rotten and wet and very sad

[inka]

Hey,
my boat's not quiete waterproof and i didn't manage to seal it all before the winter came along and with it the rain. i have parts of my deck beams that are nicely soaked by freshwater now and display rott and mold and ugly spongy fungus.
-- the boat wasn't very loved for several years before i got her and it must have been raining inside for at least 7 years.--
my plan is to peel the root off and apply Smith penetrating epoxy once it's dry. unfortunaltely there's no easy way to dry it out and i might need to wait until after the rainy season which can be several of months.
is there any way i can at least stop those critters growing and multiplying in there while it's wet?
i guess it should be some waterbased chemical that doesn't attack the silicon bronze fasteners. and it shouldn't attack my health since i'm planning to live on the boat once it's done and already hang out working in there most of the days.

[Dave Hadfield]

Well Inka, there isn't much information there, but the first thing to do is dry the boat out. Tarp it if required, bail it, de-humidify it, and eliminate the rot-heaven.

Next, do a search here and read about borates and glycol and other temporary rot stoppers. Read about it in the current issue of Woodenboat. Pick your poison and slap it on.

Finally, find a surveyor knowledgeable about wooden boats in your area, and hire him to tell you how to repair it. Epoxy sealer doesn't sound like it's going to be sufficient for you.

Good luck,

Dave

[inka]

what other information do you need? i said i can't dry the boat out until in a couple of months, sorry i can't afford to rent a barn and tarps are still leaking every now and then, especially when it's windy.
also, i had the boat surveyed and that was the advise given to me.
and i've read about the poisons, and am asking for some advise to pick one because there is too much information in the postings and too many different opinions.
to be considerd are the factors mentioned in my previous posting:
- the wood will be wet when the poison is applied
- i want to put penetrating epoxy on it later
- it's inside
- the fasteners around are silicone bronze
- the wood is nordic pine
- i don't want to poison the environment, nor have to wear a gasmask going below for the next 10 years.

so again, i want to put a break on the rott until i can deal with fixing the wood.

what more info do you need? and why are you so patronizing?

[BrianCunningham]

Some people have had good luck with antifreeze do a search.

But the critters like the moisture.

So time to start pricing out tarps!

[Henning 4148]

Hello Inka!

Rot is associated with freshwater and rainwater whereas saltwater is a known preservative for wood. Also saltwater should not severely affect silicon bronze fastenings (though it does weaken brass substantially). Traditional wooden ships used salt and salt water to a great extend for conservation and rot preservation. Also, salt is not poisonous. Summary: Cheap, easy to apply (either as a watery solution with brush, spray or directly from the box on horizontal surfaces), traditional, non poisonous. About influence on future application of epoxy: I haven't got a clue. We did a little bit of epoxying on surfaces that had been in contact with saltwater and did not find a problem, but this is no scientific answer. The manufacturer might know better.

Furthermore we used cuprinol in rot preservation and fighting, but cuprinol is certainly poisonous to some extend.

Another important issue is good ventilation of the boat. Again, rot and mold is associated with stale, standing air.

Last point: Some sort of tarpauline / boom tent / cockpit tent can really be recommended from experience. Both sun and (fresh) water deteriate whichever paint or varnish you will be using and also the wood underneath once the coat starts to fail. A good tarpauline is worth its weight in gold when it comes to maintaining a wooden boat. Extra heavy duty would be the tarpauline from a lorry which should be cheap once it has seen a few years on a lorry and might still be serviceable.

I wish you good luck with your project. Once you start to get opinions and think them through you will eventuatelly have to decide which approach seems most sensible to you. There are lots of different ways of doing things and not all will work on all places of the world under all conditions for everybody and every boat.

All the best, Henning

[Ed Harrow]

Originally posted by inka:
and why are you so patronizing?

Seemed pretty factual to me. You might look at some of my most recent "status checks" to get an idea of a structure you could build over the boat. If you can't keep the weather out there is little liklihood that you'll gain on the project.

Advise re surveyor is frequently (and correctly IMHO) suggested in cases like this, especially when people here no little of the particular history.

Welcome, by the way, there's lots of knowledge here, some of it contradictory of course, LOL. "People oft pay to dear for what's given freely."

