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Greg H
11-15-2002, 09:03 AM
Two boats going to windward, same tack, overlapping, close together. Why does the boat in the windward position need to tack away to clear her wind? My first impression is that the leeward boat would be blanketed by the windward boat.

rodcross
11-15-2002, 10:15 AM
The wind shadow (or better described as the area of wind disturbance) of a boat ahead and slightly to leeward includes wind deflected off the leading boat's sails to WINDWARD and causes the overtaking boat to be unable to point as well as the leading boat. Basically, if I'm leading, I have clean air and if our boats are equal in pointing ability, I can hold you there all day long. You'll never be able to climb over the top. Even a slower, smaller boat can hold a much larger boat in that spot, indefinately. If you're in that position, the leading boat has you. If you fall off, you're in his downwind shadow; Pinch and you're going slower, thus, there is no solution but to tack.I was sailing into Nantucket Harbor, where it gets narrow, last summer, and I was gaining fast on a SPRAY replica. I said, 'Well, maybe its time to take in the sails and motor in.' My son said: 'Just sail to windward of him.' I said that it couldn't be done, and to prove the point, I let him try. The closer we got to him, we dropped from 6kts to 4kts, we were still to windward and couldn't point as high as he could and that section of the channel into Nantucket is too narrow to tack.

Add that to your racing portfolio. It is very important to know that.

Rod

Greg H
11-15-2002, 02:09 PM
I get it smile.gif thanks

Check out this site, some interesting stuff.
Sails in windtunnls and related things. movies etc.
http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/

[ 11-16-2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

Greg H
11-16-2002, 09:29 AM
Another one....LV Cup

What is the overlap rule that seems to come into play at the leeward mark? Is it the same at the windward mark?

[ 11-16-2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

rodcross
11-16-2002, 02:46 PM
If, within two boat lengths of the mark and two boats are on the same tack, any part of the inside boat overlaps the outside boat, the outside boat must leave room for the overlapping boat to round the mark. Same rules at any mark except the finish line pin. There are times when a normal rounding to the proper course requires a jibe. Room at a mark includes room to jibe.

Wild Wassa
11-17-2002, 12:05 PM
Many racing dinghy sailors, 'especially' the board sailers, think that the overlap is, "we will be rounding the mark before you".

Warren.

ps, They tend to forget the overtaking rule. ..... take your penalties, :D .

Warren.

[ 11-17-2002, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Figment
11-18-2002, 01:01 PM
When I raced dinghies in college, it seemed like being on the same tack didn't matter. if on opposite tacks the port-tack boat was first to the twoboatlength circle, that boat had rights for room to round. that one got upheld by enough protest committees that eventually one learned to go with the flow.

bah. ICYRA should just up and admit that the only rule that counts is "he who yells loudest at the time of infraction shall win the protest"

[ 11-18-2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Sailortect ]

rodcross
11-18-2002, 04:30 PM
I've had several people insist to me that the overlap rules supercede the port/starboard rules, all the while with the rule book in their hands. Its absurd!

Maybe someone knows the answer to this question. I think I know the answer but I'm not 100% sure: I know that overlap rules apply to all marks and obstructions, but what about the committee boat?. I know I don't have to give you room at the start or the finish, but on a windward/leeward leg, there's the committee boat. I think it is an obstruction and overlap rules would apply. But... I'm a little insecure on this issue and I don't own a rule book. Well, I do own one, but its 30 years old and a few things have changed.

Another question; This one about luffing. It used to be that you could luff a barger over the starting line as long as any overlap existed. After the start, you could luff until the luffee reached a mast-a-beam condition. Now, at the start I can't go any higher than close hauled. That part I understand. What about after the start? What are the new luffing rules?

John B
11-18-2002, 09:45 PM
No luffing as far as I understand it but I AM confused. " hold yOUR PROPER COURSE" yelled assertively seems to keep them at bay anyway.
Works(ed) for me .
WASSA... you're a racing man. what's the answer?

A lot of people don't understand the overtaking rule either. I found out the hard way when a policemaninaboat told me off for suggesting a powerboat might like to give me some room once. I was overtaking while sailing. I was closehauled, I couldn't go higher and didn't want to go lower for hard reasons.It would have been hard if I hit it .I had to keep clear and tack on out of there.

Mrleft8
11-18-2002, 09:55 PM
I always found that yelling "BOOOOOOIEEEEE ROOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!" scared most other boats within ear shot clear off the course.... The other one was the response to the izod clad yuppies yelling "Starboard!" at me on the starting line..... I'd just look at them crosseyed and yell "PORT!" back at them....they usually cleared out before they got their paint scuffed.....

Todd Schliemann
11-18-2002, 11:09 PM
Rod,

The "luffing" rule is pretty clear. You can still take a boat head to wind when to leeward on an overlap. The rub is that you must clearly give them the opportunity to do so. Herein lies the gray zone. I have jammed it pretty hard on a few and they know the consequence. If they resist, well ... one more chance (with suitable vocals) and they come up only commensuate with my willingness to incur the cost of a collision. Same old game, only without the "mast-a-beam" out.

Have you ever heard the sound of two wooden boats hitting each other? Believe me, it crushes your heart.

Generally common sense rules the new rules - a lot less technical - but sensible and fair.

Try this link for an update on the rules.
http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/

[ 11-19-2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Todd Schliemann ]

Wild Wassa
11-19-2002, 12:57 AM
John B, The answer is to avoid collision at all costs. We race under the Victorian Yachting Club's rules.

The overlapping rule userps the overtaking rule, at all marks and obstructions, except at the pin and for both start and finish. Unless local rules apply, marinas close to the course etc. The boats travel so quickly. Some sailors call for an overlap 30 metres out. It's wise to grant some boats rights of passage. A Gwen 12 can do 15+ or 20 knots. Sailboards even faster.

Noone prepares for it, if it's not granted. The performance boats clean up the slowcoaches on a regular basis. The board sailors are the problem, ;) . That's why I like open handicaps, :D . I also like to, 'not grant the overlap'.

The sound of crashing boats is not nice. Usually it's FG against wood. Wood on wood is also impressive. Major damage on some occasions. We repair boats often, far too often.

Warren.

ps, I've sunk a boat. Just a bad call. A bullet hit us and ripped the boat apart. We breached and ripped the transom clean off a 16 footer. We didn't need a collision with another boat.

[ 11-19-2002, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Figment
11-19-2002, 09:06 AM
Are you sure the committee boat isn't an obstruction at the start? I remember getting burned at least once by a protest judge interpreting that it was illegal to "ride" a windward boat up into the committee boat because they had rights for room to clear the obstruction.
it was something about once the bow of the windward (barging) boat is behind the transom of the committee boat, they were trapped with no room to tack, and the committee boat had become an obstruction. evidently if I'd hailed "no room" or "leeward boat" BEFORE their bow overlapped the transom of the committee boat, I'd have been right, but by keeping my mouth shut until the guy was right on me I had surrendered my rights. The fact that I had 2 boats directly to leeward of me, and had no room to give, didn't matter.

or maybe the judge was just pissed because of the big black mark left on the outboard motor of the committee boat.