View Full Version : An old photo comes up at auction.

John B
11-21-2002, 07:25 PM
with an indicator price of NZ $800 to 1000.About $500 US I spose.
Waione gunning down the same bit of water she'll be gunning down on Sunday in our first race of the season... only 90 years later.
It's a signed Winklemann photograph( Our Beken) Quite big( 16 x 20" or so) taken in 1912 in a crappy 1950's frame. bit faded but.....

What's a man to do. sounds dear to me. Hell.. that's a new topsail!!

[ 11-21-2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

Wild Wassa
11-21-2002, 07:41 PM
John there are a couple of things about the photograph that I would question from a conservator's viewpoint, after seeing the price.

How is the photograph framed/mounted? For that price you would want the photograph mounted in acid free materials. Full-on museum quality. If you find that you purchase the print then need to have the print conserved, the total price will skyrocket.

The photograph should also be behind UV retarding perspex not glass. Glass breaks.

See the dots on the print? they could be either hypo stains (speeding up the oxidisation of the silver) or foxing, mildew. The photograph might need a test for residual chemicals left over after processing. Quality processing and storage can keep a print in a state of good conservetion for up to 2000 years (from accelerated aging tests by Eastman Kodak) This print is only 100, and looks like its fading.

Do you know if the print has been toned at all? Possibly a brown iron toner. It certianly looks too cold for a sepia.

From the little that I see, this print looks like it is fading and staining. If you or anyone was thinking of displaying the print, it should only be displayed in very low light, otherwise it could fade very quickly, from here on in.


[ 11-21-2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John B
11-21-2002, 09:10 PM
Hey thanks Warren. good points all. I just look at it and think " not crisp, faded, badly framed but has provenance " Given to a crewmember on his wedding day.( how I wish I knew who) .1913. It's the photographer. He's world famous in NZ.
I bet the old crewman has recently gone sailing for one last time and family are selling up.
I'm balking at the suggested price for sure.
$300 to $500nz is where it should be max. Would you agree?

Wild Wassa
11-21-2002, 09:57 PM
I don't know of the value of the Photographer's other works, but the value of the provenance, and the fact that it could be added to your collection, sits way above $500. Priceless infact. The print seems to be at a price for the artefact, not a price for an artwork. So therefore is very good value already.

I do know that the photograph will be priceless to the right Collector though, smile.gif .

Are you in a position to see the original prior to the auction?: I certainly would try if I wanted the photograph badly enough.

In fact I'd kill for any old shots of my dinghy. And she is only a dinghy. I'd sell my sole to the devil if I could find a set of plans for her. Not to build from but to know I just had them.

This old photograph to you would be worth a lot more than a $1000.

Good luck John B. Too good not to have. Hopefully you might be the only person bidding. I wish you the best.

[ 11-21-2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John B
11-21-2002, 10:18 PM
AWwww. there goes the rum and wine ration. Yes I've been to see the original today. that's my digital photo of it.

All sorts of treasures there.
these pond yachts for ex.
They'll go for the price of a small house no doubt.

Hey!! I just noticed . they've got the topsail set up as a jib on that first boat!! LOL.

[ 11-21-2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

Wild Wassa
11-21-2002, 10:29 PM
John B, (I have to include the B, since there are a few Kiwis also known as John on the Forum) I also have taken into account that the photography of the photograph is not optimal.

The original is probably beautifully toned. Cross polarize the light source next time, :D .


[ 11-21-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John B
11-21-2002, 10:34 PM
Cross polinate whatdidyou say?

Look what you find when you look. Go to catalogues... maritime for all the other stuff

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-21-2002, 10:40 PM
Well John, I wouldn't want to be in your position.... too dangerous. Nice composition on that photo too. Models are awesome

John B
11-21-2002, 10:48 PM
Yeah, dilemma time next week.

I could do with a balloon jib like that in the photo too. I had a good look at that photo, and knowing that stretch of water in the harbour pretty well, I think that there's at least ooooooo 25 kts showing there and she's doing a consistent 9 plus the odd surf higher.

And that other hooligan has his topsail up!!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-21-2002, 10:58 PM
I get all logical about stuff like this and say stuff like "archival collecting with the boat blah blah blah.." but in your case it has merit... Ohhh and you already know that Good luck :D

11-22-2002, 08:03 AM
I don't understand. Is the question where to hang it??? ;)

- M

John R Smith
11-22-2002, 08:55 AM
John, old mate . . .

like Margo says. This is a superb photograph, and if you can afford, just go for it. But take note of Warren's comments - you will need to re-mount and re-frame the print. It can only enhance your enjoyment of the beautiful Waione, and should go with the ship should you ever have to sell her (heaven forbid).


