New Project-refastening

[JerseyGarvey]

I just purchased an old 16' cedar garvey which I intend to restore. The boat was originally fastened with galvanized nails, and needs refastening. Any advice on how to go about it? Specifically screws or nails and whether or not I should remove the old nails, and how many new fastenings to use.

Here's a little more info:
The boat has a cross planked bottom across about a 6 foot beam. There are two longitudinal frames, each running about 6 inches outboard of centerline and an incontinuous chine on each side. The bottom doesn't appear to have been caulked? THe wood is free of rot, but the fateners are visibly wasted.
I'd appreciate any advice or resources others can recommend. I have digital pictures, but can't figure out how to post.
JK

[ssor]

A voice from the past:

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No more excuses:

Instructions for posting pictures

Photo to be posted must be on the web and in a site that allows cross posting. Many Forum users use www.imagestation.com (http://www.imagestation.com) . This is a free site which seems to have unlimited storage, large picture size, and unlimited albums.

Upload your pictures to ImageStation and create your albums or leave the pics in the in box as you wish.
Pictures in ImageStation are displayed in three sizes: thumbnail, display and original. Left click on the thumbnail brings up the display photo, about 640 bits X 400 or so. A left click on the display photo brings up the photo in the original size you uploaded. Forget this one, except in rare cases which I cannot explain it cannot be cross linked. So....

Left click on the thumbnail to show the display version.

Right click on this picture.

Left click "Properties".

Highlight the Address [URL] and copy it (Ctrl/C).

Now go to The Forum and prepare your new message.
Write what you want as a preamble to your picture, then:

Below the message area is a button, "IMAGE". Left click it.

Paste the URL you copied above into the block displayed.
Note that the block contains http already highlighted. Just paste without doing any thing else so you don't get http twice.

Add what ever additional text you wish to add after the URL of the picture is displayed.

Click on the "Preview Post" button to confirm that what you want us to see will appear, then close the window.

Click the "Add Reply" button and standby for responses.
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Posts: 10013 | From: Omaha, Nebraska, USA, Terra , Sol, Milky Way.... | IP: Logged

Copied and pasted from Norm Messengers post 4/30/05

[JerseyGarvey]

SSOR: Thanks for the advice on posting pictures, If i did it right, you should be seeing the boat rigt now.

http://www.winkflash.com/photo/imagew2.aspx?i=29863883&c=927867&z=0&v=8a8c91d18da292f890eb7863fcb2938b34dfe67905404 aeebce793e9ece1036ade3ffa0be0549153

Mike: I'm told she was built in Waretown NJ and was used by a commercial crabber. Planks are about 6" (I have to measure.) One plank was knocked out in the yard, and the fasteners are visibly "necked" down.

[JerseyGarvey]

OK, I'm screwing this up,

This adress will take you to a picture, if you copy the entire string into your browser bar.

http://www.winkflash.com/photo/imagew2.aspx?i=29863883&c=927867&z=0&v=8a8c91d18da292f890eb7863fcb2938b34dfe67905404aee bc e793e9ece1036ade3ffa0be0549153

Meanwhile, I'll try to get this right.
JK

[Paul Scheuer]

Well. You're part way there. You've got a site that allows linking. Make sure that you pick the URL from an image displayed on your screen. (right click, highlight, copy). When you copy it and paste it into the image brackets, (edit if necessary), try to "preview" to see if you've got it.

Edit - The URL needs to end in ".jpg". I tried to fix it but there's something else missing.

http://www.winkflash.com/images/cover/left1.jpg

[ 09-25-2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Paul Scheuer ]

[JerseyGarvey]

I gave up on my wife's suggestion and went to imagestation. Thanks for sticking with me . . .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid188/pfcf2923fe5ef94fdcfbbfe89fc4aabcc/f227868b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid188/p90b117968ff7eca499af87dd4506ed08/f2278662.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid188/pa2e9a2927a128edf7cb28a6fbc7b5c12/f227861b.jpg

[nedL]

Great looking garvey, true south jersey boat. It would be nice to get those old nails out, but I suspect you won't be able to without really messing up the plank ends. Depending on what your thoughts & intentions are for her you could go with anything from renailing with hot dipped galvanized nails, screwing with hot dipped galvanized screws, renailing with bronze ring shank (anchorfast) nails, or screwing with bronze screws. This would be in order of material cost. If the planking & chines are in structurally good shape the galvanized nail option will give at least 5-10 years service & the bronze screws will outlast us. It all depends on your budget & how long you expect to own the boat. There isn't much you can do with the rust streaking other than to live with it. You are correct about the lack of caulking, she would have been planked tight & will not need caulking as long as she doesn't dry out excessively to many times. Do you know what she is planked with? Is she Jersey cedar? Lots of fun those garveys. Have you ever seen the racing garveys? Enjoy.

