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bamamick
12-21-2005, 03:20 PM
'sir' or 'lady'? Just reading up a bit on Emma Richards and I see that she received her MBE last year. Is she now to be called 'Lady Emma Richards'? How about Ellen? Is she 'Lady Ellen Macarthur'?

Mickey Lake

[ 12-21-2005, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: bamamick ]

Stiletto
12-21-2005, 05:13 PM
MBE doesnt have a special name. If being announced formally it would be 'Emma Richards MBE'.

Ellen would be referred to as Dame Ellen.

Wild Wassa
12-21-2005, 05:17 PM
If you want to show Dame Ellen more respect, call her Mate, Mate.

Warren.

Meerkat
12-21-2005, 05:31 PM
There was a hilarious bit on a britcom ("Yes Minister") about the "meaning" of various awards.

The only one I recall offhand was KCMG: "Kindly Call Me God." ;)

[ 12-21-2005, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-22-2005, 03:34 AM
That is about the "The Order of St Michael and St George" - awarded to high ranking civil servants.

CMG (Companion of ~) "Call me God"
KCMG (Knight or Dame Commander of ~) "Kindly Call me God"
GCMG (Knight or Dame Grand Cross of ~) "God Calls me God".

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-22-2005, 05:40 AM
OBE = Other Buggers' Efforts
MBE = My Bloody Effort

Emma Richards is Miss Emma Richards, MBE.

A man with a knighthood is Sir John Smith (followed by the appropriate postnomial letters), called to his face "Sir John". Sir John's wife is "Lady Smith".

A dame follows the same protocol - Dame Jane Smith (plus letters), called "Dame Jane". Ellen Macarthur is therefore Dame Ellen Macarthur, DBE.

"Lady Jane Smith" would imply she is the daughter of an Earl, Marquis or Duke, not the wife of a knight. However, Lord Smith's wife is also Lady Smith.

A female peer in her own right technically is Lady Smith, but this in practice is confusing as she may alternatively be the wife of a lord or knight - obviously historically female peers were rare (mainly Scottish) so in practice everyone would know who she was, anyway.

But in recent-ish practice they tend to use the full rank of the peerage - i.e. "Baroness Smith" - this generally applies to life peerages as they are the majority of female peers!

Husband of a Dame is Mr Smith, as is the husband of Baroness Smith. As is the same-sex civil partner as now allowed for under UK law (from yesterday).

All quite complex in practice and evolved over a millenium to clearly indicate degrees of rank, so if you understand it, it makes perfect sense. If not, it's a nightmare...

[ 12-22-2005, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

WindHawk
12-22-2005, 05:51 AM
Say, Dude, is there any beer left? :D

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-22-2005, 05:55 AM
Oh yeah - forgot to add: "If you even care..."

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-22-2005, 06:03 AM
Oh yeah - forgot to add: "If you even care..."

bamamick
12-22-2005, 07:17 AM
It is all very confusing to someone from the Colonies, but I thank you for the replies.

Mickey Lake

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-22-2005, 08:10 AM
About twenty five years ago I worked as a programmer for the "Civil Service Department" - rumoured to have been the model for "The Department of Administrative Affairs" in Yes Minister.

One of the (many) odd things we did was the care and feeding of "The List Of The Great And The Good".

Someone requested a routine to print names and addresses. Which sounds easy only if you haven't tried to do it.

Few people make it onto that list without at the very least a string of letters after their name, and often a complicated title.

The kit of parts looks like this:
Rt. Hon, Military Rank (Air Vice-Marshall or the like), Prof/Mr/Sir/Etc Name[-Name..] then the list of "Decorations" MRCVS, DFC, "and bar", FRS......

And yes - there is a precedence list......

The design review meetings went on for months.

The poor sod who actually had the code this routine used to joke that he lived in fear of an EARL being awarded the OBE - and thus becomming an EARLOBE.

