kayak question

[Jim Budde]

Built a CLC 16' single this spring. Saturday was first time I had it on a larger lake with wind .. all previous outings had been on protected small lakes in evening w/ no wind to speak of.

Anyway, Saturday was different .. winds 10 - 12 with a light chop. Handling kayak was like riding a stuborn horse who wanted to get back to the barn ... no matter what I did, the kayak wanted to point towards the wind. If wind was off starboard, kayak turned to the right ... if wind off port, then it wanted to point to the left.

Do I have a construction problem or is it just that I am an inexperienced kayaker? If it makes any difference, the paddle I made is fethered 90 degrees .. so I do not think the out of water blade was acting as sail. ...

[bheys]

Jim - Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but a skeg or rudder is a foolproof solution. If that's not in the cards, you can shift the center of gravity by moving the seat or otherwise shifting the load. If all else fails, just move your grip on the paddle off-center.
Our family was recently paddling in the Southeast Arm of Lake Yellowstone where the afternoon weather can make the lake pretty crazy. My son (an able and strong paddler)indicated that our newest kayak (Redfish Return, no rudder or skeg) pulled strongly to the left in the stronger winds. He thought I had built it skewed. Funny thing, the following day he said it pulled right.

[Bruce Hooke]

If you can get some weight out of the bow, or get some more weight near the stern (or shift yourself backwards a bit in the cockpit to achieve the same end), that should help.

[htom]

Bruce nailed it. This is topsides windage and boat balance at work. Bow goes into the wind, the stern is too high, move back in the boat. Bow goes away from the wind, the bow is to high, move forward.

[Jim Budde]

Thanks, folks. Since the cowling is fixed and seat back is flush w/ back bulkhead, I cannot shift my weight any further to stern ... so I 'll try Bruce's suggestion of adding weight in the stern compartment .. any suggestions about amount of weight? Start with, say 5# and adjust up or down accordingly?

[Del Lansing]

Never tried a kayak and won't even pretend I want to. But, a fellow in our club does a bit of kyaking and told me that to steer it you lean to the opposite direction from where you want to turn; lean left-turn right. Maybe that's whats happening as you lean from the force of the wind you then turn up into the breeze?

[George Roberts]

Jim Budde ---

Assuming you put the cockpit in the correct place ...

You have a problem. If you set the trim for the wind, you have the wrong trim for currents.

Given the small power output of a paddler, small boats often work for a limited range of loads.

Adding weight is a poor solution.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I agree with George. Weight is not the answer since you need to get out and unload the boat to adjust it and then get back in and try it to see if you made things better or worse. If you can't adjust the fore-and-aft position of the seat (or of the paddler on the seat) the next option is going to be a rudder or the British-style adjustable skeg (which would be my first choice as they work quite well). The skeg-box will take up more room in the stern compartment than ideal, but it's worth it to stop, or at least significantly reduce the weathercocking.

[Dan Cavins]

Hey Jim. I built a San Javier about seven years ago. I hardly knew what weathercocking meant, mine tracks like a train, wind or whatever. Then I rented some kayak, a real 17' sea kayak, while out of town. Holy cow I had to paddle the thing like a canoe. I found out what weathercocking was.
Everything I've heard sais CLC makes good boats, you might call them for ideas. Also check some kayak sites, they may be more well versed in this.
Seems to me the rudder may produce as much drag as added weight. By the way my boat has a small fixed skeg and no rudder. Good luck, that is irritating, but bet you can fix it. Let us know, Dan.

[ion barnes]

I Had a chat with a builder of a Cape Charles as I am interested in building one when I have a slack moment. His one piece of advice was to a gallon jug of water in the stern to help it track. I tried this on a Rubbermaid 9' kayak and it worked great. It would slew about with a mind of its own, and now its real docile. Ion

[LisaS]

I've got two Chesapeakes that I built, and can weigh in here. It's a high volume boat with a lot of freeboard exposed to the wind. They weathercock quite a bit, especially if you have a quartering wind and a following sea. I would second the suggestion to add a gallon jug (or two or three) of water to the stern hatch and see if that doesn't help. These boats are designed so that you can stuff a weekend's worth of camping gear into them and still float, as well as hold a sizable paddler. If you are out for an afternoon paddle with just you and your basic safety gear, you're floating quite high. A small fixed skeg or a rudder might fix it in the short run, but you need to build your paddling skills without the crutches so that you don't rely on them and not skill.

