How to best learn yacht rigging?

[Stan C]

I'm new to the WB site and previously have posted only on the DESIGN and BUILDING pages.

To eventually achieve my dream of owning a large livaboard cruising boat (I'm thinking it may be 10 years til I can manage a really big boat like 50' plus that could be a comfortable home when in port), I plan to relocate to the Maine coast within weeks to seek employment in boatshops and yards, having no experience in building or sailing. I have 2 posted topics on each of the above named pages if anybody wants to know more. ( I plan to eventually enroll in THE BOAT SCHOOL in Eastport, ME to learn boatbuilding)

At this time I am seeking all of the info I can get that will aid my decision making process related to my education and future employment.

One major interest that I want to learn more about is rigging. I do believe that I am likely to find it easy and even pleasant to learn since I enjoy reading about rigging problems in the various magazines on sailing and I am usually good with technical things. Plus, I know from working as a stagehand that I like to climb. I might decide that I'd like to become a professional rigger someday.

I'm probably going to get a book on the subject soon, maybe THE RIGGERS' APPRENTICE.

Does anyone have any opinions or advice they'd like to share?

Stan C

[ 05-31-2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[ssor]

The riggers apprentice is a start. As grey's anatomy would be start if you sought to be a surgeon. Starting green you also have to start at the bottom as an apprentice and over the course of years work your way up.
The story is told of the yard owner that told his senior rigger that it was not necessary for him to be working ninety feet above the deck, he should let the younger men take that work. The rigger was eighty-five and took off his work apron and said if you don't think that I'm doing a good job then I'm through here. The yard owner said that wasn't the case at all he just thought that the younger riggers should do the work aloft. The senior rigger said in disgust that those young fellers didn't have enough experience to do neat work. The youngest of them was sixty.

[Eric R]

I'll second the above.

I worked a summer not long ago as a rigger's apprentice - started in March, laid off in September due to a drop-off in business at the loft and I was the most junior of all the employees. Rigging is incredibly exacting work - something as little as an un-moused shackle can cause big problems down the line.

After six months, I'd progressed from sweeping the floors to being allowed to dust the head rigger's workbench. Occasionally, they let me whip the end of a line for a customer, but only with one of the older guys looking over my shoulder. Was told that as I'm a bright young man, I might be doing actual rigging work in five or six years. And by rigging work, they meant turning eyesplices in dacron double-braid, not working aloft. They had guys in their twenties/thirties who had been working there since they were teenagers who hadn't actually worked in a rig yet.

If you want to become a rigger, it's definately a career choice, not something you can pick up in a few years, as I found out.

What might be a better idea, if your intention is to gain a working knowledge of rigging and not necessarily spend the decades it takes to be a pro, might be to make some friends in the area who own boats and see if they'll let you go up and have a look around. By all means read the book, but of course the book only goes so far.

A rig is a highly stressed assembly, as the head rigger at my old loft always impressed in me, and a little misadjustment or beginner's mistake can cause some big problems.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on your dreams, though; I like your enthusiasm. But if you're looking for skills that can be picked up from reading a book, rigging isn't really one of them, at least in my experience.

Just my two cents.

[BrianW]

Stan C,

This is all new info to me too. I find it interesting. The good news is that when you buy your boat, you can rig it to your hearts desire. smile.gif

[Meerkat]

Sounds like you should be heading for Port Townsend, WA, not the coast of Maine.

Among other things, it's got a good maritime trades school and also is the home of Brian Toss, the author of "The Rigger's Apprentice", and his rigging shop. Other amenities include an annual Wooden Boat Festival and Carol Hasse's sail loft.

[Matt J.]

Not being bright enough to know better ;) ... I'm learning "rigging" by maintaining ours, as Brian said (really I'm just learning knots, splices, and little maintenance things). I'm being careful to a) not change anything and b) learn the how's and why's of what's there.

Brion Toss's book really is excellent.

Like anything else, practice is what it's all about. I just replaced our halyards this spring, and I was pretty proud of them.

If your budget is as limited as mine, get some 3-strand and the book and start practicing the little things like eye splices, whippings, siezing, etc...

[Hughman]

And.....neatness counts.

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Sounds like you should be heading for Port Townsend, WA, not the coast of Maine.

