PDA

View Full Version : More Americas cup stuff. Quarter final time.



John B
11-13-2002, 09:17 PM
I’ve been wondering about those ugly knuckle bows we first saw on the NZ boats a few years ago. I assumed that they were tailored to our particular chop and dampened the pitching moment somewhat but a friend tells me it’s much simpler than that. Yup,,. Rating.( the rot sets in) Apparently this class measures it’s waterline 200mm or so up from the actual waterline. If you snub the bow you shorten the measured WL and get something else in return. Ballast or sail area I assume. I’d be interested to hear from someone who knows, if this is true.

Some dramatic and aggressive sailing yesterday. Probably the big one being the Prada Alinghi match up with a communication error between bow and stern on Prada causing them to slap Alinghi across the backside. Great shots leading up to it with Prada burying her bow in Alinghi’s quarter wave. Fillets of water hosing up over the bow and water which looked up to the deck at times. Alinghi won today too.

Oracle beat One world yesterday and today. Todays race featured on TV. Get this. Oracle leading to the last mark and on the bear away set ,a muck up with the brace meant the spinnaker pole broke against the forestay. They held on though.
I’m on record ain’t I. I like Oracle. She’s looking dangerous.

Stars showing GBR the way today after yesterdays loss. SWE beat Le Defi both days and looking dominant.

imported_Conrad
11-13-2002, 11:52 PM
One world got off to a great start, but seems to have lost the touch, too bad. If the cup came to Seattle, they'd have to start over in optimizing the boats- light winds and flat water are the rule most of the year. But Fall brings a bit more of a mix.

What really surprises is how close all the boats are- doesn't seem like any major differences in speed, just a little mistake here or there and the winner is determined!

Here's a good site for tracking results: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/americascup/acresultsdisplay.cfm?storyID=383611&thesection=sport&thesubsection=americascup&thesecondsubsection=result

[ 11-14-2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

martin schulz
11-14-2002, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by John B:
Yup,,. Rating.( the rot sets in) Apparently this class measures it's waterline 200mm or so up from the actual waterline. If you snub the bow you shorten the measured WL and get something else in return. Ballast or sail area I assume. I'd be interested to hear from someone who knows, if this is true.I am definetely not an expert on this. But I read an small essay on the History of the 12m class in a publication of the "FKY" (which organizes most of the classic yacht races in Germany). The formula was to compicated for me to grasp. I will post it when I find it.
What is quite clear is that that 12m formula is something from a different age. They did modify it of course, but the major parts of the formula still apply. And those boats are in fact not reasonable seaworthy constructions. They still have those antiquated overhangs and not enough freeboard - but then they are Formular 1-racing and you don't get to see those cars on the road either.

John B
11-14-2002, 02:36 PM
They dropped the 12's quite some years ago Martin.
Overhangs unseaworthy? The jury is out on that. I notice the evolvement back to a full counter in some of this current class with interest. As far as seaworthy is concerned ,American Eagle ( the 12 m) was seaworthy and did some remarkable passages. Stormy weather, Dorade, they had overhangs.

john welsford
11-15-2002, 12:52 AM
Absolutely right John, the rule giveth and the rule taketh away. The idea is to choose the set of compromises that suit the expected conditions, these things are incredibly specific to the race venue hence all the weather and wave data that the challengers collect for the years before the finalisation of the design.
As to seaworthiness have you noticed old NZL 20 out playing ocean racers in the coastal classic? Went pretty well too I understand.
A lot of people wonder about the very blunt entry on the bows of these things, it is to lessen the entry angle from there back . The blunt bow angle presented at a very shallow angle gives less overall resistance even if the bow wave up at the surface looks messy, is the total wavemaking that is the target.
I had a very interesting hour in the shed at Mascalzone Latino base just before the end of round one, so near and yet so far, interesting stuff even if they were the first to be knocked out. JohnW

PS, I'm glued to the telly every afternoon that I can make an excuse to be there, and will soon be taking Huffboat up to spend a day rowing around the bases taking photos and drawing sketches of the interesting bits.
J


Originally posted by John B:
I’ve been wondering about those ugly knuckle bows we first saw on the NZ boats a few years ago. I assumed that they were tailored to our particular chop and dampened the pitching moment somewhat but a friend tells me it’s much simpler than that. Yup,,. Rating.( the rot sets in) Apparently this class measures it’s waterline 200mm or so up from the actual waterline. If you snub the bow you shorten the measured WL and get something else in return. Ballast or sail area I assume. I’d be interested to hear from someone who knows, if this is true.

Some dramatic and aggressive sailing yesterday. Probably the big one being the Prada Alinghi match up with a communication error between bow and stern on Prada causing them to slap Alinghi across the backside. Great shots leading up to it with Prada burying her bow in Alinghi’s quarter wave. Fillets of water hosing up over the bow and water which looked up to the deck at times. Alinghi won today too.

Oracle beat One world yesterday and today. Todays race featured on TV. Get this. Oracle leading to the last mark and on the bear away set ,a muck up with the brace meant the spinnaker pole broke against the forestay. They held on though.
I’m on record ain’t I. I like Oracle. She’s looking dangerous.

Stars showing GBR the way today after yesterdays loss. SWE beat Le Defi both days and looking dominant.

martin schulz
11-15-2002, 05:04 AM
Ok, so the last 12mR Americas Cupper was the Stars&Stripes 1987?