Lisa

[Ian McColgin]

A retractable skeg - basicly an aft mounted centerbard - is pretty easy to retrofit. It will help.

I'm deeply prejudiced against rudders for a number of reasons, including:

They encourage lazy (though utterly inefficient) paddle techniques which will limit your range;

You'll tend to paddle from the arms rather than the big muscles of torso and legs;

You can't correctly 'knee hang' in any of the extended braces;

They are a huge hazard in most self and multi boat rescues, including making it hard to rescue a person who's detached from their boat;

They do not give the turning power you really need in higher winds anyway.

The remarks about high volume are spot on. I have a high volume exceedingly narrow nordcap type nicknamed by some psycho-yak. Her name is 'Lacey' - really from Hugh deLacey, Granuaile's lover. With her light, it's like sitting on a bike at a stop light without putting your feet down.

That is until I heard from the previous owner how on a paddle from Woods Hole to Penakese - you know know the area will know this is not a trivial romp - he loaded her with his own and other people's gear. About 200# extra stuff. She handled like a dream.

I got some flat square plastic covered interlocking weights from a friend who was tossing his exertroture machine and epoxied in wood rails that would catch the weights on either side and were slotted for straps. With 40# astern of me and 30# ahead, I Lacey is dead neutral - she won't weather cock or pay off in the wind. More to the point, she's stabile.

Unballasted she'd flip me at about 30 degrees no matter how I moved my upper body. Now I can immerse the cockpit rim without needing to brace.

This means I can also look around. Used to be I'd be upside down if I tried to look back!

A high volume boat really should be treated as designed. If you're day paddeling, put some weight in to get her down to her marks. This is true of any boat, whether kayak or peapod or what.

My new boat, a Nigle Foster Shadow named Clare (after Granuaile's special island in Clew Bay), is easy enough to use unballasted but I've been experimenting with ballast nonetheless. Unlike Lacey, Clare has the more normal large keyhole cockpit. Unballasted and using a paddle float, I can stand up. Momentarily. Once I'm ballasted, I expect to be able to paddle standing, at least in calm water.

Lacey has no skeg but has in interesting at the water verticl stern. Clare has a skeg which is nice enough.

This could come in handy exploring marshes as there are times when getting your eyes above the sedge is a good thing.

Learn both high and low braces and sweeps. If you just stand next to the boat with one hand at the forwad edge of the cockpit and the other at the rear and try to twist the boat as if it were turning, you'd find considerable resistance due to the boat's long straight shape. Shift your hands to one side and roll her over on her bilge so the cockpit is almost immersed and try twisting again. Treseasy!

When you can highbrace sweep at a standstill past 90 degrees and low brace past 60, you're just about passing from beginner to intermediate. My sister and several of my friends can make a high brace sweeping turn moving at speed either ahead or astern through 360 in one sweep! (It'll be a milestoen when I get to 180.) This is the kind of turn that will get you around if you're caught a couple of miles off in a rising wind.

Just Saturday I retrieved a guy out infront of our our breakwater. He was in a Nekky with rudder but the southwester with waves hiked up by the ebb kept him pointed to the wind and he could not get her to paddle around, no matter how much rudder he gave it. I put my bow line (a controversial item that many seakayakers eschew but I love it) on his stern toggle and cranked him around.

You may be a bit smaller than my 250#, but I found once the boat was ballasted correctly, I could make her head up a little by leaning forward and off by leaning back. The cockpit, again, is small, and this is simply weight shifting of the upper body. Times like that make having a head like a rock - or at least that heavy - useful!

Last remark. Get Derrick Hutchinson's seakayaking book and paddle that way. Don't talk twice to any 'instructor' who thinks that the paddles feather angle should be anything other than 90 degrees.