Thorne
12-22-2005, 08:30 AM
Andrew -

Yes, we care! Thanks for the clarification - nicely put.

Are *all* French-derived titles like "Marquess" Anglicized in pronunciation, or just some? I kept saying "Marquee" for years until corrected repeatedly.

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-22-2005, 09:19 AM
All Anglicised these days - Marquis is also now the accepted spelling. Viscount has a silent "s" but is otherwise fully pronounced. We have Earls (from the Scandinavian/Germanic "Jarl" with "Count" only being retained for the feminine "Countess" - so it's the "Earl and Countess of Annandale")...

There are peers of England, Scotland, Ireland and Great Britain, depending on their date of creation - we also have peers by writ (the old Engish baronies called into existence by the holder being summonsed to parliament) and those created by letters patent (all the others).

Scotland's lowest grade of peerage is not a baron but a "Lord of Parliament" as there are also feudal baronies in Scotland.

We have baronets who are effectively hereditary knighthoods, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...one can go on ad infinitum...!

[ 12-22-2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

Sea Frog
12-22-2005, 01:58 PM
I wonder what that Esquire thing is about now?
Does is mean you're an overall nice guy, rather than e.g. a paedophile with terminal foot fungus or a Frenchman? Or is it the most democratic form of nobility, the final result of a Centuries long popular struggle? Or am I mistaking Esq. for Esquimau, which would imply a whole different set of qualifications?

Alan D. Hyde
12-22-2005, 02:21 PM
In parts of the U.S., particularly in New England, communications with a lawyer are frequently addressed to Joe or Jane Smith, Esquire.

This is a mere traditional courtesy.

I have never investigated its origins...

Alan

Wild Wassa
12-22-2005, 02:41 PM
God save the Queen. Although her Majesty seems to do OK with out the fairy stories.

Sir Elton and Mr John ... Sir Elton and Lady John. God save both Queens.

Warren.

Thorne
12-22-2005, 03:10 PM
My understanding is that in the USofA, Esq indicates a formal status of "Gentleman", ditto for Military Officers of a certain rank and above.

Thusly, "An Officer and a Gentleman"...

One of the more interesting US titles is President when applied to former officials -- there seems to be great variation in whether they are called "former pres", "ex-pres" or still "pres".

[ 12-22-2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

Meerkat
12-22-2005, 03:56 PM
I believe, in the UK system, an esquire is the title used for the oldest son of an aristocrat. Presumably, he will inherit the title.

If the Earl of Doon's family name is Smythe, his oldest son would be titled as "Mr. Smythe, Esquire".

I'm guessing it dates from the time when knights and lords had squires.

[ 12-22-2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Meerkat
12-22-2005, 03:57 PM
Congress decided, at least a dozen years back, that officers were no longer to be commissioned as "and gentlemen." No idea why - seemed (seems) kind of petty to me.

Alan D. Hyde
12-22-2005, 04:08 PM
One never uses Esquire and Mister simultaneously.

It is either "John Smith, Esquire" or "Mr John Smith."

Alan

Stiletto
12-22-2005, 04:51 PM
There is/was a protocol that members of the services were called Gentlemen if that service had royal in its title. At the time of this occuring the RNZAF was the only one.

A politician earned perpetual enmity from two out of three services by (correctly) referring to 'men of the army and navy, and gentlemen of the air force'.

Meerkat
12-22-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
One never uses Esquire and Mister simultaneously.

It is either "John Smith, Esquire" or "Mr John Smith."

AlanI wasn't speaking of form of address, only title.

yorgie
12-22-2005, 08:25 PM
Andrew,is there still an earl of Annandale?I had thought that the last of the line had died without issue in Italy around the time of Byron.I had wondered about making a claim for the title but there must be thousands who would be ahead of me. :D

Chris

Rick Tyler
12-23-2005, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Thorne:
One of the more interesting US titles is President when applied to former officials -- there seems to be great variation in whether they are called "former pres", "ex-pres" or still "pres".I believe that when you address them in person, you still call them "Mr. President." Or Mr. *^%@&@#, depending on your feelings.

