Irish Hooker boats - any info out there?

[seb]

I am just reading Douglas Whynott's "A Unit of Water, a Unit of Time", and, in recording the life story of one of the crew at the yard, he is talking about an Irish type of traditional boat called an "Irish Hooker". The guy (sorry, can't remember the name - maybe at third or fourth reading will do better :)) has repaired one of these traditional boats in Ireland, and shipped it over to Canada, from where it was sailed back to Maine.

I've tried searching on the Internet, and only one passing reference came up. I've searched these forums, and no reference at all. I am quite into old or traditional wooden sailing boat designs, specially work boats. Any of you guys has more information on this type of boat? Some plans, photos, stories?

I wasn't sure if the best forum to post this would be this one, or the design one. Many thanks for all replies.

[ 04-02-2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: seb ]

[Matt J.]

Seb,
In the UK, and you're unfamiliar with the Irish Hookers? I've got some pictures (only a few), I could email you from our trip to Ireland last summer. Again, they ain't great, but they're pictures.
-Matt

[Matt J.]

Better yet, for [some] photos, got to www.google.com (http://www.google.com) and click on the Images, well, here you are:
Google Image search (http://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=)

and type in Irish Hooker... they have [a few] pictures. Google's a great tool, give it a try.

Good luck,
Matt

edited to add: I spoke too soon... a couple pictures, but nothing to get excited about. :rolleyes:

[ 04-02-2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Matt Joyce ]

[RGM]

Great looking boats. I was at "Sea Ocean Books" (Seattle) yesterday checking things out and noticed that the owner had tacked up a couple of drawings (copies of a pen and ink perhaps) of a Galway Hooker and a Achill Hooker. Upon seeing those I asked if he had any books that discussed and/or detailed them, provided design and line info, etc. He replied "No". However he indicated that there was something out there. So, besides Matt's fine suggestion of trying a Google Search, also try a search thru www.abebooks.com (http://www.abebooks.com) , that might yield some results. Between the two you may find something. I also am interested and will proceed with the hunt from my end and will gladly share any info that I find. Release The Hounds!!!

[seb]

Thanks for all your replies. It doesn't really seem that there is much information about this type of boat out there. To Matt: Yes please, some pictures would be nice. Can you get my e-mail address from my profile? (well, I couldn't figure out how to access other members' profiles yet). Or better yet, why don't you try posting them here on the forum, so that others will enjoy them as well and learn more about this traditional type of boat.

I'm a big fan of the history of small working vessels. It seems that most of the material and attention out there is concentrated on the impressive/large stuff - liners, warships, square riggers, merchant ships. I'm more interested in stuff that could be handled by 1-2 persons. There is something neat and beutiful about small boats.

[seb]

Just discovered that you can obtain some more results in google by trying galway+hooker. I guess this is a local version of the Irish hooker. See what more I can unearth.

[seb]

And also that the name comes from the dutch "hoeker" - no idea what it means. Still, no line plans, or description of construction materials (well, somewhere says they were made of oak).

[Thad]

I did a little mast repair last Fall for a man who was on his way to sail in one of the last Galway hookers. He had made a model of the very boat and in some way this had gotten him in contact with the boat's owner. When he came back for the stick he had a story about going out in fairly heavy conditions and having the best sail of his life (or something along that line). Since he made a model there must be drawings somewhere.

[Otter]

A set up line like "irish hookers" and we only get one joke reply? No clever names like Trixie O'Toole? C'mon guys, thats pretty sad. ;)

[RGM]

After entering a search for Galway Hookers on abebooks.com I got a few hits. They all appeared to be on the same book "Last of The Galway Hookers". There were a number of different editions available in various condition. Some were limited editions signed by the author. Quite a variation in price also. There were some in the UK, Oz and the US (mostly in California I think). It may be one of the few sources of information on the boat. Good luck.