Did the IACC reglement change much? Above water the Boats still look like modified 12mR Yachts.

Norske3
11-15-2002, 06:48 AM
ORACLE is going to win all the way and bring home the cup to the good old US of A!....but don't quote me on that.. :D

John B
11-15-2002, 01:56 PM
Now Norske, you know I have a soft spot for Oracle, but win the cup? tut tut.

Martin. I'm not sure of all the current class specifics but in general terms and as I understand it, people ... sailors, just got sick of the way the 12's looked and went after a few decades of evolution. They'd got too predictable, too ugly and too expensive because innovation within that rule was about finished. Spend all that money and do 9.2 kts on the wind, 9.2 kts reaching and unless you caught a wave ... 9.2 kts downwind.

This new class came out as sleek , fair, undistorted hulls with big rigs and superior speed. When I say "the rot sets in " I just mean that we are seeing distortions appear now to maximise something from the rule. They are still beautiful boats. Further to what John W said, the big thing I notice this year is
the full entry
the narrowness of all the boats
the evolution back to full deck length counter sterns.

It's not quite cods head mackeral tail stuff but it's certainly heading that way relatively.

John. Yes .. we came up the harbour in 40 kts coming back from the coastal classic. Only other boat with main and jib was one of the charter am cup boats.

Wild Wassa
11-15-2002, 09:04 PM
La Dephi Areva, smile.gif . At the death.

[ 11-15-2002, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John E Hardiman
11-15-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by martin schulz:
Ok, so the last 12mR Americas Cupper was the Stars&Stripes 1987?

Did the IACC reglement change much? Above water the Boats still look like modified 12mR Yachts.Martin, the boats are very different underwater. It's like comparing a 1920's full keel "knockabout" to a modern ULDB (but not a Farr ;) ). Very similar in overall above water shape and rig, but very different underwater and very different in length to displacement and sail area to displacement ratios.

The 12M's, or more correctly the 12M class of the International Rule, were based upon best practice wooden boats of the 30's. When aluminum and composite started to be used they still were required to conform to the length/displacement and sail area/displacement ratios of the older boats. IACC boats were designed to take advantage of modern composites. A lot less hull in the water but the same freeboard, which is basically independent of displacement for modern hulls anyway, and a lot more sail area for the displacement than the old 12M's. Not to say the old 12M's didn't have their advantages, like pointing high and fast, but overall slower around the course.

John B
11-18-2002, 01:51 PM
It's a shame to see LeDefi and GBR go. They lost their last races so it's exit from the comp for them now.
Much talk about handling problems on GBR.GBR being described as one of the most popular teams in the village. much talk about Le defi being fast but not quite good enough otherwise..
Some comment being made about Alinghi showing the first signs of not being invincible. One world getting soundly whupped by the Oracle.( I like that boat) Apparently Dickson doesn't helm it. he's skipper . Something changed in a big way anyway.
SWE... watch them. Their boat stands out now as being a lot different looking to me.
Stars... what an elegant boat this new one is. You can never not count Dennis out and they have really been going this last round.

News on the way to work is that there is to be a " bombshell" announcement by LV this afternoon.

I wonder... one of the top syndicates pulling out?

[ 11-18-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

Hans Friedel
11-18-2002, 04:29 PM
Yepp Orm is a fast and the crew is great.

But the other teams are not so bad either ;)

Oracle is a favorite (Farr)

But it is realy fun that The Scandinavians are still in the game and doing well

Hans

rodcross
11-18-2002, 05:12 PM
I can't help it! As much as I've tried to shake it off, I'm still rooting for Dennis. Every time the boat lost I was convinced he was sandbagging the kiwi defenders. I still believe he has a plan to eke-out a win and give them a false sense of security.

Anyway, the Cup belongs in Newport, guarded by the oligarchy of the U.S. What would some dot.com gazzillionaire do with the Cup, anyway? Fill it with champagne? Hang it over his bed while he /////////s? a Brittany look-alike? Ugh!

So what if the Cup was held by a some fairly unsavory, and drunk, characters like Ficker and Turner. The oligarchy controlled. The Cup had class.

Kiwi defectors, lawsuits, enough money spent to feed Uganda for 20 years...

The Cup is losing it's class. I, for one, mourne it's passing.

I hope the Cup gets back to Ida Lewis before it is too late.

John B
11-18-2002, 06:06 PM
LOL. I agree. Apart from the back to NYYC that is.
You probably realise , but we here have a love hate relationship with Dennis C as a nation because of the shenanagins off Perth in the 80's. You know. the famous Farr and Dickson face off with Dennis C and some unpleasant allegations being made in the heat of etc.
A broadcaster here made his reputation by ambushing Connors on prime TV where he then walked out ( justifiably so)

So we are supposed to hate Dennis but it's been so long that we've forgotten what it was.. Love or Hate? Now which was that?
So we just love to see him instead.

He's MR Americas Cup.

The last big Classics regatta we had here in between the LV and Cup 2000 he got on our stern in the big Power cat tender and sat there with us for about 5 minutes looking at what we were doing.

I've had the same sensation when an Orca came up and eyeballed us once. " Now what will I do with him, let him go or munch him?" LOL.