Raven class one-design

[bamamick]

Anyone out there ever sail on one of these speedsters? Who built them? I assume that they were cold-molded. Is that right? Why didn't the class survive?

I have heard about these boats and their legendary speed characteristics all of my life, but have never sailed, or even seen one. When I got my latest Dragon a good friend of mine asked me to be on the lookout for a Raven for him. This guy was a great racing sailor in his day, but an illness has laid him low in recent years. A Raven came up for sail in WoodenBoat a while back and I let him know, but his health wouldn't permit him to get into it at that time.

Anyone have any stories about the Raven class? They've always been a mystery to me. Kind of like the old Suicide class, a boat that was once popular and just dissappeared.

Mickey Lake

[Ian McColgin]

By gar you may be right! Where did the Ravens go?

In the 60's we had one in Port Jefferson and I got to crew when they went to the Raven Nationals. As I remember, that family had two in succession: An older wooden Raven and a newer glass Raven.

Super cool boat with that huge main and itsey bitsey jib. They really would plane.

I remember one race - Manhassett Bay if I remember rightly - where on the second spinaker leg we saw a thunder cell roaring down the fleet from the south and flattening all before it. We simply cast off and let slip the 'chute, and managed to get the main down just before it hit. We were the only boat left upright when it blew past and we were flying under jib alone so fast that we feared we run out of water on the Connecticut side before it all stopped.

There's a boat that should come back.

[TimH]

There are several of them back on White Lake in Michigan. Great sailing boats.

[Tom Lathrop]

At 24 feet, Ravens are pretty big for a dinghy, which is what they are. One of the earliest sailboats capable of planing. Probably pretty expensive to duplicate today.

A couple of stories:

Roger Moorman of Gloster, VA built one (fiberglass) with a cabin and named it the Raven Mad.

Later built another with an aft cabin added and named it the Stark Raven Mad.

He also built some pulling/sailing boats for the Christ Church Boys School in Urbana, VA by joining two Raven forward sections to make one symetrical boat. Wet boats but fun.

[Ocean Spray]

I have a Raven . . . Hull# 271 . . . . .Built by Cape Cod Ship Building in 1958. They were designed in the late forties in Rhode Island to compete against the 210 and the Indian.
Great daysailor, twelve foot cockpit . . . . . . . nothing faster in light air . . . . . twenty four feet long, three hundred plus feet of sail . . . . weighs less than a thousand pounds.
The Coast Guard Academy had a fleet of them. There also was a fleet of them up in Marblehead during the sixties. Most of the boats were in the northeast U.S.
The only problem is when it gets windy and no keel and all that sail area you better have have some weight to help keep her flat.
On a good day she'll fly by a Star Class boat!

[rbgarr]

Ravens are still built by Cape Cod Shipbuilding for $18k+.

Then again there's this Raven model: http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/startrek/raven.html :D ;)

[ 10-05-2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[bamamick]

Thanks, rbgarr. I'll be sure to tell my friend, and I'll try and look them up on their website. I had no idea that the Raven was still being built. They keep that one pretty quiet.

$18,000 sounds about right in today's market. About what you'd pay for a jazzed up Lightning. I'm surprised the Raven hasn't made more of an impact. Everyone that I know that has seen them raved (bad, I know) about their speed.

Mickey Lake

[ 10-05-2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: bamamick ]

[JimConlin]

The Coast guard Academy HAD a fleet for intercolleciate racing. In a fresh wind, you need 4+ people or you'll swim.

Edited to correct brain cramp. The above statement was true in 1965. The S and D keys are near one another.

[ 12-17-2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: JimConlin ]

[Ocean Spray]

Jim, Do they STILL have a fleet of Ravens?

[Jan McAleer]

Belated replies on Ravens --- I guess I've been asleep and really missed this discussion. The Raven class is trying to reorganize and we'd like to hear from all interested parties. I don't know exactly why they went into a premature dormancy --- but it's time to get them out again.