[Jamie Hascall]

Don't forget to do a search on our Sponsors site. WB has done a number of articles on Galway Hookers, their American relative the Boston Hooker, and a book review on the Irish Hooker in issue #50.

Now how did we get through all this without a joke about them all working the waterfront and looking for sailors is beyond me! :D

[pjwalsh]

Chapelle has a lines plan of the "Boston Hooker" variant in American Small Sailing Craft. The wooden boat article has some photographs of some surviving hookers and a couple of small scale lines plans. L.F. Herreshoff describes the boston hooker type with some (uncomplimentary) words and a sketch in his book "The Compleat Cruiser"

The best photographs I have seen of the smaller Galway Hooker type (Gleotag?) are in the classic documentary film "Man of Aran" in which a crew of Aran Islanders goes out to harpoon basking sharks. The boat is unrigged and is rowed but the hull can be observed working in some rough water. The photography in this movie is magnificent by the way. There is a breathtaking sequence of a curragh shooting some really hairy looking surf.

[Allen Foote]

There was a book published in England around 1980 called "The Restoration of Yachts" that included a section on them.

[JimM]

Classicboat Magazine will have an artical about a Galway Hooker in the April magazine.

Jim McGee

[Craic]

The riddle of the Irish Hookers, where they came from originally, may be solved.:

There is an old type of medium sized shallow draught cargo sailers with one mainsail and two foresails in The Netherlands, called 'Hoogaars'.

The similarity of the names, sizes and sailplans strike me as significant.

Maybe someone is out there who wishes to explore this new lead.

[Peerie Maa]

The riddle of the Irish Hookers, where they came from originally, may be solved.:

There is an old type of medium sized shallow draught cargo sailers with one mainsail and two foresails in The Netherlands, called 'Hoogaars'.

The similarity of the names, sizes and sailplans strike me as significant.

Maybe someone is out there who wishes to explore this new lead.

No similarity what so ever, a dead end.
Look for "The Galway Hookers" by Richard J Scott.
or your starter for ten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway_hooker

[Don Kurylko]

Here’s a link to a youtube video of Hookers sailing and racing. The image quality isn’t great – a bit surreal actually – but appropriate, considering its Ireland. More video links of Hookers there as well. Definitely worth a look! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFRN-cL0Os&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFRN-cL0Os&feature=related)

[TimH]

This place has some cool T-shirts with hookers on them

http://www.galwaybayirishpub.com/

[jak3b]

The Galway Hookers by Richard J. Scott.I was given it by a friend who sails on them near Galway.Its a great book.There has been a revival of interest in traditional sailing craft there over the last 25 years or so.Many have been restored and alot of new building also.There are races every summer in the west of Ireland.

[Steve Lansdowne]

Traditional Boats of Ireland: History, Folklore and Construction edited by Criostoir Mac Carthaigh. Collins Press, 2008. Great book, expensive but heavy. Chapters on various boats, including the Hooker. 658 pages. I think it was reviewed in WB several months ago.

[Craic]

No similarity what so ever, a dead end.
Look for "The Galway Hookers" by Richard J Scott.
or your starter for ten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway_hooker

Peerie,
no question Hookers and Hoogaars are different boats today. But the question was where the Hookers originally 'came' from. And why the two names are obviously etymologically related.
Does Richard J Scott answer that?

I know my bit about Ireland. If there would have come a single 'Hoogaars' sailing into Galway Bay two centuries ago, that day may well have been the birthday of the overall name 'Hooker' for such and similar boats up and down the coast there, and it also may have inspired the local boatbuilders to adapt Hoogaars for the long swell off the coast there.