[ 09-26-2005, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[Thad Van Gilder]

OKay, having both built and fixed garveys, here's some stuff to keep in mind.

They were built rough, many of the ones I've seen were nailed together with galv. nails. some with bronze or stainless ringnails. either are very tough to get out.

The galv. nails go into the side planking or the chine log and into the keelsons. Often the nails rust and split the side planking.

There isn't suppossed to be any caulking between the bottom planks, and if you caulk her and through her in the water, the cedar will take up, and crush somewhat, so the next time she goes in, she will leak more, as the cedar won't take up as well once it's been crushed.

As far as refastening goes, I always use bronze ring nails on those boats. If you replank the bottom (which is always a good idea on garveys) only take a few planks out at a time, as it's easy to twist her up with the bottom off. That's a really quick job even for a novice, as the planks are parallel sided, and aren't beveled.

Let me know if I can help. my boat shop is down in Tuckahoe, and I can be found on my cutter in Somer's Point on weekends year round.

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

Oh yeah, they were usually framed in cedar.
just thought I'd throw that in.

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

Mike,
you raise a good point.
One could remove the bottom at one go, placing a series of moulds inside beforehand. This would not be hard, as the boat has no complex curves.

Personally, If the chine log needed attention, I would be tempted to replace it before addressing the bottom, while the boat was still right side up. Since the chine log in the bow is pieced up (in all the garveys I have seen) and of a single piece where there is little bend (at the bottom), It would seem easiest to address the chine log if needed before the bottom is addressed.

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

well, I can only speak from experience with these guys, that the angle of the side and the bottom tends to be constant. The pics show this garvey to be typical.

-Thad

[JerseyGarvey]

Mike, Thad,

Thanks for the advice. I've worked with wooden boats for years (a few at Yank's in tuckahoe), but this is my first rebuild and your advice is priceless. Just a few clarifications (don't hesitate to set me straight if I'm off base.)

I assume by re-planking the bottom, you mean new lumber. Can I reuse any of the existing planking by trimming the ends and using the plank further forward at a narrower station? Or did you just mean removing the fasteners and replacing with a larger (diameter) screw?

Mike mentioned sistering the chine and nailing/screwing the existing planking alternating between the new chine and the old. That sounded like a good idea, and also seemed to offer more support for floors. But why would I have to sister the ribs? This seems like the most appealing option because materials are only a couple lengths of cedar and bronze ring nails?

Should I be thinking about the "F word" (fiberglass)? instead of refastening?

I want this indigenous boat to live another 50 years on Barnegat Bay crabbing and fishing and towing a sneakbox to the races . . .

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by JerseyGarvey:
Mike, Thad,

Can I reuse any of the existing planking by trimming the ends and using the plank further forward at a narrower station? Or did you just mean removing the fasteners and replacing with a larger (diameter) screw?

Mike mentioned sistering the chine and nailing/screwing the existing planking alternating between the new chine and the old. That sounded like a good idea, and also seemed to offer more support for floors. But why would I have to sister the ribs? This seems like the most appealing option because materials are only a couple lengths of cedar and bronze ring nails?

I can't add much to all this good advice, but my first boatyard job was for my uncle in New Gretna building larger versions of yours for commercial watermen, with inboards, pilot houses and sometimes galleys.

You don't mention planking thickness, but as I remember these planks being workboat thick, your chines and ribs looks a little light for the boat, so adding to the chine sounds like a good idea, even without nail sickness. I can't tell if the ribs need anything from here, but if I sistered the chine, I'd probably tie them to the inner chine with mini knees running up the ribs about 6".

My uncle usually built them with bronze screws, and that's what I'd use after I got the nails out. Find a wholesale jobber and establish an account and the 6-12 bucks/100 I pay is well worth it when I consider that both me and my kids after me can easily repair that hull again some day without digging out nails.

Yes, you can reuse planking if still good by trimming the ends and making new planks only for the wide spots.

And we planed in caulking seams and caulked these boats with cotton just like the carvel sneakboxes he built with the leftover stock at the end of the season. The bow planking above the water likes to dry out and leak when pounding in a seaway...and if this is gonna be a trailer boat in and out of the water, by all means caulk those planks. Not that much trouble, given the benefits.

[ 09-26-2005, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Thad Van Gilder]

Bob,
I have used a spline in the bottom planking above the waterline at the bow to keep them tight.Kind of like tongue and groove, but its groove and groove.

Mike, your right.
guess I didn't look closely at that pic.

I'm curious why it would have been built that way...

JerseyGarvey,
Cedar is running about $1.20 a board foot at Schairer Bros in Egg Harbor City. To my eye, it seems easier to hang a new bottom on her.

If you want to reuse the bottom planking in a narrower spot, I don't see a problem.

