6V starter electrical help needed

[GROOVY]

I have a problem with my starter it never did engage from the ignition switch, I added a direct from battery wire all #10 still no go. The only way it works is by using the button on solinoid . could the problem be something to do with the fact that the solinoid is for a Ford 6V auto? something like the ford was + ground ?

[Conard]

I can't help you solve your ultimate problem, but we have an old 6 volt Ford tractor, and it's positive ground.

[Mr. Know It All]

Mike......I got your e-mail with the pic's of the boatshow. Sounds like a great time and your Chris Craft looks awesome in the water. Do you still have Jim's phone number? (the guy you bought the manifold from) He might be able to answer your question.
Jim's Engine Shop 440-235-2666
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Mr. Know It All]

Another person to call or e-mail with your question would be Bruce or Chris Hamann at Lakeland Auto & Marine in Port Clinton,Ohio. They service older Chris Crafts as well as Lyman's and have been a great source of information for many. Here's their website-----> http://www.lakelandautomarine.com/
Peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Mac_Muz]

I take it the boat still is 6 volt, and that it is negitive ground.

The battery should have a cable to the solinoid mounted to a big terminal, then on to the starter.

Also there should be a 18 gauge wire or so from the key/starter button going to the solinoid, that comes on when you operate the device.

The solienoid should be grounded on the case if it is not to a common ground, or mounted on the engine for a ground.

The starter is not polarity sensitve, and should work as is. SO far as I know only the generator is poliarity sensitive, and you can take care of that by flashing the field terminial I believe. it has been some time since I have had to chance the polarity on anything from pos ground to neg..

You may find there is a unsused small terminal left at the solenoid, that may or may not be used depending on what you are doing.

I am not sure about what you wrote really, but hope this helps. If you can re-phrase your wording a bit maybe I can help a bit more.. Mac

[Mac_Muz]

I learned just a bit more about the boat from what others here said...

it seems you are using a jumper button directly to the starter, and this works.

But the key switch does not work, and you do not have a separte starter button on the dash as many boats do. Correct me anytime I get anything wrong about your boat. I have not seen pics of it.

It is likely the solenoid is mounted to a wood frame member in the engine bay near the battery on the starbord side and forward.

Still to work the solenoid needs a ground wire to the mount flange.

If you will get a "Ice Pick Test Light" this can be checked out fairly easy. This tool can be had at any auto supply house, and Walmart has these for 4 bucks. (the type with NO battery)

You may need a spare set of hands to aid in turning the key, and a longer wire added to the pick.

1. with the pick grounded to the battery - side probe the + side to be sure the pick works, and you have a ground. The light will come on when you get good contact. It will be a bit dim as the bulb is for 12 volts, but it will come on.

2. get to the rear side of the key switch, and hold the key hard over to the "Start" against spring pressue, and with the pick still grounded prob the wires untill you find one that lights the pick. This one should go off when you release the key.

Is there a wire on this terminal? If yes move on to the solenoid. If not trace the wire from the solenoid back to the switch and install it correctly.

3. With the pick still grounded, and helper holding the key to "Start" probe the solenoid to key switch wire.

Does this light the pick? If not the wire is broken inside and you need to find the break, or replace the wire.

4. Be certain the solenoid is grounded as it will not work with out a ground.

What happens: you energize the solenoid via the key, and the current passes a coil which moves another switch in the solenoid to a major battery connection, and then the key switch current goes to ground, thru the case and mount flange.

During the time you hold to the "Start" battery current is drawn from the battery thru the main solenoid switch and thence to the starter motor brushes, and the armature. Since the starter motor is grounded via the engine, and the engine via the neg cabe you have a ground there already.

Possible breaks: The wire from the battery to the key switch, the key switch itself, the wire from the key switch to the solenoid, the solenoid itself (if it refuses to throw the main switch), and or no ground at the solenoid.

This would not be the first boat coming out of a restoring mode that had no ground wire, as that can be mistaken as a (some other replaced wire easy) No one seems to notice the solenoid is not grounded..... Mac

[Bob Adams]

I think you are suffering from a voltage drop due to the length of the wire from the battery to the switch then back to starter. Add a small relay at the solenoid that runs off the key. Make the switched portion of the relay from the battery to the relay to the solenoid as short as possible and of substansial wire gauge.