Rick Tyler
12-23-2005, 02:58 AM
US Admiral Dan Gallery told this story in one of his non-fiction books about the War of the Atlantic.

Then-Captain Gallery was the commander of the US Naval Airstation in Iceland early in World War II. They were across an inlet from the British base, where several of the officers had alphabet soup after their names. Gallery, being both Irish and feeling left out, says that he started signing his name "Capt. Daniel Gallery, DDLM" on correspondence with his UKian counterparts.

Eventually, a British officer asked what DDLM meant. Gallery explained that DDLM is the equivalent of KCB (Knight Commander of the Bath). The English officer mulled this over and finally asked, "Yes, well, but what do the letters stand for?" Gallery replied, "Dan Dan the Lavatory Man," and ran back to his Jeep and got off the Brit base as soon as possible.

Gallery was the source and/or reteller of a lot of good sea stories.

[ 12-23-2005, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Rick Tyler ]

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-23-2005, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by yorgie:
Andrew,is there still an earl of Annandale?I had thought that the last of the line had died without issue in Italy around the time of Byron.I had wondered about making a claim for the title but there must be thousands who would be ahead of me. :D

ChrisYup., there is - it was called out of abeyance by the House of Lords in 1985. Curent holder is Patrick Hope Johnstone of That Ilk, Earl of Annandale and Hartfell. Reason I know is my mother's a Johnston clan chieftain and distant relative!

Regarding gentlemen and esquires:

Anyone without a coat of arms is a nobody - technically still a yeoman under English Law (serfs, tacksmen and bondsmen sort of no longer exist...).

If you are armigerous - i.e. possess a coat of arms - you are by definition a gentleman (from the French - gentilhomme -would have to check my medieval French spelling).

Esquires are the degree of gentility above gentlemen and below knighthood. Traditionally the eldest son of a knight and his successors are esquires, and anyone holding a military or naval commission, OR a university degree (from the days when there were few instututions and all graduates were worthy!) is an esquire.

In Scotland, all clan chiefs and chieftains are esquires as they are "before all the gentlemen of the kingdom". And you NEVER use "Mister" to a Scottish laird - call him by his territorial title or else! Johnston of Warriston is known politely as "Warriston". Interestingly as well, Scotland's clan system also recognises anyone of the clan as being a member of the honourable community, and therefore technically an aristocrat. I stress the technically here. One of the King James did say in response to a request to grant a title to a favourite: "I can make him a lord, but only God can make him a gentleman." Which shows that whilst there is a a degree or state of gentility which is as much a title as an earldom, it is also presumed that one will behave with the characteristics associated with the rank!

Regards

Andrew

(a.k.a. Sub-Lieutenant The Much Honoured Andrew Thomas-Johnston Esq., Younger of Killalee, B.A. (Hons), Grad. Dip Ed., M.B.A., R.N.R.. Which is a bit of a mouthful and completely affected so disregarded most of the time!).

[ 12-23-2005, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-23-2005, 05:22 AM
A peeress in her own right, married to a peer or a knight, is referred to as " the Lady xxx" as opposed to "Lady xxx" (wife of peer or knight".

Thought you would like to know that.

yorgie
12-23-2005, 11:14 AM
Andrew S/Y,Thank you for clarifying that for me.

My grandmother has a Johnston family tree showing our descent from the clan chiefs. You're much closer to the main line which we left at the time of the battle of Lockerbie.We remained on as reeves of Annan for several generations until 1800 when a daughter married into an unremarkable english family.

regards cousin

Chris

Sea Frog
12-23-2005, 01:01 PM
Thanks for your replies, Messeigneurs .
Thought it had definitely gone out of fashion by now.

Sea Frog, Esq.