-Thad

[ 09-26-2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Thad Van Gilder ]

[Bob Smalser]

Many of those older, crossplank bottoms were driven fits to overcome not having perfect joints.....a tapered, overlong plank was driven into gaps in the planked boat every 4 feet or so along the bottom to tighten the planking without caulking. Boards could be used as they came from the sawmill with minimum touchup with a hand jointer.

Works great using either nails or screws on 14' rowboats. Use nails on a larger powerboat and that considerable fastener strain every 4' combined with that flat bottom pounding in the chop causes more problems, sooner than I'd care to mess with...all to save less than 3 days additional work up front. Caulking spreads those forces out more evenly.

[ 09-26-2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Thad Van Gilder]

The garveys I built had triangular frames, about 1 inch thick, going from the the chine to the deck. The bottom of the triangle was as thick as the chine, and the top was as wide as the deck.

I have worked on boats framed like that and boats framed with 1 by 4's every two feet or so on the flat. I have seen garvey's with those little frames, but I dunno who made them.

so, bob, you have any details of your uncle's sneakboxes? I'm gearing up to build three this winter, and the set of lines I am building off of specifies either rivets of screws from the frames into the planks.
I'm fastenated by the idea of screws from the frames to the planks, cause I never saw it done before. The lines came from Tuckerton Seaport, a fairly reputable place, but it's still a new one on me. The planks are thick, by the way. 5/8" on a 12 footer.

-Thad

[JerseyGarvey]

Are there any good books or references on garveys I should get a hold of?

Thad, are they sailing sneekboxes or hunting boats?

Beaton's boat Yard and Johnson Bros up my way were both known for building the sailing variety.

Anyone heard of Thomas Firth Jones as a garvey builder?

[Thad Van Gilder]

Tom Jones, yeah, his shop is right down the street from mine. He's is big on the multihull thing, but I understand he occassional makes a garvey.I think there where lines for one in one of his books. He's a nice guy and his wife's real nice, too. A retired elementary school teacher.

The sneak boxes I plan to throw together this winter are of the sailing/ rowing variety, althought they would probably do ok with a tiny 2.2 horse outboard.

I have a great book on sneak boxes from Tuckerton Seaport, but I haven't found any good resources on garvey's. I just ask the old guys at the bar how stuff used to be done, and they tell me. There may be some good stuff in a book that Rutgers put out a while ago, "Seabright skiffs and other jersey shore craft", but I don't own the book, so I can't readily check for you.
-Thad

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Thad Van Gilder:

so, bob, you have any details of your uncle's sneakboxes? I'm gearing up to build three this winter, and the set of lines I am building off of specifies either rivets of screws from the frames into the planks.

I'm fastenated by the idea of screws from the frames to the planks, cause I never saw it done before. The lines came from Tuckerton Seaport, a fairly reputable place, but it's still a new one on me. The planks are thick, by the way. 5/8" on a 12 footer.

-Thad'Fraid he didn't use plans, we took that workaday stuff for granted back then and didn't take any pics, and I wuz back in school 30 miles away by the time he got to that point in his building season.

If you look at Gardner's Volume 1, his sneakboxes were built like that only carvel ala Gardner's reference to W.P Stephens, who originally described their construction.

12'X 4' beam, and strictly hunting boats for rowing and sculling....Stephens talks to sawn cedar frames sided 1 1/8 and molded 1 1/16 on 10" centers...1" square harping pieces and deck beams...1/2" cedar decking and ceiling and 5/8" planking.

Boat built rightside up....keel fastened temporarily to a strongback and transom, two molds and both harpings assembled in place using ribbands....frames bent in. That's pretty thick and pretty short cedar to be bent in as frames, so I wouldn't take Stephen's word for it. All nails, too.

I could easily be wrong, but I don't remember either cedar frames or nails, I remember oak in lighter scantlings and the planks screwed in from outside, which would be a requirement screwing cedar to oak. Screwing cedar to cedar, I wouldn't think it'd matter as much which direction the screws ran and you could fasten from the inside and perhaps avoid all that plugging. But 5/8" planking doesn't provide much thread depth and I'd have to think about it.

There's a classic sneakbox somewhere in my future, too.

[ 09-27-2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Mike Vogdes]

JerseyGarvey,

Nice old garvey you got there... Its nice to see its not glassed over, if you repair as noted above I'm sure you will get another fifty years of service out of her. Good luck..

What kind of power you planning?

[JerseyGarvey]

Mike Vogdes,

I think somewhere between 10 and 25 horse outboard. I think I'll start with a tiller extension to keepp things as simple as possible. Of course, 1st I've got to get her in the water.

[Mike Vogdes]

Tom Jones has a few books, one is "Low Resistance Boats" and it has a couple garvey plans in it, however they are plywood sheathed.

The Tuckerton Seaport Museum may have some info on your style garvey, allways a neat place to visit anyway.

Whats your leanth, beam and transom height?