[imported_Ola Sylwan]

Dear Inka,
This is the brutal reality. In this forum, if you study it, you will find that there is often no such thing as a straight answer, there are most often a lot of opinions to chose from. This is for your own good, you can choose what you think serves you best and disregard everything else as not suitable. In the matter of your boat, we are at a disadvantage, we know nothing about it except that it is rotting. What do you need?
If yor surveyour said that you can peel off the rot and fungus from the deck beams and preserve them with some poison, you should get a second opinion from someone else with more knowledge about wooden boats as Dave said. How is the state of the deck and carlins and the top of the frames?
Since you don´t seem to have enogh money to cover your boat properly, how are you going to finance the complete restoration to livable status, a process that will probably take you several years.
In my opinion two months more in the wet won´t make any difference to your boat.
Regards Ola.

[PugetSound]

O.K., so if I understand the problem, you are short on cash and want to live on this boat but have to first do something about the rot. You say that you cannot dry it out -yet- due to the rainy season and tarps don't quite do the job......... so consider the following for a plan of action (I am keeping the cash flow problem in mind here -been there myself):

1. Forget about drying out the wood. You say it cannot be done (practically) so don't try. Get some saltwater soap and start washing the boat - inside and out - with lots of salt water. Wash the infected areas especially. Do this mabey once each week (for now). Also, go to the hardware store and get one of those bags of rock salt (calcium cloride) that are used in water softeners. put this rock salt in the bilge and on the deck where the rain will get to it. The idea here is to pickle the boat. The salt isn't the best thing for the bronze fasteners but they can stand it for the time being.

2. Get a knife and a piece of chalk and start probing the rot damage to determine the extent. Then mark the damaged areas with chalk and mark around the first chalk border with another chalk border mabey 4 to 6 inches away (on good wood). This second border should give you an idea of how much wood you'll need to replace the rotted areas. In short, FORGET TRYING TO SALVAGE THE ROTTED WOOD WITH EPOXY; thats like trying to cure cancer with cold medication.

3. Maximum ventilation in all areas of the boat (especially the bilge). Rot hates ventilation and it hates saltwater so use this to your advantage.

4. When things do dry out, get some cuprinol (copper napthenate solution) and paint the intact areas of bare wood after you have cut out the rotted portions. Remember that rot fungus sends out tendrils into solid wood so when you remove the rotted portions you'll have to cut deep.

5. Epoxy does not stop rot once it has already started. You have to treat rot like cancer - when in doubt, cut it out. Then, seal the solid wood with epoxy and then paint to suit.....

Good Luck.

[Dave Carnell]

Oil and water don't mix so Cuprinol® is of no use, as it is dissolved in hydrocarbon solvent.

Salt is not a rot killer or real preservative.

The two rot killers that mix with water are ethylene glycol auto antifreeze-coolant and borate solutions.

Check "Chemotherapy for Rot" at:

<http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/>

[redsail]

Hey Inca
Sounds like you have a challenge! First off, a tarp system that sheds the rain. Stiffen it with battens or PVC tubing. Patch with duct tape, glue bits in to make it work, buy a sack of grometts and a spool of fat cod line and lace it on. Maintain that cover! It will save your boat once you get her back in shape. Next,pump the bilges as dry as you can, salt her down to pickle her, get all cushions, bedding and anything else that holds moisture out and store dry in someones basement, open all cupboards, lift floorboards, open hatches wide for ventalation and get some safe heat in there. Get a big fan to create a wind in there and run that heat till spring. Wash the whole interior with TSP to clean off any mould and it would'nt hurt to scrub it again with Murphy's oil soap. You can learn a lot about your boats problems when you do a good scrub.
Splash antifreeze over the areas that are decayed and when the winter ends, carefully remove and replace the bad wood. Bed new wood properly, use good material, If this is a timber boat, DO NOT epoxy anything.
Good luck.

[Howard Gmelch]

I agree with everything redsail said, except for the Murphy oil soap. That will mildew also. For cleaning I like Pinesol.

[Dave Hadfield]

Inka, "pick your poison" was meant as kind of a slang phrase. Nothing more.

Redsail said in detail what I tried to say in shorthand. There was no intent to patronize.

