Splice/Fids?

[Donn]

I bought 200' of 5/8" 3-strand nylon in case I had to tie Loon out. How much will I have left after I teach myself how to put eye-splices in it?

[ 09-23-2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[ishmael]

Get a piece of hemp to learn this. You could do it with the nylon, but it's unwieldy for the first few times, slippery, and it doesn't hold its twist.

In an eyesplice the first tuck is critical, and with nylon so soft it's hard to believe that in fact 'that' is where it goes.

But, basically, no matter the rope, just go at it. That first tuck is counterintuitive.

[holzbt]

Donn,
Give me a call Monday and I'll run you through a couple of practice splices. I'll have you splicing in a few minutes.

[mmd]

200 - [(2 x circumference of eye) + (2 x (8 x rope diameter)]

[Donn]

I have some nice stiff old hemp scraps I can practice with.

Roger, if I can't figure it out by Monday, I'll do that.

mmd... :D

[mmd]

I'm not sure if you misunderstood, Donn. That formula is real.

[Donn]

I'm certain it's real, Michael...I just thought you had a humorous slant on the correct answer. An engineer must assume no waste in the process.

[Dave Fleming]

An engineer must assume no waste in the process.

--------------------
Donn

ROFLMHO!!
I gotta chuckle at that...You listening EDWIN????

[holzbt]

Find a copy of Hervey Garret Smith's "The Marlinspike Sailor" or "The Arts Of The Sailor". His illustrations are some of the clearest you'll ever find.

[Donn]

I have Marlinspike Sailor, but I also found this on the web:

New England Rope on eye splices. (http://www.neropes.com/splice/sp70_3-strand_eye_splice.htm)

[Ed Harrow]

Originally posted by Donn:
...How much will I have left after I teach myself how to put eye-splices in it?ROTFLMHO Donn. Well just how, hmmmm, you don't really want us to answer that question, do you??? ;)

Now Dave, what are you trying to say? ;)

[Donn]

I can always use what the Bonaker refers to as a South Bay Hitch. Used for joining two lines, or placing an eye on the end of a line. A simple overhand knot with 2 pieces of line.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Of course this assumes you aren't trying to make a tapered eyesplice. I swear it took me about two years of practice just to get to the point where I could taper synthetic stuff neatly enough to make rat-tails and tapered splices. Lucky for you, you probably will never need one. Unlucky for me, almost everything I do with roping has to be tapered and usually on both ends.

[Figment]

Donn,

Don't stop with the eyesplice.

I first learned the eyesplice about 15 years ago. Then again a few years after that, and again a few years after that. Every time I sat down to lay a new splice, I'd have to go and look it up anew. As Ishmael says, that first set of tucks is somewhat counterintuitive. It wasn't until I learned a bunch of other ropework that I began to really understand how rope works, and only then did any of it stick with me.

I'd suggest also learning the basic short splice, backsplice, wall&crown, and matthew walker knot. I'm sure someone of the IGKT will chime in with a different list, but that's mine, and they're all covered in The Marlinspike Sailor, IIRC.

Todd,
With regard to working neatly with synthetics; Have you any magic tricks to pass along to fuzzballers like me?

[Donn]

I need evening lapwork that is less messy than whittling, and I fancy that rope work might fill the bill. I'm very good at knots, and can rig fishing tackle while sleeping, so I imagine I can learn rope tricks.

[Scott Rosen]

An eye splice in three strand is child's play. Why don't you try splicing two different diameter pieces of double braid?
tongue.gif

[Donn]

Child's play is what I'm looking for. I don't have two different diameters of double braid.

[ishmael]

It is easy, though the first tuck is...well like I said, it goes behind the twist, and that's confusing, at least to me. After that, all daylight. And it is easier to learn splicing with hemp rope rather than synthetic, but I said that already.

An eyesplice is nuthin'. Who can make a long splice in three strand? I ask ya? I can't.

That skill is in some ways a leftover from sailing ships, where a man had to be able to do those splices in order to keep the ship moving. Not that it's defunct, but the typical yachtsman isn't going to need a long splice in three strand.

Can ye throw a bowline there matey? That's more important.