11-22-2002, 09:30 AM
After you purchase this print, I would be seriously tempted to recreate the shot in full color just for grins.


John B
11-24-2002, 04:22 PM
I haven't got one from off the boat Lisa. But I DO have one ( taken yesterday) from on the boat in a bit more wind. Only we're on the front of a wave , not the back, which is why the bowsprit (All 7 ft of it) is a fraction submerged.
Looks great eh. Shame that we got absolutely pasted going back up to windward. LOL.

[ 11-24-2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

John B
11-26-2002, 06:59 PM

nearly missed it. I got the dates wrong. rang up to see when it was likely to come up and they said "in an hour or less"
So I fanged on in there , registered, sat down, bought it.$600nz. I met an antique dealer who specialises in nautical. Jim Drummond. Jim Has helped me before and in fact tracked me down with a set of Waione crockery he came across. He says I bought well . $800 is what he expected, so I feel better about the extravagance.
Now to find a period frame.
Either that , or make a new one from bits of the mast we dropped a few years ago.

[ 11-26-2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

11-26-2002, 08:24 PM
Hot dog!

But no wood for the frame please. Wood is not archival.


Paul Scheuer
11-26-2002, 08:27 PM
Spend that $200 wisely ;)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-26-2002, 08:44 PM
Thats great John.... what a wonderful addition to your boat's archival history. Some how I think it was never in doubt ;) :D :D To bad you didn't get a photo during your unplanned gybe :eek:

John B
11-26-2002, 08:45 PM
They are invariably framed in dark walnut stained oak Norm.Almost black with age. I must make more enquiry.I should ring the museum really. The yacht clubs and museums are full of them. There's a fantastic Winklemann of Waione at the Royal NZ Yacht Squadron. It's about 20 ft from the Americas cup !LOL.

John B
11-26-2002, 08:47 PM
Thanks Peter. I'll remember that for next time.
And Paul. $200.00 left for rum , wine and general grog on the christmas cruise. That should do it.( makes wry face)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-26-2002, 08:55 PM
Hmmm I remember the mention of money for a sail... oh never mind :D :D

John B
11-26-2002, 09:28 PM
Ahem... yes ... of course... the deposit on the new topsail... or perhaps that balloon jib/ reacher thingummy..... yes . a dry cruise.

that will go down well.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-26-2002, 10:10 PM
Hey put up a photo of your boat.. profile please... ?.. I love gaff rigs.. They are so.....stately.dignified.powerful looking.. okay enough drooling :D

John B
11-26-2002, 10:38 PM
I wonder who they are?
I've made a very polite request of the auctioneers to contact the last owner of the photo. they won't give me the name because of privacy concerns. One of those crew men is the father of the last owner of the photo. One or two of the others is/are Sutherland. The Sutherland brothers built the boat for 1907 and owned it through to about 1920.Angus Sutherland was the foreman of the Bailey yard and he built Waione for himself. I like to think that means the best of material went in. At 95 yrs old and fundamentally unrestored, I could be right.

Go here Peter,for some current photos. The boat is 41 ft long on the deck.. about 31 on the waterline, 8'6" beam ( go on ,laugh ... go on) and about 6'4 or so draught. S/A is 1020' including topsail, from memory
Also http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?show_all=1&start=1&id=4291734493

No probably better in here LOL.

[ 11-26-2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

John B
11-26-2002, 10:51 PM
I wondered where that went. a lot got misplaced with the photopoint demise.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-26-2002, 11:13 PM
John... a beautiful album. A thoroughbred for sure... long deep and narrow, with enough sail to get anybody but a good sailor in trouble. A stunning boat, you must be very proud to be able to care for her... smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

11-26-2002, 11:18 PM
Cha ching!!! :D :D

- M

P.S. - You surely didn't expect this bunch to discourage you did ya'?????

John B
11-26-2002, 11:41 PM
I go through stages Peter. Worn out. then we go sailing for summer most second weekends and 3 or 4 weeks at christmas. very good quality family time.

No Margo. I spose I didn't.

NOW I will take it home. ( "Where do you think you're going to put that?") HA. Right above the mantelpiece!!!

Wild Wassa
11-27-2002, 12:28 AM
John B, congratulations Skipper. I wish I was there to restore and frame the photograph for you.

The photograph needs to be; mounted in a fully sealed and matted archival envelope, then place it in a wooden frame. 100% acid free mat.


11-27-2002, 09:45 AM
... mounted in a fully sealed and matted archival envelope, then place it in a wooden frame.

There ya go! We have the Light Impressions catalogue for a source of any archival material one could need. What is the source in Australia?


