulking job is a bit more serious than, say, a bad paint job.

A man's gotta know his limitations.

[ 06-10-2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Gary E]

Now... hypothetically speaking... let's say that an eager new boat owner did, in fact, get a little ambitious with a curved and grinded file tang and -- in fact -- removed a good deal of not-only-Lifecaulk, but some cotton caulking as well in about, oh maybe 20% of the seams. Now what? Hypothetically speaking, of course. Ya know, that's gona happen, so what I do....uhh what I DID, wuz put it back, maybe not zactly the way the original guy didit and maybe not with the same sorta tool, but stuffit back in there I did and then procede with step 2.

THis stuff aint brain surgery, and it sure aint hard, dirty and time consuming sometimes yeah... but sose removing my car engin and rebuilding it sose I coud go faster than the other kids when I wuz 20 also just aint quite according to hoyle either...

Hav fun, ifin ya get stuck, ask someone in in the yard.