[bamamick]

Jan, I wish you the best on getting the Raven fleet together. I told my good friend about the Cape Cod Shipbuilding boats and he said that he would look into it. I hope that he does. At one time he was a truly outstanding one-design sailor, but his business and his health have kept him from it for many years.

Best wishes.

Mickey Lake

[Ocean Spray]

Jan . . . . .Whom is doing the organizing ?
Raven #271

[Jan McAleer]

There are 2 of us ringleading this. Sean O'Malley grew up in a long-active Raven family and races regularly. His family has had all kinds of Ravens over the years, wood and glass, so he really knows the boat. I don't have one but am looking for that proverbial gem of a wooden boat. I got into tracking down the Raven class for nostalgic reasons -- my very early childhood (and my first terrifying sailing experience) was spent on Ravens. Quickly realized that they weren't just a "classic" relic but could still hold their own against newer boats. They deserved another chance. Cape Cod just built a new one, sent to Florida. And there's a pretty nice looking one for sale out in Cincinnati.

[Ravenmaniac]

Jan, Are you related to the Raven designer?

[Jan McAleer]

I'm the niece of Roger, the boat's designer. My Dad, John, would have described his role as "chief kibutzer" on the project. He was a meticulous fiddler and tuner of boats. Roger had just gotten his navel architecture degree. The whole thing grew out of family discussions, which included my grandfather. They decided to put their bull session theories of "how to beat a Star" to the test and lofted the 1st Raven in our front yard on a sheet of plywood. So goes the story. My Dad campaigned the boat during the first years and supervised the early production. I remember playing around in the hulls, collecting wood curls, etc. Probably why I'd love to find one of the really old ones. I need those neat slatted seats that the original ones had. And I'm not into trapezes, at this point.

[Jan McAleer]

Postdate -- sorry I haven't learned to spell.

[paul oman]

can someone post a picture of one?

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

[Jan McAleer]

There are some good pictures on www.strictlysailinc.com. (http://www.strictlysailinc.com.) They have a Raven for sale. Trailer pictures. I don't have any e-mailable sailing photos. We're working on getting some action shots scanned.

[Ocean Spray]

Jan . . . .looking at the photos of the Raven for sale, I'd say she is fiberglass. My Raven was built in 1958 by Cape Cod Shipbuilding and is built in fiberglass.
I have a Log that has followed my boat from the time she was built. It details how the boat was developed and designed by your father and your uncle Roger.
This Log remained current thru the seventies with tips on racing, class approved modifications, listing of fleets,
lists of every boat owner and thier location.
I have owned "Proud Mary" for twenty years, my brother Billy owned her previously for about ten years sailing around Annapolis, Maryland under the name Robin ll.
In light air, five to ten knots, I would say she is one of the fastest monohulls ever built !!!!!! She is also very, very pretty. I must say that I haven't seen another Raven
wood or glass in ten years. Once in a great while a Raven will appear in the classifides Soundings.
I would post some photos of my boat but I haven't
mastered posting yet.

[Jan McAleer]

The stories like yours are the ones that made me realize that the Raven wasn't a "dead" boat. As my dad got Alzhiemers and passed away, I realized that important family history was disappearing. I figured one of us should get in gear and find one, at least for scrapbook purposes. It was great to find how many were still around, with very enthusiastic owners. I'm the ignorant one on Ravens --- I have never even been on one as anything more than a very little kid. All of you know so much more about the real boat and its evolution. I still sail -- my Dad's old Scampi 30 --but am looking forward to actually getting on a Raven. As for other Ravens, there are pockets of them, especially one down in Port Jefferson. Rumor has it that Florida has a fleet (nobody check in yet). Texas, Michigan and Ohio too. And Alabama may have at least 2. And a few out in California, including the one that was in the WoodenBoat classifieds (trailered out). This is great.

[Raven0336]

Hi All,

My name is Sean O'Malley. I live in Huntington, NY, sail on the Great South Bay out of the Babylon Yacht Club and I own Raven # 336 ("Doodlebug II"). She was previously owned by my uncle Dennis O'Malley. I have been sailing and racing Ravens since I was a small boy as my father always used to a Raven as well. He first sailed # 12 ("Jim IIII") and then owned # 337 ("Jim VI"). Prior to my uncle owning # 336 he also owned the wooden boats # 24 & # 22, both also called "Doodlebug".