Thorne
12-23-2005, 02:17 PM
Andrew -

Oooooh - getting interesting! Not very boat-related, but interesting nonetheless.

So, how about purchased titles? The former US millionaire that I worked for in the UK purchased a title in Scootlund (as you do), and officially (on paper) refers to himself as "Lord Lucies". He now runs Lucies Farm as a "doggy hotel" near Malvern.
http://www.dog-hotel.co.uk/

Does this work "officially" for the heralds, or is it merely a fun fiction like the business (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/halloffame/arts/richard_booth.shtml) in Hay on Wye?

The best part of it was that I could parody Baldrick in _Black Adder_ and say to him...

"Me Lord, I have a Cunning Plan."

;0 )

[ 12-23-2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

Meerkat
12-24-2005, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by Thorne:

"Me Lord, I have a Cunning Plan."

;0 )I trust this will not be mistaken for the punning clan! "My lord, I have a Punning Clan!" ;) :D

Presuming Ed
12-24-2005, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Thorne:
So, how about purchased titles? The former US millionaire that I worked for in the UK purchased a title in Scootlund (as you do), and officially (on paper) refers to himself as "Lord Lucies". He now runs Lucies Farm as a "doggy hotel" near Malvern.My knowledge of all of this stuff is not extensive, but anyway...

The most commonly purchased titles are "Lords of the Manor", which is a completely different thing from being a lord. Some details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_manor
Bit of a silly thing to do, IMHO - AIUI you can't call yourself Lord Psmith, you have to call yourself John Psmith, Lord of the Manor of Upper Puddlebury upon Wandle (or whatever it is that you've bought). And if you did that, most people in England would probably think that you're a bit of a fool, and easily parted from your money, as the only people who would style themselves thus are people who have purchased a title, and threfore (in the convoluted ways of the English class system), have completely shot themselves in the foot and would be ignored by real lords and ladies as nothing better than a social climber.

This site looks interesting: http://www.faketitles.com/

This is not to say that you can't acquire a real title by spending money, but it's a dicey process - easier when Lloyd George was prime minister, when you could just give him enough money and he would have you made a baronet. Nowadays, I guess that it would involve something like -a) donating considerable sums of money to the governing political party (important that you start giving them money before they're in power, rather than jumping on the bandwagon), and b) at the same time giving a lot of money to a suitably high-profile charity (prefrably one with ties to royalty). Not to say that this route is guaranteed - if you make it too obvious that this is something you want, and you're really fishing for a knighhood, then like many things in England, you won't be asked.

Scotland's different, though. Easiest thing to buy is a Lairdship, which comes with ownership of land - any amount of land, even a few square feet, and oddly enough, their seem to be companies out there prepared to sell you a couple of square feet of the highlands for just that purpose. Seems a bit of a rediculous thing to do to me.

[ 12-24-2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Presuming Ed ]

Sea Frog
12-24-2005, 08:15 PM
Buying land to reach higher status would make little sense to a noble mariner's soul in need of extra respectability, which by the way can be found in a more maritime and cheap fashion right
there. (http://www.expertshopper.com/product.asp?pid=2091)

Wild Wassa
12-25-2005, 01:42 PM
"Fake titles" and "buying land to reach higher status."

Never! Definitely not! In our classless society Downunder I repeat, never!

'Yeoman' Warren Hudson. This is just not my 'honoury title' (and I'm definitely not a 'Gentleman of the Bed Chamber') but my title. I'm one notch above a common labourer and I own land, 'Yeoman' recognises my status ... as I'm not a Gentleman (yet), I'm working towards that.

After I die and in my will it is writen, "I, Yeoman Warren Hudson, leave the princely sum of one guinea to the town's 'Ringers and Singers' for them to be at my funeral (and strut their stuff)" ... now that is posh and worthy of any 'Gentleman'.

