PDA

View Full Version : Got the plans for the Friendship!!!



cs
10-31-2002, 01:05 PM
Now it is time to start talking about alternate construction methods.

LOD = 22'-4'
Beam = 7'-4"

Plans call for:
oak frames 7/8" x 1-1/4" (9"c/c)
Planking 3/4" cedar (19-20 strakes)

What I plan to do is convert this to strip built. What can we do to convert this? Can the number of frames be reduced and spaced further apart?

Chad

JimD
10-31-2002, 02:58 PM
Right on, Chad! First thing I'd do is find an alternative to the oak as you'll always be left with doubts about its compatability with epoxy. I asked a very well respected designer about substituting an epoxy friendly wood for white oak on one of his designs and he said doug fir would do fine.

As for reducing the number of frames I'm not remotely qualified to answer, but even if you build according to the plans seems the worst outcome might be that you'll have a really strong boat.

I've just started work on an Amigo, will be building bulkheads with doug fir plywood. Some frames are laminated, some sawn, also will be DF, and will strip plank in DF as well. By all accounts I've heard its arguably the best all around wood and it keeps the shopping list simple. So structurally I'm building almost entirely of doug fir, although brightwork will be mahogany-ish such as okoume

jimd

mmd
10-31-2002, 03:21 PM
I would suggest that you could reduce the shell thickness if you are stripping the hull & sheathing it with 'glass in epoxy. Theoretically you can increase frame spacing, but as so many other things (bulkheads, c/b case, etc.) rely on the framing to be in the right place to provide support, you are better off not messing with it. Also, the amount of change would be minimal - maybe an inch or two per frame.

I heartily agree with JimD re: laminating oak frames - the failure rate of epoxy-laminated oak is significant enough to warrant caution. Thin D. Fir laminates in epoxy will have virtually the same strength as steamed oak.

A check with Dave Gerr's book "Elements of Boat Strength" will give very good guidance regarding shell thickness and frame scantlings. Do the numbers for both traditional plank on stem-bent frame and strip plank & laminated frames and note the differences. However, keep in mind that Gerr's formulae lean toward light yacht scantlings and a Friendship sloop is derived from a stout workboat heritage. Don't attempt to save weight by going for the lightest construction possible - it'll jump up and bite you in the butt.

Norske3
10-31-2002, 05:33 PM
FRIENDSHIP PLANS...FROM WB?...IF NOT HOW MUCH?...

[ 10-31-2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

cs
11-01-2002, 06:33 AM
I was thinking about subistuting southern yellow pine for the oak and doing the planking in doug fir. I don't think I will move the frames in if I would only pick up one or two inches.

Norske3 these plans came from the Maine Maratime Museum and by the time S&H got figured in they cost $56. This is the McKie Roth Friendship.

http://a3.cpimg.com/image/71/B9/13520753-7085-019701F4-.jpg

Chad

On Vacation
11-01-2002, 06:38 AM
Chad, while fishing this weekend in the inlet, and on the rare occassion without my camera, one sailed by us giving me a wonderful view of a pretty sailboat. The hull was of dark in color like this one you show, blue it appeared to be.

cs
11-01-2002, 10:06 AM
Whatcha doing going out without the camera? You need to get right back out there and look in every marinia and every hole and find that boat and get me some photos. ;)

Seriously though if you run across it grab some photos and send to me.

Chad

On Vacation
11-01-2002, 11:24 AM
Well, I am SOOOOORYYYRRYRRRRY. Now I am forgiven? It was a rainy, blowy day and fish slime was on my mind. You will learn all about the memory loss as you get older. Its the second that goes. :D I will look around this weekend. Matter of fact, I will go right now, after I go fishing for those beautiful trout biting on the outgoing tide in about thirty some odd minutes. Man , the sun is shining for a day and got to get my bait cut. Later.

Beowolf
11-01-2002, 03:58 PM
Hey Chad,

Glad to hear that the plans came in. You might seriously consider doing the frames in DF. As I've noted on several threads, plantation SYP is a whole lot differerent than the Old Growth stuff that is so often praised. I'm using SYP on the floors for my little daysailor and it's a whole lot less boat than you've got rolled up in your grubby mits.

Have fun. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

Jeff.

Chris Coose
11-01-2002, 08:28 PM
cs,
Can you send me a couple of lines as to why you'd take such a traditional beauty and start right out with alternate methods?
Thanks, Chris

On Vacation
11-01-2002, 08:42 PM
Blue is green to many, Chris. Many don't like green. thats the beauty of doing a boat yourself. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Its hard for many to accept that some choose not to march in the same line as some.

I enjoy dark hulls but this is not in the majority of hulls in the waters today.

Bolger stays in business for this very reason.