G'luck

[ 08-27-2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[LeeG]

Yes the Chesapeakes weathercock moderately but unfortunately paddler skill is limited to correcting it as the conventional technique of leaning on the blade side during a sweep stroke doesn't result in as effective turn as other kayak designs. The Chesapeakes have submerged chines and not much rocker so although slight leans on flat water do result in normal response once you get into waves or greater lean for compensating against weathercocking you won't get greater turning effectiveness.
A skeg kit was put together three yrs ago to address that. There are other s&g designs that are more responsive.
Before you do ANYTHING make sure that you have adequate thigh bracing and learn how to lean the boat. Derek Hutchinsons video "outside the cockpit" is very good for developing a sense of boat control.
In my 5yrs as a kayak instructor I see that very few folks 'get' the connection to moving the blade with their torso/abdominal muscles,,,even fewer connect their blade to the stern in a strong sweep stroke. Go to Mariner Kayaks website for misc. information about paddling technique.
Don't move your seat back to the back of the coaming,,you'll reduce the mobility of your torso,,give your spine a wide fist distance from the back of the coaming.
Anything you can do to reduce tight hands will go a LONG way to good paddling technique in order to learn where the paddle is effective and how to orient your wrists/forearms to the effort. Regardless of the feather or type of paddle. My .$02 is that 90degrees is unecessary.

[LeeG]

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Technique/index.cgi

It'll take awhile to make it move,,this is like cycling or rollerskating,,there's technique involved. The less you swing the paddle left and right and the more you notice how and where the blade enters and CATCHES the water, how your gut makes the boat move,,and where the blade RELEASES the water the more you'll get it to go where you want. Oh,,if you can't connect to carved minicell thigh braces then you might as well throw on a rudder or electric motor. Paddling a kayak without adequate outfitting is like driving a car while sitting on a bar stool.

[George Roberts]

Jim Budde ---

Thinking about your comments about making a 90 degree feathered paddle ...

If you are a novice paddler, there is little hope for you to gain paddling skills (quickly) alone.

Books will not help you enough.

I think you need a good instructor.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
A retractable skeg - basicly an aft mounted centerbard - is pretty easy to retrofit. It will help.

A high volume boat really should be treated as designed. If you're day paddeling, put some weight in to get her down to her marks. This is true of any boat, whether kayak or peapod or what.

Last remark. Get Derrick Hutchinson's seakayaking book and paddle that way. Don't talk twice to any 'instructor' who thinks that the paddles feather angle should be anything other than 90 degrees.

G'luckIan, agreed on the skeg. Regarding the comment about getting the Chesapeake "down to her marks" I'd agree,,sort of. I built one and used it for a couple seasons in the flat water around Annapolis and on the coast, Assateague and S.C. coast. Most sea kayaks are oversized for the person paddling it but the Chesapeaks are essentially tapered bricks without much flare in the side panels so on one hand a 150lb person is light in a CH16 with LOTS of freeboard to lean over onto, on the other hand that freeboard is pretty "dumb" as it's utility is primarily load carrying capacity and doesn't result in significant changes in turning ease. What I'm saying is that the Chesapeakes "marks" are designed according to displacement with very little regard to handling. If you get in your Nigel Foster kayak in waves and follow it with the Chesapeake you'll see what I mean. The major characteristics of it's "marks" are primary stability and straightline speed, two somewhat contradictory characteristics with the consequences that it feels "dumb" and unresponsive. I don't think this is noticabe by 80% of the flatwater paddlers out there. A designers intention might be different than a users,,to put it another way one can make an inaccurate assumption about the designers intention. It might be that "X" displacement is a consequence of "y" draft. Which is fine for big boats, trawlers and ships but for a kayak it's less important than what the shape is.
Regarding paddle feather,,why discount a particular populations opinion? what is it about a right angle that makes sense over any increment between 0 and 90? why not 92 degrees?

thanks for the opportunity to ramble

[LeeG]