God save the Queen, again. This year Her Majesty was bonza and ace for wagging her chin at her subjects again over Chrissy (and her funny voice is getting even more funny) ... I like that but Her Majesty would benefit from having the pretentious British upper-class 'lispth' ... as we Arcadians, weally are her loyal thub'jecths and still like that touch of class.

'Gentlemen of the Bed Chamber', for a univeral touch of class, please repeat after me, "The roin in Spoin runs moinly down the droin and a Dingo killed moi boi-boi". Classy hey? ... and worthy of Empire and all 'Gentleman'.

One doesn't need to just know about titles and status in the Empire (especially here in Acadia), a person of a particular class (but rank will do), has the right to use them both ... and display them wisely.

Warren.

ps, Damnation, I showed my post to my wife and she said that Hudson has coat of arms, I remember now. It has three standing lions and three savage razor backs on the shield and above the shield is a lion wearing a crown. Damn it, I am a Gentleman ... and I have a fridge magnet to prove it.

[ 12-26-2005, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-28-2005, 04:11 AM
Bit of a silly thing to do...[a]nd if you did that, most people in England would probably think that you're a bit of a fool, and easily parted from your money...Seems a bit of a rediculous thing to do to me.Yup. Fools and money and all that! Much better to put any spare few grand into a wooden boat in my 'umble opinion. Now THAT's class!

smile.gif

Andrew

[ 12-28-2005, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

shamus
12-28-2005, 04:33 AM
And I bet captain Daniel Gallery DDLM went to his grave (or will go) without ever sensing the irony of that story!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-28-2005, 04:59 AM
I fear I may have to differ slightly from Presuming Ed when he writes:

This is not to say that you can't acquire a real title by spending money, but it's a dicey process - easier when Lloyd George was prime minister, when you could just give him enough money and he would have you made a baronet. Nowadays, I guess that it would involve something like -a) donating considerable sums of money to the governing political party (important that you start giving them money before they're in power, rather than jumping on the bandwagon), and b) at the same time giving a lot of money to a suitably high-profile charity (prefrably one with ties to royalty). Not to say that this route is guaranteed - if you make it too obvious that this is something you want, and you're really fishing for a knighhood, then like many things in England, you won't be asked.

I am reliably informed that the process has become easieer once again under Blair. The donations may be made at any time; it is no longer necessary to have donated before the Labour Party came to power, and the charity and Royal connections may now be omitted.

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
12-28-2005, 05:45 AM
Hee hee! True enough...at least one of my "illustrious" ancestors was up front enough just to buy openly his (now extinct) baronetcy for honest Scots pounds...

Took a couple of hundred years for the titles to be seen even then as more than noveau riche.

As for some of today's life peers, well the less said the better...and not just the Labour ones! A few dodgy Tory life peers in there as well...

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-28-2005, 06:09 AM
Indeed so. Lord Archer, Lord Black..one could go on...

formerlyknownasprince
12-30-2005, 05:43 PM
Andrew - wherefore did thoust acquire the MBA? I did one in Auckland whilst exiled there by my company back in the mid 80's.

I received a phone call from ex-Prime Minister Gough Whitlam once - he rang to tell me of my sins in addressing him in a fax to him as "the Right Honourable Gough Whitlam". He is the Honourable Gough Whitlam. He thought it worthwhile to spend me 20 minutes educating me as to why he refused the honorific "Right"....

Ian

Tom Robb
12-31-2005, 07:31 PM
Thank God may grandparents had the good sense to pack up and leave.
Do these people have nothing useful with which to occupy themselves?

formerlyknownasprince
12-31-2005, 08:14 PM
You mean like building SUVs?

Meerkat
12-31-2005, 08:43 PM
Tom "What's New Pussycat" Jones just got knighted. Hopefully, once a knight's enough! ;)

[ 12-31-2005, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

Tim Mooney
12-31-2005, 09:17 PM
Whether anyone has a knighthood or any title, when they are in the US they are either Mr., Ms., Mrs., or Miss. The Constitution prohibits royalty so it seems to me that these lord and lady titles are null and void when their owner steps into this country. Everything else is just sucking up. And good for us; you may be sir so and so but you are still a butt ugly soul if you are not a decent person and that's about all that is real. Too bad we can't seem to get over our religious silliness. The abolishment of titled castes doesn't seem to have done us much good.