[ 09-19-2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Dennis Marshall]

Donn, you might try Brion Toss's "Pro Splice" which he claims makes a fairer eye. It is just as easy as the eye splice but looks a lot better. Learned the pro-splice just this week.

Dennis

[Donn]

Not much else to do in Grapids, eh? Unless you work for Zondervan.

Hop skip and a jump north is Newaygo...a fine fishing spot if ever I saw one.

[ishmael]

It's getting late. smile.gif

[Todd Bradshaw]

Figment, there aren't many tricks for synthetic stuff that I know of. I just try to keep in mind that both nylon and polyester have very limited memory and the less it's disturbed, the better. I have heard of people spraying the rope with hairspray when working it, but have never tried it.

My tapering method is pretty simple, but tedious. Step one is to accept the fact that it's going to take a while. A rat-tail takes a half-hour or better to make, even in small stuff like the 3/16" or 1/4" line that I use most of the time. I use a board and a couple of spring-clamps. I clamp the line to the board about 10" from it's end and untwist it into the three strands. Next, one-by-one I completely untwist a strand into parallel yarns lying side by side and clamp the loose ends down to the board.

The board has cross-marks about every inch and I use a fresh utility knife blade (hand held) to start at the top and scrape toward the ends - the first stroke starting at the 9" line, second starting at the 8" line, third at the 7" line, etc. It usually takes six to ten series of these graduated passes to wind-up with a bunch of strands that are evenly thinned-out on their bottom ends and a big fuzz-ball at the bottom, next to the clamp. Utility knife blades aren't really all that sharp, but single edge razor blades seem too flimsy for the job. An old, but sharp straight razor might be better. Once all the scraping is done, the yarns are rubbed down with bee's wax, the fuzz-ball and clamped-down bottom ends are cut off and the strand is twisted back up by hand. The same is done for the remaining two strands and then all three finished tapers are re-twisted into the rat-tail or if you're making an eyesplice, used just as you would untapered strands. As long as you keep some twist on the strands, the wax will keep their shape until the eye is done. Rat-tails get sewn on, either strand by strand, by hand with a round stitch, or with the sewing machine, right down the middle of the rope and onto a piece of luff tape for small sail external boltropes. It's a lot of work, but the finished tails and tapered splices really have a clean purposeful look that you just can't get any other way.

[Ian McColgin]

That New England example is almost as bad as the Boy Scout handbook and really makes it hard. There are a couple of good ways to make the start. I'll describe what we call the 'pro-splice' because I know I can do it with words:

Assuming right-hand lay line:

Note the diameter of the individual strands (the three bundles of threads). Measure about a dozen strand diameters from the end and put something to hold the line - thin tape, a constrictor knot or whatever as a keeper. This is the normal amount you'll need for a 6 tuck splice and still have something to cut off.

Unlay the strands to your keeper.

Tape the strand end with electric tape good and tight. Maybe even burn the ends inside the tape a bit so you don't loose any threads.

Have the standing part of the line leading away from you on your left and form your bight of whatever size the eye is to be counter clockwise such that the unlaid bitter end approaches from your right. The strands should be aimed to cross, not go with, the lay of the line.

Position the keeper about where the throat of the splice is to be and take the nearest loose strand and tuck it under whatever strand is on top of the standing part.

Now, here's the cool part. Same end strand, go over and under the next strand on the standing part - In otherwords start with two tucks in the first strand. Now you can see instantly where the strands 2 and 3 line up corrosponding with strand 1's second tuck.

This start is so fool proof that I can do it with eyes closed.

When you've gone 5 full tucks of all three strands, which is 6 on #1, you can begin your taper. If you've forgotten which strand is #1, go 6 full tucks. The taper is simple. Just do the 7th tuck with 2 strands and the 8th with one.

Don't cut and burn until after you've rolled and pounded the splice a little to be sure that everything is happily set.

FID TRICK. The common U shaped fid and the nifty "fid-o" both absolutely must enter the lay of the line from the opposite direction you're going to insert the strand from. Even the regulary spike type fid works better this way as you can then catch the line with a finger and draw it out along the fid.

A nice splice does break the lay of each strand a bit but you don't want it all flat and stringy. Try to keep the lay intact as you pull the strand through - a open fid really helps here as if you're dragging the strand through a tight space, it will tend to kink up. Once through, pull and twist on the strand till it looks nice. Once all three strands are walked through at each level, pull and twist each in turn to ensure that all the threads in each strand are pulling their fair share.