Jim, what the heck I'll give it a stab,,concerning paddling technique if you think of your kayak as a canoe with one person in the middle as opposed to two paddlers in the ends you'll get closer to what you have to do with your blade to control the boat. In a canoe the forward paddler is in a position for horsepower and the aft paddler in a position for steering.
Put one paddler in the middle of the canoe, cut the sides down and have them sit in the bottom,,ta da they're in a kayak. That means the PADDLE has to work in the forward part of the canoe/kayak for forward efforts and in the aft quarter for turning/steerage efforts. Simply swinging the blade on either side doesn't do it.
Ok,,so imagine that there's a clock dial around the paddler with the bow at 12 and the stern at 6. For a forward stroke the blade is immersed (CATCH) at 1pm and travels (POWER)in a straight line to 3pm with the blade out from your hips about where the hour hand would be with the RELEASE at 4pm. Now this is a theoretical ideal with the catch and release points changing according to steering direction and a million other things. But the general idea is the effort is "up there".
For steering the effort is much, much more effective from 3pm-6pm and 9pm to 6pm. With about four times (made that up) more effectiveness from 4-6pm than simply paddling harder up at 2pm. If you ever find yourself paddling more than 3times on one side in 5-10mph breeze then you should STOP and slow down to check where you are planting and releasing the blade. I find very few paddlers with less than a couple yrs experience able to utilize the 4-6pm arc or the 8-6pm arc. It's a little like someone being able to touch their toes,,if you can't touch your toes and decide on taking yoga it's about the same thing as not being able to sweep the blade, with correct blade angle with effort, in the aft quarter. It really takes a LOT of rotation to keep a 16'+ kayak on course in 15mph breeze efficiently without resorting to paddling harder on one side or using reverse rudder strokes.
ok,,forward stroke blade path is roughly a straight line starting near your toes and extending away from your hips,,don't make a vertical canoe stroke out of it. This is the important distinction with a sweep stroke,,it is an ARC best applied with the blade farther from your hips and behind you.
You can blend a forward stroke to a sweep stroke but YOU have to make the distinction WHERE the blade goes as it's VERY easy for a sloppy forward stroke that is simply a harder effort to take the place of a blade put in the right place with the effort coming out of the gut. Your shoulder joint CANNOT allow proper blade position in a sweep stroke WITHOUT a tremendous rotation of your torso. Like the effort it would take to be able to touch your toes if all you could do is get 6" from them. It just takes time and effort to develop the mobility and strength in your torso. A simple exercise is to put your blade in at 3pm with a LOW shaft angle, sweep to the stern WITHOUT changing the bend in your elbows, then push the blade back to the 3pm position. The blade should follow a 1/4 arc WITHOUT the blade face rotating up. Keep your pulling elbow and shoulder low,,hell keep everything low so the blade can describe a wide arc WITHOUT straightening your arm. If done correctly your shoulders will almost be in line with the centerline of the kayak,,,this is like being able to put your hands flat on the ground next to your feet. Ok,,that's not really necessary for compensating for weathercocking but it's a clue what kind of range of motion we're talking about once you toss in 20mph winds and 2' waves when you HAVE to turn in a kayak that is hard to turn. That's why some folks like responsive boats, it's easier than putting ones hands flat on the ground. I don't take yoga anymore or can make may hands go flat on the floor (belly too big) but the potential in the aft quarter to keeping a stiff tracking and weathercocking kayak (which the Ch16 is far short of the extreme in those attributes)on course is like that.

[viastra]

Jim,

Not sure what model CLC kayak you have, but most of these are sea touring kayaks with the exception of a few sleeker designs for racing. Assuming you have a touring model, it is designed to hold quite a bit of cargo, both my Cheasapeake and Cape Charles handle tremendously better when the bulkheads are full of gear. I paddle mostly off the Maine coast and wind and chop are often considerable. When the kayak isn't loaded down, it does catch a lot more of the wind. If you are going to use the kayak empty most of the time, consider the CLC retractable skeg add on kit or plans. Also, you will find in time your paddling technique in these conditions will improve with experience.

[ion barnes]

Thanks, I consider myself to be a mere novice in a kayak, but have an understanding of the basics of boat design principals (Skene's Elements of Yacht Design), and have the destinct impression that most kayaks are not designed or investigated after the initial design process, in a common manner so as to help the purchaser make a qualified decision. The salesperson is certainly biased therefore not creditable and most kayak owners are short on expertise as well.

Something as simple as pounds per inches of emersion and roll rate at a specified weight over bareboat could be helpful.

Right now, I can look in our Buy, See, or Trade mag and find several columns of kayaks purchased and used once or mimimumly because the owner was sold an item that did not suit them. Perhaps it was nature at arms length was too close, but I have never heard that from those who have tried and given up. It has been more of a case of no instruction before purchase, an expectation of buy an go and been frightened by experience. All in all, a reciepe for a disaster. It has been documented that small vessels have the largest accident rate and its no wonder when they are the entry level of boating, and it is the one level that has the least regulation. I, for the record dislike regulation, but jeeze can we have some common sense? Its no mystry to me why I teach boating courses for an operators card but it dosnot reach the very ones who are most responsible for the accident rates. That been said, I wish that the manufacturers and designers of free plans be more responsible with the estimation of the values of their designs and the commercial sellers refuse the sell their product to the untrained public.