And he's right in his directions: dry the boat completely, scrub it clean, treat it with anti-freeze or borate, and figure out how to replace what's rotten.

You've got lots of work ahead of you. Good luck with it.

[HizzenanHern]

I think if you combine the advice of PugetSound and redsail, you'll be able to come up with an effective, workable, affordable plan of attack.

I'd like to offer what I consider are some fine tuning comments:

Copper naththenate products available "over the counter" at building supply stores aren't toxic enough to cause a health problem for boat inhabitants--unless, of course, there's ten gallons of it evaporating in the bilge. Whatever soaks into wood should be safe. I'm using it in the restoration of an old powerboat.

Light should be added to the air circulation. A few clamp-on sockets with metal shades, aimed into the more mold-prone areas, will provide a bit of heat for drying out dampness and retard the growth of mold and surface fungus--which, like rot, are wood-destroying organisms.

My limited knowledge of Smith's CFES shows it to be more effective than some comments made here. Properly used, it penetrates all the miniscule air pockets in wood, caused by the rot fungus eating the cellulose inside the wood cellmembranes and leaving only a honeycomb of membranes, and sets up harder and stronger than the wood. The trick is to use multiple coats until it quits soaking up and begins to "build" like varnish. I believe it to be a very good way to restore rotted wood which has a higher ratio of volume to surface area (beams vs. sheets) and where rot is deeper rather than spread out along a surface. The decision to repair rather than replace, in my opinion, is properly made taking into account what is involved with getting the rotted piece out and with the relative strengths of replacement vs repair, or with repaired strength vs. need for strength of that piece.

And inka -- as a general rule, every boat repair will be twice as expensive, three times as difficult, and take four times as much time as it first seems it should. Anyone who can't adjust to this unfortunate aspect of "messing about with boats" should possibly consider motor homes instead.

[redsail]

Hey Inca
Any chance of a posted picture of your boat.
Even a brief decription of her would help us understand what you are up against.

[inka]

Hey everyone,
1/ first of all thank you for all the replies, and yes, i have a better picture now about what to look into to make my descisions.
2/ sorry also if i just come in and ask many questions without telling you about my boat. i realize that the entertainment value of these postings are just as important as the information that is being shared, so here i go:
My 37ft long Marita was built in 1941 by Knud H. Reimers in Sweden for H. Nilsson. She was Hull #1 of a German cutter rigged 40square meter racing class called Seefahrtskreuzer. In the same year the owner fancied to change her to a Swedish 8meter class (ÖR8) sloop and KHR did that for him as well. Marita is her original name. She's built with Mahagony on oakand steel, with a douglas fir/oregon pine deck and nordic pine and some oak and ash in the deck beams and a spruce mast.
see http://www.da-prince.com/marita/marita5.jpg for a foto of her in her first year.
she was sold to the US in 1958 by her 5th swedish owner Axel Camitz whose business card i still found on board. She had 3 American Owners prior to me. One who had her for over 20 years and loved her, one who had her for 19 year and only loved her for half of that time. then the guy who sold her to me after trying to fix her up fairly unsuccessfully. he bought her at a lien sale when she was half sunk and ful of wasps nests with no hatches and in a sorry state. he saved her life but broke more than he fixed for a year and then found another toy.
here's a foto of her when and where i found her last summer: http://www.da-prince.com/marita/pixmarita3.jpg
i don't have a photo of the actual rotten area because i currently don't have a digtal camera at hand.
3/ I am well prepared to spend the next year and half to work on her a lot and am aware that work will never end. i also know the rule of tinkering with boats: multiply the time you think it will take you by 4 and go to the next highest time measurement. :) i do have a home and a job AND time to do so. it's like a hobby. I was a trained woodworker in a former life (15 years ago) and have been sailing for a long time. my father was a naval architect and i think some stuff is in the genes. I have been actively spending many days volnteering at the SF Maritime Hstoric Park helping restoring boat at the small craft department and also get active help and advise there. Since my question came up over the holiday break and i didn't want to wait i posted it at the forum. plus it's always good to get more than one opinion.
i just don't have the money to rent a barn to make sure she is 100% dry. Bay Area rent's are a bit too high :)
4/ i have tarps all over the boat, with re-enforcements, duct-tape, extra specifically placed grommets, clamps, weights, strings... but with 25 knt winds the water finds its way in there and it surely enough keeps going to the same spots it's been going for the past 10 years, it's not as bad as it used to be, but i doubt i'll get the areas really dry until it stops raining.
5/ so i'll definitely get another heater and make sure the ventilation is better. i have already opened the bilge and all and try to have as little rainwater as possible in there. i'll look into the recommended products/poisons and will let you know what happened
6/ i will use penetrating epoxy, i think it's agood thing, especially for areas where i'd need to litterally take the boat apart to replace them entirely, but i'll also replace wood, put in dutchmen as seen fit. during all my work so far i have tried to stay traditional, but utilize modern technology to help. I also like the asthetic of the "restauration" when you can see what is original and what has been fixed. i won't smear filler all over the place, don't worry, it will still look and feel like a wooden boat.