[ShagRock]

Craic, I suppose the origin of the specific Galway Hooker 'hull form' could be studied separately from the use of the word 'hooker' as in the boat's name. Washington, in his 1849 report, 'speculates' a Spanish-Irish connection going back several centuries. He suggests the word hooker is an English corruption of the old Spanish word 'urca' meaning a small fore-and-aft rigged vessel. He was also of the opinion that no boat was superior to the Kinsale hooker as the ultimate 'poor man's' fishing boat.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=nYkSAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PA70&lpg=RA3-PA70&dq=origin+of+work+hooker+as+in+fishing+boat&source=bl&ots=DW2Bi8kmLa&sig=jFbkCvI_Va0G9C9DmSPvcYm0wTI&hl=en&ei=NqgOS6qgKoimMYrw1OAC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=origin%20of%20work%20hooker%20as%20in%20fishing% 20boat&f=false

Then there is Michael Smylie's (Traditional Fishing Boats of Britain and Ireland 1999) reference to the word hooker as originally linked with the hook-and-line (hand-line and long-line) fisheries. I favor this interpretation...which, of course, reflects my own bias.

Maybe Nick can enlighten us further.

[JC 72]

I agree with you Craic. The boats may now have little in common, but the name points to a common ancestor. Thank you Mr Lansdowne for mentioning the book I was thinking of. Has anyone got a copy, and could they check on the Hooker section? Repeat after me, " That Hooker, she's a looker".

[peter radclyffe]

there is a video i think about rebuilding , the Star of the West, a big hooker, my brother bought a ferro 22ft gloetog hull , however its spelt, which had been built with an arts council grant in falmouth, he fitted it out & rigged it

[Peerie Maa]

Peerie,
no question Hookers and Hoogaars are different boats today. But the question was where the Hookers originally 'came' from. And why the two names are obviously etymologically related.
Does Richard J Scott answer that?

I know my bit about Ireland. If there would have come a single 'Hoogaars' sailing into Galway Bay two centuries ago, that day may well have been the birthday of the overall name 'Hooker' for such and similar boats up and down the coast there, and it also may have inspired the local boatbuilders to adapt Hoogaars for the long swell off the coast there.

I cannot see any reason that would take the flat bottomed fishing Hoogars all the way down channel and out into the Atlantic to reach Galway. I am afraid that it is not a credible idea. I do not know the source of the name hoogars, hooker is the English corruption of the Gaelic húicéir. The two words derive from different etymological roots. One reference has the hooker fitted out for fishing, whereas the bád mór or leath bhád were cargo carriers. However the use of "hooker" for the fishing version may just have been in the minds of the English administrators.

[Steve Lansdowne]

Hey, JC 72, I have the book I mentioned, and in fact I've read the whole thing. What specific question do you have about the hooker? If it is about the relationship of that name to hoogaar, I'll have to read a bit to find out.

[Craic]

I cannot see any reason that would take the flat bottomed fishing Hoogars all the way down channel and out into the Atlantic to reach Galway. I am afraid that it is not a credible idea.

Doesn't matter whether you or I 'can see a reason'. Only matters whether they did or not.

Given that the Vikings went there in their flat bottomed boats, and that this other viking 'the Red' guy went as far as Greenland or even America, there can be no doubt that shallow bottomed boats did enormous passages.


I do not know the source of the name hoogars, hooker is the English corruption of the Gaelic húicéir. The two words derive from different etymological roots.

I will very happily stand corrected if you can give the etymology of the gaelic word 'húicéir'. These gaelic words, you can never be sure whether they were adaptations of an english word, or vice versa.

[Peerie Maa]

Doesn't matter whether you or I 'can see a reason'. Only matters whether they did or not.
This is where we apply the "what is most likely" test. The Spanish "Urka" that Shagrock refered to. Or a fishing boat designed to trawl in shallow coastal waters a tides sail from home setting of to voyage hundreds of miles for some unknown reason.