I hope I didnot stray too far off topic but it is an important aspect of the sport. Ion

[LeeG]

IB, designers of some kayaks will give lbs/in' of immersion but that is from a "designed displacement" which may be derived from an arbitrary draft designation with NO on water testing of whether the kayak "does well" at a particular load. Between the consumer aspect of water toys like kayaks and the science/art of kayak/boat design there's a lot of room for making stuff up. Something to keep in mind is that a 4,000lb sailboat doesn't carry 20,000lbs of sailors whereas a 40lb kayak often carries a 200lb paddler.
It's entertaining and mildly tragic to see the goofy attempts to reinvent the wheel.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Maybe it's just because I'm pretty picky, but I can think of plenty of kayaks that probably would have great numbers, if such things were routinely quoted, but which I really don't like and wouldn't care to own. In order to "shop by numbers" I think you would first need to narrow your desired parameters down to very specific numbers and about the only real way to do that is to paddle kayaks for a few years in varying conditions. That would seem to limit the effectiveness of the numbers as a selection tool in the first place. It also doesn't take into consideration things like "Is the seat comfortable and does it fit your very own rear end?" which though hard to put a number on may be just as important as almost any other characteristic of the boat.

I've owned over 20 decked boats over the years, mostly kayaks with a couple C-2's and C-1's thrown in. At the same time, I've probably test paddled fifty more that I was originally quite interested in, but which I wound-up having no desire whatsoever to own for one reason or another. Many of them have been used quite successfully by other paddlers, so I can't say they are bad boats and they would no doubt rate pretty well in a numbers-oriented system. They just weren't right for me. I've pretty much come down to a "If I don't try it, I don't buy it" frame of mind.

[Ian McColgin]

Todd is surely right that a boat that works well for one person may not work for another for many many reasons.

Just a few random remarks:

Why 90 degrees rather than 92. Well, there's a difference that's maybe within experimental error. Basicly, in a nice forward stroke with lots of large muscle usem the blade is naturally feather through 90 degrees, which happens to put the up blade feathered to the air. You don't risk carpel tunnel at all. Very easy. In light seas, I practice just holding the paddle loosely and letting the blade (mine are symetrical and my stroke has complete blade immersion) find its place in the water. Relaxing.

That orientation also makes it easy to orient the blade in any extended paddle brace or role. It's more comfortable to hold than unfeathered and more orientable than those wierd 60 degree paddles.

On weight and such. The boat I've already ballasted is a nordcap type. Very narrow. Before ballasting, I could not turn to look around without first making a sculling brace.

It's interesting to compare the nordcap (Lacy) with the Nigel Foster Shadow(Clare) and my friend's Derrick design current design - forget the name but it has the girrl and dolphin graphic.

Lacy is far and away the fastest. With ballast she takes a bit more to get going but once moving it's no harder to paddle fast. The Derrick design is an easy next.

The Derrick and Clare are same LOA and B but Clare has a chine and carries her beam about to the chine with very little flare. The Derrick is round bottom and has more hollow bow and stern.

Both with my weight have unbraced tip angle at about the same place.

I'm not personally familiar with the CLD boats, but I'm not sure bottom rocker has much to do with turning in comparing these boats. The derrick design and Clare have minimal rocker. Lacy has none.

Tipping to turn does not begin to pay off until you get the bow and stern out of the water. To do this, you must rock way onto the bilges - like spray skirt mandatory to avoid downflooding the cockpit - and the whole action is dynamic as the stroke is both turning and holding you up.

Even a boat like Clare, pretty stabile with just the paddler, benefits from carrying either gear or ballast. Even though the waterline beam does not increase much on the boat, in contrast to Lacy, just getting her down in the water reduced the metacentric and makes the windage negligable.

I don't know why anyone would design a high windage kayak.

[Jim Budde]

Thanks for all the information ... I particularly like the reminder that kayaking is like skating or biking .. it takes practice. I'm afraid I had gotten way ahead of the learning curve .I also like the suggestion for lessons .. not sure who I'll find in eastern Nebraska, but it's worth a try.

The water jugs did make a difference, too. And although there was about 3" of possible aft movement of back brace, I stayed w/ design as most of y'all indicated ... now if it will just stay warm long enough to get several weekends of practice in

Thanks again for all the help

[ 09-02-2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Jim Budde ]

[George Roberts]

Ian McColgin ---

Big feet lead to high windage kayaks.

