Sailboats & motors...

[John Hastie]

I know this has come up before, but I wonder what it is about sailboats and motors.

I grew up sailing on Lake Michigan. I have sailed up to a 42' Choy Lee sailoat. While I have had a 16' wooden sailboat for 30 years, I have had a motor on it for practical reasons.

Some examples - When you take out your wife and her girl friends, and they start looking for the motor when it is 5 o'clock in the afternoon and they wonder why you are tacking out again to get to where you want to go! Or, when you are swamped by an ocean vessel slowing down and filling your boat with water so that the floatation of the wood has you just barely out of the water. Starting the motor so she comes up out of the water so you can bail her out while staying in the boat.

Fog? Do you just want to sit there in little wind? How about when 2 40' racers slide by you in the fog on each side 10' apart?

What I want to know is what is wrong with practical?

Now, I'm 60 and I sail a O'Day Day Sailor II because I just don't want to use seaming cotton, caulking and varnish, varnish, varnish.

What is your opinion? Have I missed something here by not being dogmatic (read, no motor)?

Finally, I use to sail out of Wilmette Harbor. In the 60's, if you were in a Star, you had to heel over to clear the bottom for your fixed keel. Years later, a friend and new sailor, had me sail back in to the can to tie up and I couldn't believe I could still do it. He just didn't have the courage to go against the other sailors and use a motor. Oh well, help me out here with your opinion.

[ 05-14-2004, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: John Hastie ]

[Noah]

Motors can be great. They can also be a pain. I got one on my boat...it's 3 cyl, and 35 HP, and I can do 7.3 knots or cruise at 6. It's great.

That said, I also sail a bunch of racing boats, and we very rarely use the motor. We sail on and off the dock, and it's great. We are all better sailors because of it, and who wants the added weight? (Actually we have a 2hp motor tied down at the lowest possible point, but it isn't used much)

If it's a safety issue, sure use a motor...it just isn't worth it otherwise. If it's a "I'm not good enough to sail into that place" well you can fix that with a bit of work.

Now about having a plastic boat...sure they work just fine, but I enjoy all parts of my boat. From working on it, to looking at it to sailing it. And a large part of that is because it's wood.

Noah
--

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by Noah:
Now about having a plastic boat...sure they work just fine, but I enjoy all parts of my boat. From working on it, to looking at it to sailing it. And a large part of that is because it's wood.

Noah
--Sounds like for Noah, boating is a lifestyle rather than just something to do..."being" on the water is where pleasure is found, rather than just "doing" something on the water.

Many owners of wooden boats find themselves talking to their boats...whether it is actually verbalized or done silently, sailing is afterall a conversation with the boat...which is why they are traditionally referred to as "she". In regard to glass boats...the only talking directed at a glass boat by the owner is usually not very polite...to say the least.

[ 05-18-2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: cburgess ]

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by John Hastie:
I know this has come up before, but I wonder what it is about sailboats and motors.

...snipped...

What is your opinion? Have I missed something here by not being dogmatic (read, no motor)?

Finally, I use to sail out of Wilmette Harbor. In the 60's, if you were in a Star, you had to heel over to clear the bottom for your fixed keel. Years later, a friend and new sailor, had me sail back in to the can to tie up and I couldn't believe I could still do it. He just didn't have the courage to go against the other sailors and use a motor. Oh well, help me out here with your opinion.I'd say that you are missing out on the experience that only comes from developing true seamanship skills:

...no wind? That is what oars are for.
...swamped by a large wake? If the boat is made from wood you have little to worry about.

Prior to the availability of the internal combustion engine for boats of the size that we usually use for recreational sailing, our forebearers done quite well without motors. Today most recreational "sailors" couldn't imagine life without a motor on a sailboat.

By relying on a motor to compensate and delay the full development of the skills in traditional seamanship, you are missing out on the true pleasure of sailing through experiencing the nuances of true seamanship. The nuances make all the difference, much like the differences between a meal cooked on a stove, grill, or in an oven, compared to a meal solely cooked in a mircrowave oven...it's a matter of taste.

[John B]

Yeah, well.

and then there is the nuance of getting to work on monday.Even though I'd prefer not to go there, I'll stick with the motor thanks.

That's interesting. I just looked at your homepage. Very nice too.
I see you have a photo of Rona there. She's currently moored about 15 metres away from us .What's your connection with her?

[ 05-18-2004, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Figment]

I'd love to do without the engine. Buncha weight in the wrong part of the boat taking up all that space. Money I'd rather spend on sails, etc...

But some of us live in reigons where mooring fields are the exception, not the rule. Making one's way up a narrow, winding, windless, heavily trafficked river, then docking at a marina.... iron breeze required.