Among other things, it's got a good maritime trades school and also is the home of Brian Toss, the author of "The Rigger's Apprentice", and his rigging shop. Other amenities include an annual Wooden Boat Festival and Carol Hasse's sail loft.I've been to the festival in Port Townsend and I like the area. If the school that you refer to is the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding I've checked it out and it's not the right one for me. I need a school with the full range of federal financial aid available. My reasons for choosing Maine are fully explained in detail if you look up the thread titled Boatshop Employment in Maine? on the Building / Repair page. I gave Venchka's question of "Why Maine?" the full answer.

If it takes more than 5 years to learn to work on a rig then I could scratch that one off of my list, but I find that kind of hard to accept. It sounds like there is no shortage of guys with the experience needed and few opportunities exist.
Kind of like the same situation I found when as a stagehand I expressed an interest in stage rigging. I did a lot of climbing when building the towers, and sometimes assisted the riggers with the headblocks and in raising / lowering speakers, and also could rig a simple bridle on the lighting truss, but to be put on the call as a rigger was such a different thing that I never even really saw where the path to that would begin. It seemed like you hadda know somebody.

I figured that while stage riggers are territorial because there aren't that many stages, there are LOTS of sailboats.
I hear what everybody is saying about precision and neatness and that appeals to me, but if I couldn't even be trusted to work up in the rig alone after 5 years then I can't possibly invest that much of my life in learning the craft, though I am still interested.

I guess I'll just have to learn what I can on my own.

Stan C

[ 06-02-2005, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Paul Girouard]

Stanc Ya might be going sideways here . I've been a carpenter for , crap :( Going on thirty years, sort of a life investment I'd think . I learn new stuff everyday,,, almost ;) as I still want to do it better smile.gif So five to learn , pony on the boat building aspect and your just hitting the tip of all that is know or even forgotten . Read some of Ian's thoughs as he goes thru the loss of his boat on another thread . And don't reinvent Stan c dream each day . Start some place and see where it leads. A my first carpenter lead told me "Do something even if it's wrong ! We can fix it tomorrow!" Ya got to start some place . PEG

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Paul Girouard:
Stanc Ya might be going sideways here . I've been a carpenter for , crap :( Going on thirty years, sort of a life investment I'd think . I learn new stuff everyday,,, almost ;) as I still want to do it better smile.gif So five to learn , pony on the boat building aspect and your just hitting the tip of all that is know or even forgotten . Read some of Ian's thoughs as he goes thru the loss of his boat on another thread . And don't reinvent Stan c dream each day . Start some place and see where it leads. A my first carpenter lead told me "Do something even if it's wrong ! We can fix it tomorrow!" Ya got to start some place . PEGPaul,

I hear what you're saying. Especially about get started and see where it leads. I guess that you could say that I'm impatient right now.

I'm not reinventing the dream daily it's just that I've had an interest in rigging since I became a stagehand back in 1989 and was hoping to be able to incorporate that into a boatbuilding career. If I hafta pick just one then it'll be building hulls because that's the essence of boatbuilding, but I know that there's guys who do a lot more.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what's possible, and thanks for your concern.

AS VENCHKA SAID in the 1st thread I started, my studies will show me the way. I wish I was in school or working as an apprentice right now. Soon, I believe.

SC

[ 06-03-2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[George.]

Stan, I did all of Dalia's rigging myself - and I do mean all. I based it on Brion Toss's excellent book, with some odd stuff from other books thrown in.

Before reading Brion's book I could not even begin to make an eyesplice, let alone a Flemish eye finished with a wire seizing, fully served.

My thoughts:

1) You may not be able to rig the Mary Rose based on "book learning," but you can certainly rig your own boat - skipper's angst will provide the necessary drive ande concentration.

2) Your first try of any new knot, splice, etc., even if you are very attentive, will look like crap - but the second will be better, and the third will be usable. Be patient, follow instructions very carefully, and never try to actually use the first try... ;)

3) A real live master is priceless - for instance, nowhere does Brion Toss mention that if you roll a thick-rope eyesplice underfoot, back-and-forth under your foot, it "lays" better...

4) Don't be intimidated by folks who rigged the Victory for Trafalgar after 87 years' practice - mere mortals can do it too, on a small boat, with an owner's motivation.

5) Don't think it is easy, and slack off... concentrate, repeat until it looks strong and neat, and test it before using. But don't ever think that real riggers are born not made. You can do it, if you have the will, and the concentration, and the patience.

Good luck.

[Stan C]

Originally posted by George.:


My thoughts:

1) You may not be able to rig the Mary Rose based on "book learning," but you can certainly rig your own boat - skipper's angst will provide the necessary drive ande concentration.