I have sailed on a variety of boats from classic older designs to campaigning a Mumm 30 on the east coast and in Key West. I have yet to find a boat that delivers the feeling of exhilaration the Raven does when she planes off. I am always caught a little off guard by the way she charges away from the dock in anything over 5 knots of breeze and how you have to luff the sails well in advance if you want to avoid a potentially embarassing and damaging meeting with the bulkhead after a race is over. I still marvel at the way she sails past larger, newer boats to leeward leaving their crew to shout after us, "What kind of boat is that??!!!". Nothing would make me happier than to see more than one Raven in the same place showing off what they are capable of to the crews of today's newly engineered, high priced Farr-esque designs.

Jan & I are in regular contact and are working toward establishing a website for the Raven this winter. Any suggestions of what anyone might like to see on the site would be of great interest to us both.

With best regards,
Sean

[Hwyl]

Here's a not very good picture. Seems like it's an Albacore multiplied by 1.5

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pf7983bd76b9f9f016ec35d80fae40e0a/f5d1114e.jpg

[ 12-22-2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Jan McAleer]

Going back to Tim's pretty odd story of the double ended Raven creation, what happened to all those rudders? Rudders seem to be very scare --- if anyone has any Raven rudders or other parts just hanging around, I bet we can find home for them. Also entire boats abandoned in barns are always interesting.

[Raven0336]

Hi All,

Yes! Jan's exactly right. Raven rudders are apparently scarce and in demand. If anyone has a lead on one or more, please let us know.

Also, we are collecting Raven images for a new brochure and eventual web site. Please forward any images you might have to either Jan or myself. Of course, digital is preferred but conventional photos will work also. We are most interested, at this point, in images of Raven's being day sailed by families & friends.

Hopeful of being inundated with photos!
Sean

[zowie279]

Hello All,

I own Raven #279 and sail it out of St. Michaels, Maryland. It was found in TN near my wife's Aunt's house.

We brought it up to Baltimore in 1999 and totally restored the boat. She got back in the water in May of 2000 and has been a dream to sail ever since then.

When I got her, she came with 2 rudders. On one, the rudder post was badly bent and the other looked good. After one sailing season, when I pulled the boat out of the water, it was evident that this rudder was bad also. The straps holding all the wood together were cracked in at least 15 places.

I ended up buying a new fiberglass rudder directly from Cape Cod Shipbuilding (they have been a great resource in getting my Raven up and sailing.) I may still have the original rudders, I will look.

Chip

[Mike Dawson]

I used to see the "Raven for sale" when I sailed my friend's Express 27 on Brookville Lake, Ind. about 40 miles NW of Cincinnati.

IIRC, a retired teacher brought it down from the Boston area in the mid to late 90's along with, over a period of time, an Etchells and a 110. Another person also brought in a 2nd Raven. The gentleman had some health problems and the boats have traded hands over the years.

The Raven reminds me of my old E scow with more hull and a pointy bow for rough water capability. A very nice boat.

BTW, Strictly Sail, the only sailboat dealer around, has VERY high prices and used boats usually sit on the lot for years. Most used boats there are on consignment.

[Jan McAleer]

Great to see the replies. Your experience with the rudders is interesting -- Sean and I just paid a visit to Cape Cod Shipbuilding and one of the things discussed was rudder construction. So, this is a great time for tales of experience and creative input. On Chesapeake boats, there were a couple of "big" Ravens built, one was rescued several years back as she was about to sink, abandoned on a mooring in Baltimore's harbor. She's covered in a yard now, the future a little uncertain. On the Ravens in Brookville, IN, one is the boat listed with Strictly Sail on consignment. I heard that the man owning the other recently passed away -- no idea what will become of the boat. I sent an e-mail to the Brookville Lake club and hope they'll keep an eye on it.