[LeeG]

It's interesting how different design elements can get one to the same place. In s&g four panel hulls some boats can have some rocker and sharp entries that "unweight" the ends to make turning easier in a lean and some, others can have very little rocker yet still turn on a lean from flare as the buoyancy of the flare at the hips. Your molded boats have softer bilges (the chines on the Nigel Foster hull are more cosmetic near the ends) to the ends that don't resist turning although they (the Nordkapp) may need a strong lean to have it occur. The Chesapeake has submerged chines WITH nearly vertical sides so there's NO change in turning ease at extremes of leaning. This is about as wrong in handling for a kayak as intentionally designing a hogbacked hull.
Why a high windage hull? It only happens when there isn't enough weight in the hull,,for most kayaks it's simply a consequence of show room performance so a consumer feels comfortable sitting in the kayak to make the sale quicker. Look at Perception touring kayaks,,even the "smaller persons" models are fine for a 6' person.

[Ian McColgin]

I have the impression that Lee is a more experienced and more diversly experienced kayaker than I but from what I've seen of the CLD boats, I'm not following his arguement.

If someone has a CLD, try this with two people, one in the boat and one standing next to it in water a bit over knee deep.

Part A. Boat upright. Person standing simply grabs the gunnel lines on either side of the cockpit, or the cockpit rim fore and aft, and twists the boat. Gain a muscle impression of how hard it is to turn the boat.

Part B. Fellow in boat rocks her over at least to cockpit rim immersion, staying upright by hanging on to the companion's head. Same twist from the guy in the water.

Which one is harder?

[ion barnes]

Well I am an olderguy with a stiff back and I can not do a lot of the manuvers that some people suggest. I did take an intro course in kayaking and spent about three hours in the classroom and about five in the water. It was a very long day but I really appreciated the experience. I shake my head in disbelief at the risks that some take after what I was told.

I also have BIG feet(#13),6' talland weigh in at 235# and yes I can relate that to windage/wetted surface. I require a hull with a lot of depth four feet in front of me that is either in the air or buried in the water. Its one or the other which concludes with the fact that a kayak is a compromise of factors based on the preferences and needs of the operator, just like anyother boat. Thats the key. Ion

[Todd Bradshaw]

Width at the foot area can also be substituted for depth without increasing deck height and varies a lot from boat to boat. I'm 6'4", 200 lbs. on a good day with a 13 shoe. My Mariner II has a very narrow bow due to it's Swedeform shape. My heels are together and the ends of my toes are against the deck wearing just soft-soled neoprene booties. No room for heavier shoes.

My smaller, Hutchinson Gulfstream is also Swedeform, but not as dramatically. The deck is about the same height, but the boat is slightly wider at the feet and I can wear a heavier shoe without problems. Some of the fish-form boats (widest point forward of center) have even more room up front without raising the deck or the hull's windage. Here again, there is almost no way to tell what suits you without trying it out before building or buying.

It can be a real pain sometimes to try to locate a boat that you can test paddle, or even just sit in, but it's usually well worth the trouble if it's in any way possible. Most of the manufacturers will help if asked by trying to find somebody in your area who has built or bought the model you're interested in testing and either give you their number or contact them directly to see if they will help you. I've had two or three calls from Mariner over the past couple years where somebody as far as two or three hours away wanted to try the model I own and I had the closest one. I don't mind helping them out. They were good to me and I don't mind returning the favor.

[Ian McColgin]

I sympathise with not fitting. I've had my legs go to sleep due to a seat too small for my generous butt.

I'm lucky that my feet point easily (from diving, I guess) so even in Lacy my feet fit in the tight area. And, for my size, my feet are small. (I know what you big footed guys are thinking. Stop boasting about extraneous matters.)

[LeeG]

Ian, I mostly like to talk,,I teach basic sea kayaking during the summer and used to work for CLC for a short stretch after getting hooked on building s&g kayaks with a Patuxent 17 while living in the S.F. Bay 8yrs ago. You're right with the A/B test that the same kayak will be easier to turn when leaned but the Chesapeakes ease of turning occurs within about 20degrees on either side,,after that there really isn't a big change in that ease of turning. I haven't paddled a huge number of kayaks but I haven't found one that does that after working in two kayak stores and owning about a dozen plastic/composite kayaks and making 4 different s&g designs. There's a range of hull shapes that work well in four panels, s&g, just like there's a range of angles/dimensions that work for roadbikes. I only got exposed to British boats since moving out east 7yrs ago. There are a lot of good designs out there,and some that are simply made up.