2) Your first try of any new knot, splice, etc., even if you are very attentive, will look like crap - but the second will be better, and the third will be usable. Be patient, follow instructions very carefully, and never try to actually use the first try... ;)

3) A real live master is priceless - for instance, nowhere does Brion Toss mention that if you roll a thick-rope eyesplice underfoot, back-and-forth under your foot, it "lays" better...

4) Don't be intimidated by folks who rigged the Victory for Trafalgar after 87 years' practice - mere mortals can do it too, on a small boat, with an owner's motivation.

5) Don't think it is easy, and slack off... concentrate, repeat until it looks strong and neat, and test it before using. But don't ever think that real riggers are born not made. You can do it, if you have the will, and the concentration, and the patience.

Good luck.George:

Thanks for telling me what I wanted to hear and hoped was true. I never thought that I was going to become one of those guys, I just thought that maybe I might be able to do some work on some small yachts. If there is no place for someone who is not a true expert in the trade then I will have to accept that I can never make any money at it, but still feel that I should learn as much as I can for safety at sea.

I once bought a used booklet for $1 that showed how to make some basic splices, and then I made an eye splice in 3 strand manilla for a handle on a dog leash. It wasn't perfect but it was perfectly functional, and looked ok after I rolled it under my foot like the book said. My philosophy is that no one source will be able to cover everything. That should in no way be thought to indicate that I disagree with what you said. I do agree that a real master is priceless, and I'm also sure that it does take a lifetime to become one. Perhaps only then can one be trusted to rig for pay, if thats the case I've learned something- and that's why I asked the question after all.

Since the word on Brian Toss' book seems to be all very good I definetly plan to get a copy, and since I enjoy reading I'll be looking for other sources as well.

Thanks again for your comments, George.

SC

[paladin]

Stan...when your on a limited budget......
you can google....Samson yacht braid about brochures to splice their line....Norseman and Sta-lock on how to do wire fittings,......McWhite on how to splice eyes in wire.....and on and on...and all it costs is the time to google up the info and print it....
Installation instructions for baby Blake heads, ....how to overhail and repair Dickenson cook stoves and heaters........engine repair manuals....epoxy use.....Proper handling of Xynole fabric....etc..etc..all free fer the printing....and make your own tools for splicing out of common materials....I betcha there's a lotta folks here that started that way...

[Stan C]

Originally posted by paladin:
Stan...when your on a limited budget......
you can google....Samson yacht braid about brochures to splice their line....Norseman and Sta-lock on how to do wire fittings,......McWhite on how to splice eyes in wire.....and on and on...and all it costs is the time to google up the info and print it....
Installation instructions for baby Blake heads, ....how to overhail and repair Dickenson cook stoves and heaters........engine repair manuals....epoxy use.....Proper handling of Xynole fabric....etc..etc..all free fer the printing....and make your own tools for splicing out of common materials....I betcha there's a lotta folks here that started that way...Thanks.

I also appreciate your offer of the drawings of your boat.

Just to be totally clear, none of your comments have I ever found in any way offensive. I mean what's the worst you said? Something like- "whew..2 mil. later". So what's to offend?

I welcome your comments.

SC

[ 06-04-2005, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[ssor]

Stan,
I have friends here that for five years summered on the chesapeake bay and wintered in Marathon Key. Dobbs worked for two winters as a small sailboat riggers helper and was told that he had learned all that person had to teach. Well to cut a long story short Dobbs and Suzanne hung their shingle as riggers and sailboat service providers. They limit their work to boats under about 45 feet. Have a well equiped trailer and travel around the upper bay now replacing worn running rigging and installing new equipment. They can splice fiber rope,all types, replace standing rigging on aluminum spars, they use Sta-lock or Norseman. A large part of their work is new roller furling systems and whisker poles. Dobbs climbs, Suzanne is deckhand and business manager.

[Stan C]

Now THAT'S exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I'm sure that one must need to have some sort of natural aptitude, and be detail oriented.

SC

[ssor]

StanC, Check your private messages.
Ross in Bel Air

[Stan C]

Originally posted by ssor:
StanC, Check your private messages.
Ross in Bel AirMy mailbox has been flooded since I joined a Bolger site, which I mistakenly thought was a forum like this one and I have been avoiding it for lack of time. Thanks for the heads up and I'll be checking it soon.

SC