TM

formerlyknownasprince
01-02-2006, 02:51 AM
The abolishment of titled castes doesn't seem to have done us much good.
Got any Cardinals, Admirals, Generals, Senators, Congressmen, etc over there? All of the above seem to think they are titled castes don't they?

We've abolished it here too BTW - and a good thing that was. Now - how to prevent Bonnie Prince Charlie from ever being Queen of Australia?

Ian

anthony mercer
01-02-2006, 02:40 PM
OK, enough is enough........let's talk about the laws of cricket!!

Tom Robb
01-02-2006, 03:27 PM
igatenby,
No, obviously not like building SUVs but jockying for position nearest the head of the table is not only useless but one of the less attractive traits we've inherited from our primate forbearers :rolleyes:

formerlyknownasprince
01-03-2006, 03:03 AM
We will always jockey for position at the table. There will always be alpha males and females - and lots of sycophants. I have absolutely no problem with losing the hereditary basis for that jockeying.

Wealth is normally dissipated after three or so generations - and as one wealthy individual I knew years back said "if they took it all off us and redistributed it equally - it';d take about two years to get it back"

Ian

Andrew Craig-Bennett
01-03-2006, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by anthony mercer:
OK, enough is enough........let's talk about the laws of cricket!!Does this help? (http://www.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/NATIONAL/ICC_MEMBERS/USA/EXPLAIN.html)

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
01-03-2006, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by Tim Mooney:
Whether anyone has a knighthood or any title, when they are in the US they are either Mr., Ms., Mrs., or Miss. The Constitution prohibits royalty so it seems to me that these lord and lady titles are null and void when their owner steps into this country. TMActually, I believe your constituion actually prohibits US CITIZENS from accepting honours. Doesn't stop others coming into the US and by courtesy being called by their titles. Doesn't mean you have to though!

smile.gif

anthony mercer
01-03-2006, 02:13 PM
Thanks Mirelle, knew I could rely on you. Next subject - knives and forks?

Thorne
01-03-2006, 04:32 PM
Rules of Cricket -- you DID ask for it!

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.

Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.

When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

Bob Smalser
01-03-2006, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Thorne:


... and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!Sometimes 3 days after the game began.

And they say baseball is a game for the patient. ;)

Andrew S/Y Rocquette
01-04-2006, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
Sometimes 3 days after the game began.

And they say baseball is a game for the patient. ;) Sometimes even five, for a test match!

Great game. Even if the Poms occasionally do beat us...

[ 01-04-2006, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

anthony mercer
01-04-2006, 02:50 PM
I wonder, would the same apply when President Bush enters the UK? Do we just call him 'Mr Bush'? as the UK does not have a political title of 'President'.

Or would the Brits just be too polite to register the anomaly?

Tom Robb
01-04-2006, 03:59 PM
Hell, we call him Mr. Bush here (among other things :D ) about as often as Mr. President.

John E Hardiman
01-04-2006, 05:14 PM
When HM the Queen came to Greenock for the fleet review in '66 there was a chance the she would come to the school. All us "yanks" (all 3 of us) were carefully coached by our USN parents on how we were to act if confronted with the problem.

Stand when everyone else does. Do not sing. (Both things we normaly did and didn't do every morning anyway). Do not bow or curtsy if presented. Doff your cap as with any lady (a more gentile time). Take her hand if she offers it. Address her as "Ma'am" if she speaks to you. Never forget that you are an american and not her subject, but also remember that you are a guest in her country.

That's why I cringed so when Carter when down for the Pope. Not even Kennedy did that in public.