[GROOVY]

Mac & others, I hope this helps
1 the solinoid engages the starter from... the as best as I describe a mechanical device (button) on the solinoid switch. This is how I have been starting engine, as I have to tilt motor cover to vent anyway .
2 solinoid is attached to starter
3 boat is newly rewired as negative ground with #10 wires to starter from ignition switch plus an additional #10 wire to ignition switch that I added from battery positive terminal.
4 I added additional ground wire from engine
5 all connections have been triple checked
6 battery at full charge
I am wondering if the starter solinoid is supposed to be used on a positive ground system would the coil in solinoid be affected? maybe working backasswords and trying to unengage bendix? or something like that? as when ignition switch is in the start position all it does is make what I can best describe as a grrrumph noise.
M.E.S. with solinoid or could my starter be going bad?

[Mac_Muz]

The solenoid does not care what the ground is, so long as it is grounded.

Since yours is on the starter, it is grounded. I was just working on a 1939 boat something like yours, or so I thought, and the solenoid was mounted to wood..

It seems you solenoid has a built in push button...great!

What do you mean by "M.E.S." ?

As much as I don't like sayin this at this point, since you DO hear the starter trying, the grummph noise, I would say there is a voltage drop as Bob says.

It seems hard to me that this could be possible with 10 gauge wire though.

At this point I would use a voltmeter. I would test the wire coming from the battery to the key for battery voltage, then re-install that wire and remove the wire from the key switch to the solenoid and read the meter...

here then you have tested for battery voltage at the battery, again for the same at the wire from the batttery, and last the switch. if the wire or the switch read less than you read right at the battery one of them is bad.... The switch may be bad, if internal contacts are worn, and or burned.

If those 2 prove out ok, then do the same for the wire to the solenoid. of course with out the solenoid in line.

I don't like to see relays on old boats as these were not used in most cases....

By all means use one if the boat did have one... Some horns did use a relay in the 50's...

In some ways I prefer a 12 volt conversion, but you did not go that way...

Another way to test this is with a Ohm meter. I can tell you that way if your interested.

This system has a voltage drop due to a poor connection at some point. This is electricly poor, and may not be visual.... Things like burnt contacts, poor crimp/solder joints, too small of a connector, or a broken wire inside the insulation cause this type of thing.

I wish I could get my grubby mitts on this one, as I do really well with finding these sorts of problems.....

Walmart again sells inexpensive annalog DC volt/ AC Volt, Ohm meters for about 10 bucks.....

Please go annalog over digital if you buy one. Unless your a whiz with wiring... Digital will read out you!!!! if you happen to touch the probes at the same time. While being harmless to you It may effect your mind, trying to figure out what it is you are reading!!! Also the digital meters act like they can't make up their minds about what the value is... And for new folks to these meters makes life harder than it needs to be.

I carry this exact type and model on my bike, and take it to every place I will do wiring....

I tried out a digital in the lazzerett of a bigger boat this summer..... It was wicked hot, and muggie down in there.... That damn digital meter was useles down there.... it was reading air!! Any time I touched the meter with one hand and touched any metal, carpeting, and about everything that meter was reading out..... Grrrrr!

A annalog will read as well in these conditions, but since the needle only moves a tiny bit and numbers are not flippin all over the place it is better in general for a water environment in untrained hands..... Mac

[GROOVY]

OK I checked the volts at solinoid.. same reading as battery connection.
also one of the bolts that mounts the starter is the negative battery connection.
I noticed that when trying to start from ignition switch the starter does engage but the built in push button seems like it is jumping in and out.
Oh M.E.S. Mysterious Electrical Sh!t.........

[GROOVY]

I narrowed the problem down to 2 things M.E.S. or the magic smoke got out of the wires.
Re-checked connections, took starter out it did the same thing (the relay or solinoid or switch, it has 3 connections 1 side from battery the top from ignition and the other side connects via a brass flat bar to starter pole) whatever it is still when started from ignition switch the mechanical button oscillates at initial start and when installed and under load wont stay in.
I guess the next step is to have the 45 year old starter rebuilt?...

[capt jake]

I'm with JTA on this one. It is a voltage drop. Not enough current to hold the solenoid engaged. a solenoid is nothing more than an electro-magnetic switch.

[GROOVY]

MES ? Well I had the starter rebuilt, it probably needed it .. but still had same problem, I even wired a pushbutton momentary on switch directly from battery terminal at starter to the top pole.
Same thing... I was convinced this was going to be an unsolved problem, but just for kicks and whistles I got another solinoid, relay or whatever it was and replaced it... now it works like it is supposed to, guess I had a new bad solinoid...

[Mr. Know It All]

Groovy......Glad you figured it out smile.gif I was thinking you'd have to call the Exorcist to cast the demons out. :D
Kevin in Ohio