G'luck

[ahp]

Learning on hemp or manila is fine, but remember, nylon is slippery. Using three strand, three tucks in hemp or manila will hold, but with nylon you need more.

Any comments from the Forum?

[DerekW]

Splicing slippery soft-laid synthetics is one thing; laying the stuff up into grommets is another.

One trick that I can vouch for is the use of hair-gel - that sticky viscous goop used by people with longer hair and different fashion sense to sculpt and spike their locks. The cheapest stuff you can find in the toiletries aisle at the local store will be just fine.

Work the hair gel thoroughly into the section of three-strand you are going to lay and unlay. Set the gooped cordage to one side until the goop is dry. It won't turn nylon into hemp, but it does give the strands enough memory to ease tasks which require re-laying into the same groove. Once the task is done the goop washes out.

cheers
Derek

[Donn]

Lots of good ideas here. I haven't started yet, but I've done a good bit of reading, and may break down and get the Toss book.

[Donn]

Now, here's the cool part. Same end strand, go over and under the next strand on the standing part - In otherwords start with two tucks in the first strand. Now you can see instantly where the strands 2 and 3 line up corrosponding with strand 1's second tuck. Ok, Ian...the start is done. Now do I go back to strand 1 and do it the normal way, or zig-zag back and forth 1-2-3-2-1?

[Ian McColgin]

After strand 1 has two tucks, it should be easy to see where strands 2 and three (from left to right) enter at the same level as strand 1's second tuck.

This is the trick that gets rid of the messy start. Another way is to put strand 1 under two strands in its first tuck.

Without one of these two winkles, the strands just don't arrive in the standing part smoothly - at least one looks laid out too long on the surface. That also creates a defect in the splice as the strands (and yarns in the strands) cannot correctly share the strain.

G'luck.

[Bill Dodson]

I can tell that my mind's going to be troubled until I get home and try this out. Thanks, Ian, I'm looking forward to it :D

Bill

[Ian McColgin]

Brion Toss somewhere has a discussion about the correct way to the pro-splice, yet his edition of the Knots for Chapmans has the old boy scout way that just does not work. I've been meaning to ask him about that . . .

Anyway, once you get that first strand tucked twice and pulled up nicely, the lay for 2 and three will be quite apparant. It almost jumps into place.

Enjoy.

[Donn]

Fids? Make them or buy them? The Fid-o looks pretty handy, but it also looks like it could be duplicated at home.

I have the splice, as described by Ian down pretty good now, practising with stiff 5/16 nylon. I've been using the barrel of a ballpoint pen as a fid. I insert the tapered barrel under the strand in the rope, thread the strand being tucked into the wide end, and push them both through. Awkward, but it works with the smaller stuff. I don't think I have a fat enough pen to use on the 5/8".

Ideas?

[Ian McColgin]

Well, Brion Toss's fid is a lovely thing and worth the price if you do a lot of work. I failed to copy the picture - just go to his site and the catalog and you'll find it.

The common tapered U section fid you can get at wastemarine and most anywhere else works ok.

You're right about the fid-o. It's actually a traditional tool. First one I saw was when I was a kid. When I had to splice up some 3" stuff on the tug, I wowed 'em by first shaping a nice bit maple solid fid that socketed smoothly into some pipe all fitted with a handle - just like a maxi-sized fid-o. I personally think buying their larger model is worth the investment - easier than making one. Splicing the stuff suited to the smaller fid-o is so easy that buying the unit doesn't get you much. The fid-o has a tendency to loose it's grip between the parts - gets loose. This is not a problem in use as you just push the thing anyway and the notch that allows you to rotate the tool is stout. But the two parts get seperated in your rigger's bag. An annoyance.

The most traditional fid is wood. Maybe an inch and a half or two inches at the fat end. A foot long so it tapers easy. You can do some nifty rope work for the handle end (no doubt Hugh has a photo of something he's already done in this line) to enhance your grip. A fid like this doubles well as a light mallet for shaping and finishing the splice. After you've rolled it in your hands a little, lay it down and tap away all around. Roll again and all the threads and yarns in the strands should have laid down in obediance.