11-27-2002, 10:18 AM
John B.

That's a beautiful photograph!

It is also worthy of conservation and preservation, as Wassa recommends.

I'm glad you didn't have to sell one of your children to get it, although you may, once the conservator is done.

John R Smith
11-27-2002, 10:38 AM
Nice one, John B, it's always great for us lot to spend someone elses money ;) I wish I could trace the first owners of Lulu and find some pix from the '60s.


Alan D. Hyde
11-27-2002, 10:58 AM
A related topic, John B., if you'll indulge me a little.

Most of us enjoy good photos of boats, particularly of our own boats. But very few people anymore support local artists (specifically oil painters) the way they were supported 150 years ago, when commissioning an oil portrait of a family member, or a favorite house or boat was relatively common.

There are some very good painters around, struggling to make ends meet. Many will do excellent work for much less than you may suppose. Such an artist painted a portrait for us (of the better-looking half of a couple in Spain, who are close friends) as a thank-you for their many kindnesses to us and particularly to our children while they were abroad.

The artist was happy to have the work, we were happy to have an unexpected gift to give, and our friends were delighted: the husband openly, and the wife demurely denying that she could be as beautiful as the woman pictured (she is).

Anyway, it can be a pleasure to support your local artists when you can and as you can.


John B
11-27-2002, 04:24 PM
You're right of course Alan.We have a particular artist we want to support and had committed ( mentally) to buying a particular work of his only to discover it was sold the week before our approach! When the next painting came up... one with Waione in it even, I was feeling financially stressed and just plain couldn't justify doing it.
(Is worrying about money a purely male domain I wonder?)
Anyway. this one is on the boil. ( only partly complete) and I have a contact as it's being painted by my mother.LOL.
I suspect christmas might figure in it.

John B
11-28-2002, 02:57 PM
This is exciting.( for me anyway) The ex owner of the photo rang us last night and filled us in.
Her Dad , Jack Symons,sailed as original crew from 1908 to 1913" the best years of his life,he always said." He became lifelong friends with the builder/owner, Bill Sutherland and they both lived into their 80's. He met her mother on Waione ( on a cake day)
He withdrew from the crew in 1912 and the Photo was gifted to him on his wedding day in 1913 by Bill Sutherland and the crew. That Photo was bought and paid for by the builder/ first owner of our boat.
He ( Jack)died in 1964 with a photo of the boat beside his bed. I have that too. It came with the lot.
She had the Winklemann photo reframed in the 50's because it had insect damage but described it to me... 3 " white/ cream mount, Oak frame dark stained, ... slightly concave moulding about 3" or so( Quite large) and bevelled out from flat as I expected( I led her on that).

What a buzz.

11-28-2002, 07:31 PM
Just goes to show - good things happen to good people with good boats.

- M

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-28-2002, 08:26 PM
Wow John, you have had quite a week or two.... (what an awesome thread too)

11-28-2002, 11:59 PM
You need to write the photo's information down. On a card etc and store it with the photo. He's right the photo is fading, If you can afford it you should have it preserved. And in case your not a photographer.. thats an AMAZING shot he took of the boat. Think of him on another ship rocking back and forth crashing over the waves.. and he captured a perfectly framed, balanced shot of her at her most beautiful. Very good eye.

As far as your indecision over buying it before you did im with the other guys.. "i dont get it.. whats the dilemma" lol.

A boat that age with a photo of her racing 90 years earlier? That will add a lot more to the actual sale value of the boat methinks. Not that your going to sell it you obviously love her but its a good justification. Imagine yourself buying her.. your thinking "beautiful boat.. pretty old which is good and bad".. then the owner points to the framed photo on the wall "thats her 90 years ago sailing those waters over there.. beautiful wasnt she" ...i see you saying "um so i write this deposit out to who?"

If you think about it.. with that $600nz you could buy a semifancy radio, or the latest GPS wizbang .. and they'll break and be thrown away in a couple years and replaced with a $20 wristwatch sized version.. or you can add a little to the historical value of the boat and a LOT of romantic value to her. (Cmon admit it you have a crush on her).

John B
11-05-2003, 10:51 PM
an update.......Dorothy came down and saw Waione when she was out on the hardstand .She also came and watched me launch her last week. She was really excited to see the boat her Dad had crewed on in 1907 and must have snapped off a film or two while we were going in.
What a pleasure it was to meet her finally. We've spoken several times on the phone but last thursday was the first time I actually met her ( and her husband)
One of the joys of owning an old boat I always thought. Meeting old crew/ skippers , and associated people like Dorothy.

Quite a buzz.

[ 11-05-2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: John B ]