Given that the Vikings went there in their flat bottomed boats, and that this other viking 'the Red' guy went as far as Greenland or even America, there can be no doubt that shallow bottomed boats did enormous passages.
Flat bottomed? http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis/Ships/Ship002/Image/002f014.jpg




I will very happily stand corrected if you can give the etymology of the gaelic word 'húicéir'. These gaelic words, you can never be sure whether they were adaptations of an english word, or vice versa.
Very true, From the Spanish urca, adopted into Gaelic, or the Gaelic pronunciation of Hooker as in hook and line fishing? The study of genetics suggests that the earlies settlers of the British isles came from round the western coasts of Europe, it was only after the Romans that we were settled from the east, so there is no link between the Germanic languages and the Gaelic languages

[Craic]

Peerie,
'Urca' , is that your own guess, or have you a source?

Here is what some Irish say themselves on http://www.galway1.ie/faq/hookers.htm


>>The name Hooker almost certainly comes to us from the Dutch; just which Dutch word it is, is a matter of opinion. The term Hoeker is known to apply to hook and line fishing, whereas both howker and holker correspond to a small easily maneuverable vessel. Whatever the truth may be, boats called Hookers also sail from Holland to this day, although they are of different make than those of Galway, and as these things are, we should be happy to almost know where the term originated.<<

[Peerie Maa]

Peerie,
'Urca' , is that your own guess, or have you a source?

Here is what some Irish say themselves on http://www.galway1.ie/faq/hookers.htm


>>The name Hooker almost certainly comes to us from the Dutch; just which Dutch word it is, is a matter of opinion. The term Hoeker is known to apply to hook and line fishing, whereas both howker and holker correspond to a small easily maneuverable vessel. Whatever the truth may be, boats called Hookers also sail from Holland to this day, although they are of different make than those of Galway, and as these things are, we should be happy to almost know where the term originated.<<

Shagrock posted this earlier:

Craic, I suppose the origin of the specific Galway Hooker 'hull form' could be studied separately from the use of the word 'hooker' as in the boat's name. Washington, in his 1849 report, 'speculates' a Spanish-Irish connection going back several centuries. He suggests the word hooker is an English corruption of the old Spanish word 'urca' meaning a small fore-and-aft rigged vessel. He was also of the opinion that no boat was superior to the Kinsale hooker as the ultimate 'poor man's' fishing boat.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=nYkS...20boat&f=false

There was certainly contact between Ireland and the Spanish and north African coast. The Newport boat http://www.newport.gov.uk/_dc/index.cfm?fuseaction=mediaevalship.homepage has timber from Portugal according to a TV documentary. Ireland was also subject to depradation by North African slavers as late as the 17th c, so origins from the south west are much more likely than from east of the English channel.

The site that you have quoted is from a tourist promotion site, its historical provenance is unknown, but may be no better than any other salesman's pitch.

[ShagRock]

And to complicate matters more, it is written that fishers from England, Wales, Scotland, Gascony, Brittany, and Iberia frequented the Irish waters in 1300-1400 period; and by the late 1500s, hundreds of Spanish ships were 'reputedly' sailing to Ireland to fish each year (from Starkey et al..England's Sea Fisheries). Other sources note a lot of trade (in fish and other goods) going on between Ireland and locales like Bristol, Devon, and Cornwall going way back in time.

I like Nick's use of the 'best guess' scenario, because that's sometimes as certain as one can get given the knowledge at hand.

So does the same uncertainty exist with respect to the origin of the term 'hooker' as applied to all the other well know 'hookers' (eg Plymouth hooker) that were built around British coasts?

[Zakkendrager]

Seb, There is a fascinating book called "Voyage" written by Paddy Barry (lives in Dublin, recently sailed the Northwest passage over a several year period) that is about his voyage on his Galway Hooker, "Saint Patrick" to America in 1986. It was published by Gill and Macmillan in 1986. I had the great good fortune (except for the near gale conditions) while working in Ireland to sail with Paddy from Cork to Dublin aboard the Saint Patrick. He had modernized her somewhat with an extended cabin, diesel engine, radar, nav, etc. But she still had a peat stove, had 10 bunks, and no winches or modern head facilities (bucket and chuck it...). The boom was the size of a small power pole and the weather helm required the helmsman to brace his back against the tiller. But, built very stout. Wonderful boat. RC