Selfsteering

[Ian Wright]

I was going to buy a new trim-tab self steering gear for my trip next year to the Azores, but,,,,,,,,
I have to fit a new engine this winter, finally had enough with the old oily unreliable lump and therefore the boat budget is a little thin.
I have a late '60's Haslar gear and a mid '70's QME in the back of the shed so I plan to use one of them.
Questions. Is this false economy? Should I annoy SWIMBO and spend another couple of thousand?
Anyone still using old wind vanes?

Ian-cheapskate-W redface.gif

[Hwyl]

The Autohelm 2000 is pretty good. They're about $700 in the U.S.. I've never used a windvane for two reasons

1) I like compass courses ( I still dead reckon and I'm sure you do too)

2) They are least efficient when sailing downwind. Sailing downwind is the holy grail od cruisers (with reaching as a Craven image)

[Phil Young]

For tootling around local waters I'd go electronic. For offshore or extended cruising I'd go with the windvane, unless you're an electronics whizz, and have a full workshop and parts on board. Too many people get stuck waiting for parts for their electronic disposable self steering. An old style wind vane you can mostly fix if it breaks-and you can see if its getting worn or loose. And it doesn't use your battery power. And what's with the compass thing? If the wind changes, either you need to change your course or the set of your sails. Something that follows the wind will be less work. GPS will tell you where you are. And a handheld back up unit is cheap.

[Meerkat]

DIY!
http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/Drawing_List-3.jpg

http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/

http://www.hartley-boats.com/selfst.html

[Ian Wright]

Ta,,,,,,,
I've used electronics for steering for 20+ years and, mostly, with few problems.
Next years trip involves Falmouth to Horta twice. That's three or four weeks, to and about the same, from. If I try to stick with electronic steering for that time I will need to run the new oily lump every day to keep batteries charged up.
Hence I have dug out the old WV gears.
Mind you, I'll need to keep the other electronics fed and cared for. No doubt if I lose my GPS and Yeoman I'll fly into a panic and try to remember how I used to navigate...... So perhaps I should just carry extra diesel?

IanW

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ian, on the basis of my limited experience, the QME is next to useless means "100% useless", as she will take herself to windward anyway.

The Hasler trim tab gear is another matter.

I only sailed with one once, but it seemed to work nicely. On someone else's boat...

Still, it took Hiscock round the block quite nicely on a sort of big Vertue.

So, it may well be worth dusting off and sorting out. If I recall correctly, most of the bits that matter are made of Tufnol, which is still available and any local engineering shop can work it.

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
Ian, on the basis of my limited experience, the QME is next to useless means "100% useless", as she will take herself to windward anyway.

The Hasler trim tab gear is another matter.

.I wonder if the QME is worth taking as a spare,,,,,,,,? Probably not.
My Hasler gear is , unfortunately, the swinging paddle servo type, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work on Patience. It seems to be all there but Heath-Robinson was the co-inventor. (!)
In any case, if Hum Barton could get a Vertue to self steer only by trimming sails then why shouldn't I?
I'll do a search to see if I can find any drawings or instructions for the Blondie's antique
Perhaps a spare electronic tillerpilot and a solar panel might be the way to go? smile.gif

IanW

[ 09-03-2004, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Ian Wright ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ian the Hasler pendulum servo gear is MUCH better than the trim tab one. I would rely on it and not bother with the QME, unless like me you like to sail a floating chandlery (I am trying very hard to break that habit!)

You may need a bumkin type construction for it.

[PeterSibley]

Ian, I'm sure that if Humphrey Barton had had access to a Hasler pendulum servo self steering he would have forgone trimming sails gladly. ;)

[Meerkat]

Not to be tiresome about bringing up their name, but the Pardeys have some to say about windvanes. That's all they've ever used. They talk about making a vane sensitive enough to work running downwind and some other stuff I don't recall all that well. One thing I do recall is how Larry fashioned some Delrin (sp?) bearing surfaces to reduce friction and wear.

[paladin]

..Just remember...having the vane doesn't mean there shouldn't be a lookout at all times.....

[ErikH]

our Monitor vane (servopendulum) would steer fairly well downwind in heavier air, as the wind speed easily exceeds boat speed. It would steer exceptionally well upwind as well.

the problem lies not in downwind sailing in general, but specifically in downwind sailing where the apparent wind drops below a few knots. You can get or make extra large and light vanes to help with this problem, and one comes with the Monitor, but there's a point at which it simply won't work. I imagine the same would be true for all SP vanes, and that trim tab vnes (which are inherently less efficient) would crap out at an even higher apparent wind speed.

One solution I've heard used is to have a towed generator to power an autopilot. never SEEN it, but i've HEARD of it--though perhaps it's a myth. I've also heard (and seen pictures of, at least) of rigging various foresails to selsteer your boat downwind.

Personally our old boat had both AP and windvane. the windvane was far superior for almost all work. the only issue was that if the wind changed direction, so did you. (but of course with the AP, if the wind changed direction, you had to adjust your sails or AP). the AP requires more attention to the sails. the windvane requires more attention to the course. And the vane won't work while motoring, not that it's really an issue of course.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

if buying a new vane I would buy a Monitor, no question. It is better than the Aries which is better than the Hasler. But the Hasler is OK. QME is gutless downwind. I reckon.

[Jeremy Burnett]

There is a vane gear made down here called Autosteer.They do both pendulum servo and trimtab.I have sailed with one of their trim tab gears.It is not as powerful as a pendulum gear but on a docile boat would probably work well.I have heard good reports of the German Windpilot .I would rate a vane gear as essential equipment way ahead of electronics.You are right to be concerned about fuel useage,people on long passages in small boats tend not to do much motoring.If your tank lets you motor for say two days that is not much out of 1200 miles.Haslers are good gears there are still many in use.