[ 11-01-2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Chris Coose
11-02-2002, 09:24 AM
Oyster,
The man wants to strip plank and reduce frames off a set of traditional drawings. As you may well know, this could lead into a number of large initial problems.
I'm certain there must be Friendships drawn for the construction methods he may have in mind, reducing early stesses.
Blue- Green? You can paint any color you like but if you have a traditionally planked hull you might want to keep a color as reflective as possible, for some very good reasons.

cs
11-02-2002, 06:09 PM
Chris, it is not that I'm really wanting to deviate from the traditonal construction, I was just thinking out loud.

When I first started thinking about a project like this I was considering to trailer the boat, hence the need for strip construction instead of carvell. I have now reconsidered keeping on a trailer and will probably keep at a marina.

I did look for other designs and found no others that really fit what I was looking for. The Roth friendship is almost perfect.

From what I gather strip planking is a cousin of carvell, except the planks are narrower, fit tighter and are edge fastned. Strip planking also gets its strength from the hull rather than the frames and is stronger than carvell. Thus this lead me to believe that maybe I could reduce the number of frames. If that is not the case I will not reduce the number of frames. But this is why I throw these thoughts out here to get your ideas.

Now give me your ideas on why strip planking would be a bad idea.

This project is still a little ways off (I've got other projects to finish first). I'm going to plan on this and throw around different ideas and we will see what comes out at the end.

BTW I'm a little leary of carvell planking in my situation. Carvell depends on being in the water for the planks to swell. If the boat is kept in a fresh water marine hidden in a calm cove what happens to the planks above the water line? Do they open up? If so you go out on a hard sail and heel it over you got water coming in. Now I may be wrong, so it is your job to correct me.

Chad

JimD
11-03-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by cs:


Now give me your ideas on why strip planking would be a bad idea.

ChadChad, the problem with strip planking is that it isn't traditional enough for the traditionalists, and you won't have any of the traditional never ending hassles of traditional methods. You will have stepped out of the 19th Century (or 15th C for that matter) and started using 20th and 21st Century wooden boat methods and every one knows plastic is just around the corner :D

On the other hand, what is more eye catching than traditional carvel?
jimd

Chris Coose
11-03-2002, 08:25 AM
Chad,
Not saying strip planking is a bad idea. I just wanted to know your thoughts on deviating from the plans.
There was guy here not long ago who had a fairly new strip built boat that had been glassed over before he got it. He came here after removing some of the glass and was in a mess about what to do next. The news was not good. A glassed over carvel boat could go the same way.
I am guilty of traditionalism.
When I read your first post, I had this scene in mind where a couple meets on the first and second dates. They get to know each other (reviewing the plans), they witness each other's shortcomings and somehow get the idea that with a little alteration here and there, their union will be devine. That might be true if each of them is inclined to be adaptable.
I just don't know enough about strip planking and its pros and cons in this application.
In the real world, there was a prety nice shaped double ended sailboat next to me in the yard last winter season. She was younger than my Victoria and has become a flower pot. The new owner was clueless about repairs and I've gotta say I wasn't a great deal of help, nor were a few of the wood handling yard guys. It seemed that she suffered from neglect and poor off season handling.
What ever you decide, I wish you good luck and adaptability.

JimD
11-03-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
Chad,
There was guy here not long ago who had a fairly new strip built boat that had been glassed over before he got it. He came here after removing some of the glass and was in a mess about what to do next. The news was not good. A glassed over carvel boat could go the same way.
Chris, I was thinking of that thread, too. If its the same one that poor fellow's problem was that the strips were white oak, so he was between the rock and the hard place; the narrow strips weren't designed for calking, and since they were white oak he couldn't very well glue them with epoxy and re-sheath with fiberglass. He couldn't even very well build up a lot of fiberglass over the hull to fully imobilize the strips because he would still have the bonding issue with the oak strips. So I think the moral of that story is don't strip plank with oak
jimd

cs
11-04-2002, 09:51 AM
I appreciate any and all input on this matter. I wouldn't glass over carvel cause I know carvel depends on the planks moving. Strip on the other hand doesn't.

Like I said I'm just throwing around ideas. From what I've read the reason strip planking wasn't as popular way back when was the problems about a good glue joint. With the introduction of epoxy this does away with this problem. You now have a gap filling glue that holds up well when in water. If you add a layer of glass to this I would assume that helps tie it all together.

What do you think about carvel planks above the water line opening up in calm water? Am I way off base here?

Chad

BTW I started off this thread talking about "alternate" methods to kinda shock and grab your attention. I think that strip planking is a perfectly accetable method to use, but depend on advice from others more experianced than me.

[ 11-04-2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: cs ]