A marling spike will work as a fid in lighter stuff.

A wire splicing fid is best in stainless and has its own interesting shape. The best such is actually made by snap-on and they think its a scratch-awl. You just flatten the tip a bit.

Sampson and Brion Toss make dueling fids for working double braid. Brion's is typically pricy but every so much better than it's worth it from the first splice on - and I used the sampson types for many years before Brion hit on his unit.

There's also a fid whose name I forget that is made of bronze. It's essentially flat but from the tip two bits flare out in a nice V and then come back together at the handle. You stick it through the lay flat and then twist to raise the lay. Assuming you passed it against the direction you'll pass the strand, you can catch a bight of the strand in this gizmo and pull it back on through. Fairly quick for the right kind of line. Works best on natural fibres and some dacron and poloypropolene. Not too good for nylon.

Never enough fids.

[Nicholas Carey]

BTW, Brion Toss (http://www.briontoss.com/) runs a rigging forum called SparTalk (http://satsop.olympus.net/wkstone-0.7.5/webkeystone.py?UserID=biz_briontoss&Profile=message_board/showMessages.prof) that a useful place to get rigging-specific advice. A little quiter and a little more focused than around these parts smile.gif

And his Point Hudson fid

http://satsop.olympus.net/biz/briontoss/catalog/store_img/PointHudsonPhidBoth_sm.jpg

is mighty nice, too. Bit spendy, tho, at $28. The small size will do up to about 5/8". The large size will work from there up to something over an inch.

It's made from stainless tubing with a cutaway. Unlike a swedish fid, it doesn't bend. I'm happy with mine. About the only modification you might want to make to it would be to put a flat on one side of the pommel so it doesn't roll off whatever you set it down on.

[Donn]

I'm working on the traditional splice now, as shown in Chapman's (can't find my Marlinspike Seamanship!), and I'm having more trouble with it. Do I have this right?

The first tuck of the 3 strands goes under 3 contiguous strands in the standing line.

The center unlaid strand goes under the first strand of the standing line.

The left-most unlaid strand goes under the next strand up the standing line.

The right-most (3rd) unlaid strand goes under the third contiguous strand up the standing line.

If that's correct, what's the next tuck? Is it made with the center (1st), left-most (2nd), or what?

BTW...are my fingers supposed to be cramping? :eek:

[Paul Scheuer]

"Form the eye and spread the strands away from you fanwise, placing them against the rope where it is to be entered. Untwist the rope one half turn, open the top or center bight with a small fid, and stick the center strand under the center bight from right to left, then stick the left strand under the next bight to the left in the same direction and lastly stick the right strand, from right to left, under the remaining bight. After this tuck all strands once more, over one and under one." Ashley #2725. from The Ashley Book of Knots, page 445. (my bold).

It helps to bind the raveled part, but after you get the knack it is unnecessary. (as is the fid).

The trick is to get the third strand tucked under the bight to the right of the firstly tucked bight. It's kind of unnatural and it seems like you are tucking too close to the eye.

When you get all three tucked once, they should come out 120 degrees apart and in the same position along the length of the rope.

It doesn't matter what order you do the second set of tucks, since everything is symetrical at that point.

[Donn]

The trick is to get the third strand tucked under the bight to the right of the firstly tucked bight. It's kind of unnatural and it seems like you are tucking too close to the eye.

When you get all three tucked once, they should come out 120 degrees apart and in the same position along the length of the rope. This is where I get hung up. If the third strand being tucked, goes under the third strand of the standing line, I don't get a 120 degree spread in the fan, and the third strand seems to have to reach further than the first 2 to get to it's tuck strand.

[Paul Scheuer]

Sounds like you're close. That third strand still gets tucked from right to left, just like the previous two.

Making that third tuck means that you take the strand (the #3) that is laying over the #1 strand, pull it out to the right, over the only bight that doesn't have a strand tucked under it, and then tuck it. (right to left).

The 120 degrees is just that the three strands, when properly tucked, are at about the same spot along the length of the rope, and radiating out from their tucks at equal angles to each other.
You'll know it when you see it.

If we don't have this by Thursday, we'll do pictures.