phew, i hope that was enough explaining.
thanks again, inka

[HizzenanHern]

I'll make a bet nobody at this site guessed how lovely a boat you have! It is surely a "heritage" boat that isn't owned, but caretaken from generation to generation. Good luck, inka -- and be careful !

[inka]

thanks,
i am trying to be super-careful, that's why i got so stressed out the other day when we had the storm and i realized that my tarps are not keeping all the water out.

[Dave Hadfield]

Inka, now that's a boat worth restoring, for sure, and now we know where you're coming from.

I hope you get all the info and support you need.

Regarding tarps, there's a product called Tarp Tape and gromments called Tarp Grabbers that really work. I've made sails using them. The tape is specially formulated to adhere to that kind of plastic much better than duct tape. Check out: http://www.canvasfasteners.com/TarpGrabber.htm They may help you make a cheap, custom-fitted tarp. I'd recommend getting white (clear) tarp, since it's far easier to work under, even though it might not last quite as long.

[Ed Harrow]

Now this is a cover http://home.fiam.net/eeharrow/harrowhtm/cover.htm if I do say so myself. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

What a boat. What a beauty.

[dasboat]

Inka,What a beaut.

[imported_Ola Sylwan]

Inka.
I´m very happy to find that Marita has found her way into such capable hands as your´s.
You will find a way to fix her, but remember that she is a part of our heritage, blast mr Camitz who sold her away from us.
The very best wishes from Sweden and good luck.
Ola.

[PilotArt]

Inka,

That Marita is one beautiful piece of work. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

Another handy tape for sealing gaps and keeping out the wind and rain would be the aluminum tape used in assembling ductwork.

It could also be found in hardware outlets and will hold up better to the sun and weather than 'duct-tape'. It will hold a shape well and not shrink or let go.

Best of luck and keep posting.

Art

[inka]

so, antifreeze did the job and at least killed the mold and the fungus from blooming and is preventing it from coming back. yay!
i also did some work on the tarps so i'm ready for the weekend when the next rain is supposed to hit.

thank you all for your tips and advise

[This message has been edited by inka (edited 01-25-2002).]

[Capt.Pepe]

Goodmorning, I've a similar rot problem.
could anyone tell me where I can get "smiths
cfes" and also is borate the same as boric acid?
Thanks

[dasboat]

Inka,keep those great pictures comming as you progress.
Darryl

[imported_Ola Sylwan]

Pepe,
You are looking for CPES?
If you supply us with a mail address in your profile surprising things may happen.
Steve is found at: stevesmith@smithandcompany.org

[paul oman]

I'm in the epoxy business. Perhaps I can help or repeat what others have said. Antifreeze works well. Much of it will evaporate, what is left behind seems to bond to epoxy OK.

We have epoxies (even our regular bio seal marine epoxy) will bond to damp wood (or even underwater if necessary). Come spring, dry - air out the boat as best you can.

Seriously reconsider using expensive penetrating epoxies. I did some tests with them and NG (www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html)
The best known is 60% or more nasty solvent (in who knows what quality epoxy). Instead use a low viscosity epoxy and thin no more than about 10 or 12% with solvent (xylene is good). Will save you about $30 - $40 per gallon and more epoxy into the wood besides.

Note: the anti-freeze will kill the fungus, but so will the epoxy.

good luck

paul