[johnw]

Now, why can't WoodenBoat distribute plans for boats like this?

By the way, around the early '50s Uffa Fox designed a dinghy for the Royal yacht that was very similar to a Raven called the Fairly Fox. 24' and 300 square feet of sail. They still sell plans for it.

[ 01-24-2005, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: johnw ]

[rbgarr]

Raven sails on ebay:

http://motors.search.ebay.com/_Parts-Accessories_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsacatZ 6028QQsamcmZ6028QQsassZejkauf99

[Donn]

.

[10000balches]

"Ian McColgin;1211106]By gar you may be right! Where did the Ravens go?"

Ian- did you ever hear of Maria and David Balch? They used to race Raven 152, the Torneremo out of Bellport, NY. Harvey Dolger was their crew. This was back in the 60's!

Does anyone know where building plans can be found?

Best-

Chris Balch

PS- Hi Jan!

[Hwyl]

California website here http://ravenclasssailing.org/ make sure your sound is off (nice thread to be resurrected)

[Ian McColgin]

Ahoy 10000balches; I didn't know the movers and shakers in the class and don't even remember the numbers of either the wood or the glass "Ruthless" that the Waldo's had. It does appear that there's an active class in California and I here our own Cape Cod Shipbuilding has the molds. Both because it's a strict one-design and because the hull shape is so deceptive I doubt one could get the lines and just home-build. However, like older Thistles, I hear of wood hulls lying about that some sophisticated restoration, TLC and a bit of mania could bring back to nearly competative standard. While used mostly for class racing, the Raven is actually a fantastic family daysailor, very seaworthy and able to teach traditional sailing values, unlike so many high-pismire tupperware abominations.

[bamamick]

An oldie but goodie!

Mickey Lake

[richincident]

Great thread to resurrect. I never sailed a Raven but I watched them roar by when I was racing as a teenager. There was a powder blue fiberglass one out of Bellport, NY.

The owner was Knute Lee and the boat was Eel. She and an R-Boat called Ellen (R4) were the fastest boats on Great South Bay. Eel packed a hunting horn and both boats were sailed with great flair. I think there were a couple of other Ravens, but Eel was the one to beat. In a very windy race at Bay Shore YC I was sailing our family Mercury--NOT a great heavy weather boat--up to the jibe mark when Eel and Ellen came roaring up on their second time around. There were Blue Jays and other smaller boats capsized all over the place.

I was debating whether to try jibing or just tack around. Ellen and Eel were both roaring like motorboats with HUGE bow waves and five or six crew members each. (Ellen, owned my (I think) McInerney, was gaff rigged and incredibly gorgeous--looked so antique but was the scratch boat).

When they got to the mark they both headed up and tacked. That solved it for me. I was the only one in a Mercury to finish the race. Everyone else either flipped or withdrew.

I would LOVE to find a Raven--my dream boat!

[10000balches]

If anyone hears of a restoration-needing Raven mouldering in a barn or field somewhere please do let me know. I build and restore boats and would love to get my hands on one of these wonderful craft that introduced me to sailing when I was a little scruffer. I'm not a big racer, but as suggested, she would make a great family boat. A family tradition. I really could restore most anything, so please do let me know of anything.

The Torneremo, Raven #152 was finally found. Sadly, it was involved in a fire, and destroyed. For at least some time, maybe even still, the bow was mounted on the wall of the Bellport Restaurant.

Anyone been there?

[richincident]

Eel and Ellen were also destroyed in a boatyard fire. Perhaps the same one.

Cape Cod Shipbuilding wants a cool $53,000 w/o sails for a new Raven. That might be slowing down class growth some.

Richard

[10000balches]

Just a bit pricey! I wonder why so much?

[Chip-skiff]

For those of us who've been wondering, here are a couple decos:

http://www.goodoldboat.com/newsletter/images/Torneremo.jpg



http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?FILE_id=2104

[JimConlin]

In the early sixties, the Coast Guard Academy had a fleet of them for intercollegiate racing. In any wind, it took a (relatively) huge amount of human ballast to hold 'em flat and still they weren't fast for their length.