[Figment]

I walked into westmarine a few weeks ago with a $15 certificate, but only needed $10 worth of stuff, so I grabbed a (smaller size) Fid-O.

As Ian says.... never enough fids, so I'll keep it in the bottom of the bag. My tapered wooden fid gets first grab, though.

[Ian McColgin]

The phrase "different boats, different long splices" comes to mind.

That Ashley description is a careful version of what I derisivly (though I'm an Eagle) call the boy scout eye splice.

In essence, it tries to get the first round of tucks for each of the three strands to start at the same place on the line. If you marked an ink line around the bit of line, you'd be finding a smooth entry for each of the three strands, one each, at the spots where the ink line passes from one strand to the next.

The problem is, while it can be done, it's hard to make it really even. The pro-splice of giving the first strand two tucks and then starting the first round for the other two strands at the same level on the line as the first strand's second tuck is just easier to make truely fair.

At least for me.

The fellow who used to do moorings down here used to hire me on some winter days to catch up on splicing up new pendants. He used the approach of making strand #1 go under two strands and then starting around while I used my pro-splice. Both ways looked so similar when finished that we had a hard time of telling which of us did which job. And both ways were clean enough that it took a very good eye to identify which side of the throat was the standing part. You really can't make it as nice the Boy Scout way.

Another perhaps theoretical advantage of the pro-splice is that there's at least a little taper at the entry. The strands on the standing part side are less abruptly disturbed and the rope is less weakend by the splice. I can't believe this matters much as at that point each side of the splice is only supporting half the strain, but it's a comforting thought.

Besides looks, the taper at the end really is important as it allows the line to gracefully reassume it's correct lay. Even for the hard use of mooring pendants and towing hawsers, I never tapered by nipping yarns within the strands. The line appears to have all the strength it's going to retain (about 90+%) if you just give strands 2 and 3 one tuck more than strand 1 and strand 3 one more after that.

On mooring and towing lines, I'd leave maybe a 1/4" of each strand out and visible. It's well to burn (the soldering gun like tool or bladed wood burner is best) the yarns of each strand together, but leaving them proud and visible will give some warning in the extremely unlikely event that the splice starts to slip. At any rate, it's so much faster than giving the splice a really fussy finish that in working up 500 or so pendants, the time is worth it to we who have done the work.

When I make dock lines, however, I like to bury the ends of the strands into the lay of the line so that the soft handed won't hurt themselves.

I usually use a keeper - tape, a short whipping or constrictor knot to keep the strands from unlaying further than desired - on slipery nylon line. I can usually hold the line fine if it's dacron, polyprop or natural fibre.

I don't like whipping both parts together at the throat as that prevents finessing the tucks right at the throat, but a keeper to keep the line from further unlaying is good. I remove it after the first full round of tucks and before twisting and tugging to settle those tucks.

The eyesplice in double braid is a bit counterintuitive to make, feels like milking a mobious strip, and when finished does not display it's structure.

A liverpool splice in wire is an amazing structure but a bit baroque to be considered lovely.

But a well formed eye with three strand line embodies the aesthetic values of elegance and restraint with perfection of form and function.

When you've finished rolling and pounding and trimming the ends, take a moment to admire your work.

G'luck

[Art Read]

Well now... Talk about serendipity! I just finished reading this when my doorbell rang. My spool of 5/16 Dutch Dacron just arrived! Thanks for spelling out that "pro-splice/two-lay tuck" so clearly, Ian... I think that's what I've been doing all these years by "trial and error" without really understanding what I was about... Ah, well. What looks right probably is!

Time to make some halyards....

[NormMessinger]

Harrumph! I tried off and on for years to learn to splice an eye in a piece of line and failed. My old boy scout book made it look so easy. Finally, on a float trip throught Grand Canyon in aught and 66 a kid that worked as a third mate on a tug boat in the summers showed me how. Come on, Donn, it's easy. ...once you know how.

[Donn]

I have it down now. Roger stopped by this morning, and showed me. Then I went to Amazon and looked up the book he suggested, Marlinspike Sailor, and two of the sample pages were the eyesplice. Great drawings.

drawings.. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0070592187/ref=lib_rd_ss_TT06/104-9586815-8240749?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=11#reader-link)