[paladin]

Somewhere I posted a picture of me when my beard wuz still somewhat brown and not white...I wuz in an orange survival suit in the cockpit of my 38 footer off the coast of Iceland in the mid-late 70's.......someone with sharp eyes can read the name on the autopilot...WINDPILOT....and it made a circumnavigation plus with no problems.....The monitor did well on the next boat..but...I sold it...went to a trim tab and small electric pilot...and a towed generator.......the only problem in three years was the linkage.. I learned to check it every thirty days or so...it would last about 90-120 days and for some reason drop the cotter key, the nut would vibrate off and the linkage would drop......

[Phil Young]

A tiller pilot, driving a trim tab rather than direct to the rudder is a solution that I've heard works well. Low electrical drain as the trim tab does the work. Kinda simpler than a lot of wind vanes. Take 2 tiller pilots though!

[Ian Wright]

OK then, I’ll go with the Hasler gear though swimbo did remark that ”It looks like two bicycles mating” . A coat of paint will help plus a new worm drive (if I can find one) to replace the somewhat worn old one. A spare vane and paddle or two might be a good idea to add confidence.
Questions:-
Does the counterweight arm on the vane need to exactly balance the vane? The one I have is heavy on the vane side.
Will the tiller lines benefit from ball bearing blocks to reduce friction?
What line should I use? I suspect that my preference for hemp and cotton three part rope might need to be suppressed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

IanW

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

OK,

1. Vane should remain vertical, so counterweight should be a little heavier. But only very slightly. Of in doubt make the vane lighter rather than the weight heavier, as you want to get almost all the friction out of the system.

2. You need ball bearing blocks! See 1 re friction!

3. Yes, this is not a place for tarred hemp. Get the highest-tech, least stretchy, line that you can possibly manage.

The worm drive does not do much, as I recall.

[hancopoot]

Ian,

When you look for a high performance Windvane, search for Holland Windvane, the best known secret in Selfsteering.

Hanco

[Rick Starr]

Hi Hancopoot,

You just gave us a start! Welcome to the forum.

Ian passed away some time ago, a bit after making the trip he was planning for in this thread.

[John B]

Thanks for the bump though. Both the topic and to 'see' some old friends.

[Michiel]

It's interesting, there seem to be 2 windvanes that no one has heard about! I cams across another one www.mistervee.com (http://www.mistervee.com) I did a seach on it but did not find any posts in userforums. I am thinking of buying some sort of self steeringsystem for my folkboat. Any thoughts anyone?
Michiel

[donald branscom]

To decide on ANY self-steering device or ask for advice on one you would need to tell us if the boat is wheel steered ,Tiller or hydraulic steering. Also The rig has to be balanced for the self steering to work properly.

The servo -pendulum type vane is the most advanced because it allows for yaw of the boat. With less than 3 knots of wind you would want an electric auto pilot as well as the windvane.

I worked for 11 years and made many improvements to the Monitor windvane, I was a welder for Scanmar international and welded 2.400 windvanes and made repairs to many others.You could give Hans Bernwall in California a telephone call or internet messege to Scanmar International or go to www.selfsteer.com You could get info on several types of windvanes.

[Michiel]

Thanks Donald,

I had a look at selfsteer.com but the monitor seems a bit too much of an oil rig to me, both in looks and weight. This mister vee seems very light at 8 kg and is a lot LOT cheaper then anything else i came across. My folkboat is a mahogany on oak 7.65 m boat with positive transom and transom hung rudder.
Michiel

[kc8pql]

Ian,

When you look for a high performance Windvane, search for Holland Windvane, the best known secret in Selfsteering.

Hanco

May be worth noting that Hanco is the builder of the Holland Windvane. That makes his post a back door advertisement.

[donald branscom]

Thanks Donald,

I had a look at selfsteer.com but the monitor seems a bit too much of an oil rig to me, both in looks and weight. This mister vee seems very light at 8 kg and is a lot LOT cheaper then anything else i came across. My folkboat is a mahogany on oak 7.65 m boat with positive transom and transom hung rudder.
Michiel

Dear Michiel,

The Monitor windvane is not heavy (66 lb.s if I remember correctly) considering it is like having another crew member aboard to steer your boat. Compare that with other brands. It doesn't need to eat or sleep and does not complain .
By the way that Hasler gear you have would be VERY interesting a a historical exhibit. Seriously.
Your outboard rudder is not a problem as far as the windvane is considered.
Good luck with your plans Michiel.

[Bill Lowe]

Aries used one for 38000 miles re-bushed some of the bearings about 1/2 way, needed tweaking in light air and a neatural helm, steered for 24 hrs under bare poles off South Africa.

[richey]

I have a Tahiti ketch. It had a Hasler vane with about 6 feet cut off the mizzen boom to accommodate the vane. No way I was going to go with that. I built a new 11 foot boom (the correct size) and now the old vane won't work. Does anyone out there know of a way to use a vane system with a overhanging boom?

[wizbang 13]

I have a gaff ketch also (and a monitor),not Tahiti. Mizzen toppinlifts is my answer. Upwind, of course, the steering machine is un nessesary. In the future, (like when you get a new mizzen). making the clew a foot or 2 higher can help,without too much sacrifice in "performance". (performance in a Tahiti, almost spit my beer) What happened to the original hassler? servo with "vertical "axis I recall