[10000balches]

The top photo is a picture of the Torneremo. The man in the photo is my Uncle, David Balch. The photo is from the 1950's, taken by his wife Maria. He often single-handed (though not while racing).

I think this is the one I submitted to Wooden Boat and Good Old Boat mags when I was looking for the Torneremo. (Italian for "we will return")

Thanks for posting.

[Ian McColgin]

A Raven not fast? I don't recall any 24 footers that could keep up with that big mainsail in it's day. And a Raven stepped up on a plane, blasting along on a reach apparant wind tight enough to solve all spinnaker wobble is a trill beyond compare.

[10000balches]

Last summer I created a Yahoo Group for RAVEN sailors as a means of keeping in touch and trying to add some new life to this amazing class. Please consider joining and adding to the group if interested!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ravensailing/

[sonosail]

For those of us who've been wondering, here are a couple decos:

http://www.goodoldboat.com/newsletter/images/Torneremo.jpg



http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?FILE_id=2104

randy here from sailboatdata.com. Great boat, the Raven. Oddly enough, there seems to be a class resurgence in California. For the most part, they sail on some lake, the name of which I've forgotten.

Just wanted to bring up one thing that is off topic, sorry. I don't mind AT ALL if people use images from my site. Nor do I expect anY kind of attibution.
But when you do so, could you please be sure to copy them to your OWN computer first. Right now, the drawing displayed here, is being HOSTED by me. It's perfectly fine to just leave this little one as it is. But when they are larger files, the bandwidth can really add up. Just asking you to keep that in mind, because this is something that happens quite a lot.
Thanks, and sorry to interupt the thread.

Regards,
Randy Browning
sailboatdta.cm

[bamamick]

All new boats are pricey. I can't think of a boat of any size you can get for less than $25K new, at least not one you'd want. A new Finn with all of the stuff costs close to that much. Shaw in Thomaston, Maine was listing 210 hulls at about $28K, but I doubt that includes much. A new Dragon, just a base glassfibre boat with trailer and covers will cost you close to $100K US. It doesn't take a genius to understand one of the reasons for the falling popularity of sailing.

I think that this Raven fleet in California is something I would love to read more about. WoodenBoat needs to do a feature article on them.

Mickey Lake

[thebestskipper]

Now hold on a minute, Eel, Knute Lee's last Raven #313...powder blue yes.....did not burn up in a fire. It went out to Hampton Bays...... bought by Al Havel. The color got changed to Jet Black. Al sold it to Warren Woodard, renamed it Miranda II. It was sailed by Cindy Pierson out of Mount Sinai Harbor on the North Shore of Long Island. Injured is a N'wester one night the boat sat idle in need of repairs. The boat was stored for a couple of years by Mark Makowski..... purchased by me (John Tooker) 617 803 8460 in the fall of 2010. Since then it has been in the process of being restored.

The boat is going to be part of a fleet being put back together on Great South Bay. We have accumulated 7 hulls. All boats are for available to someone who is serious about restoring a Raven to be raced on Great South Bay. We also had a new Raven Hull built by Cape Cod Shipbuilding. The cost was nowhere near the price of 53K as on CCSBuildings website. If you wnt check out 'Raven' on facebook. There are also some older wooden Ravens available. We have hulls 340 (brand new) 339 never sailed yet, 337 totally reconditioned, 313 just about completely overhuled, 299 in need of considerable attention, 286 requires complete makeover and the old Waldo boat Ruthless #231 which really just needs a newcenterboard.

[richincident]

Wow! GREAT to hear that you are "repopulating" the GSB with Ravens. A small colony is a good start. Also VERY glad to hear that EEL is still around. What an awesome boat! I want one closer to home though--so I don't think I can join your new colony of Raven owners.

Even back in the 60's on GSB there were only a handful of Ravens--but they were just amazing to watch. I love my Soverel 28 but I would drop it in a second to get a hold of a Raven!