[gert]

the first reason not to put a motor in a little boat is the SMELL. ;)

[Tom Brady]

Everyone ought to have a motor on a sailboat. I bought a 5hp Seagull for my 23' trailer(?)boat and it was great. It normally ran just long enough to get me 50 to 500 feet from the dock and then quit, everytime. I could never get it to restart that same day. So, over the course of a couple of summers I learned to dock under sail. I probably would never have learned otherwise. :D By the way, it was the wrong shape to use for an anchor therefore completely useless. :eek:

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by John B:
Yeah, well.

and then there is the nuance of getting to work on monday.Even though I'd prefer not to go there, I'll stick with the motor thanks.

That's interesting. I just looked at your homepage. Very nice too.
I see you have a photo of Rona there. She's currently moored about 15 metres away from us .What's your connection with her?John,

"Getting to work on Monday"...the compromise of idealism to reality - I can understand that. In my locality, NW Florida, it is rare that a decent breeze isn't blowing, thus a motor wouldn't get me home any faster.

Thanks for you kind remarks about my website. After getting a brief look at the Rona many years ago, and how her lines strongly reminded me (reminded me...haunted me is more accurate)of some of some designs of a few generations ago, especially those by Edward Burgess, I was inspired to design and build a smaller design along those classic lines; 30ft LOD with a 20ftLWL, gaff rigged of course. The pic I used was taken in Pensacola Bay (20 years ago) on her maiden voyage heading out to the Gulf of Mexico. She was later destroyed during hurricane Erin. So, other than her serving as a source of inspiration, I have no real connection with the Rona.

I am currently working on a newer design where the rigg's geometry will be change to allow for a crew of only 2 or 3, maybe a gaff rigged schooner would be nice...tank testing at this time.

If you can, take some photos (different angles) of the Rona and share'em here.

Regards,

Charles

[ 05-20-2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Charles Burgess ]

[John B]

How many do you want Charles? LOL.
she's looking a bit scruffy at the mo. She came up to auckland in 03 for our big regatta and she's stayed since. John wants to sell her for whats regarded as fairly big money here but there are no bites . The somethingorother act of parliament prevents her from being exported .
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p0900ca9ea87c22d8157a3a5b3972754c/fca928c8.jpg
there's about 5 or 6 in this album Charles( towards the end mostly)
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290693591&code=9766755&mode=invite&cmp=EMC-IS_other&creative=album-invite

[ 05-20-2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Paul Pless]

John,

What's up with that act requiring heritage yachts to remain in New Zealand? If he gets an offer abroad does the goverment have to match it? What if he smuggles it out of the country, will the New Zealand Navy track it down?

Paul

ps. If your not carefull you'll probably end up reading up on Burgess history soon. :D

[John B]

Done that! But not recently. Rona is of an age for Edward Burgess (although I tend to think of his boats mostly being a bit earlier? zat right ?) Rona is 1890 something ( 1892?)A Robert Logan Senior build to a GL Watson design and she was outclassed pretty soon after being built by the new generation boats.( first the cutaway forefoots and transitional bows, then the full spoon bows)

"will they track it down"

Yup. thats what they did with Iorangi. seized her on the docks in Sydney(AUS) and forced a large bond to be posted pending her return.

[Paul Pless]

John,

Drool. Those pictures are fantastic. But, you've finally done it. You included a picture of an ugly boat for the first time here. So now I know there is at least one in New Zealand. That catamaran of the Rona's stern is hideous.

Paul

[Paul Pless]

Yup. thats what they did with Iorangi. seized her on the docks in Sydney(AUS) and forced a large bond to be posted pending her return. And this matches international law? the Aussies didn't care or even argue it? What's that done to the historic yacht scene down there? Are people hesitant to restore those boats now? It sounds great if your a New Zealander looking for a good deal on a boat though?

Paul.

ps My favorite things about Rona are her narrowness, and that beautiful uncluttered deck. How deep is she? Does she stand up to her rig. How well does she point?

[John B]

We're a small country Paul.( 4 mil pop) There's only about 60 boats of that general type/age here.( pre 1920 say.) If they could be sold offshore, they'd be gone for good. That isn't going to happen.
What's happening is that the cheap old boats are gradually getting more expensive because people are beginning to realise that they are a unique resource. A couple have recently sold to wealthy people and they are about to chuck large sums at them to improve them. So its changing slowly but yachting in NZ is still a pretty egalitarian occupation in general. I bought a cheap old boat but we've put a lot of sweat equity into her.

Rona. Um, from memory and in general terms( the info is available but elsewhere) She's about 44 ft on deck by about 8ft beam ( I 'm thinking she might be something like about 7ft 10 or so) and she is deep. I'm picking about 7ft.
Apart from the fact that there's not many of a similar size /age to race with out of Auckland, John freely admits that he needed more race time on her to bring her up to a competitive standard.
I think he's just taken the occasional cruise and never really had her up against any boat like her.
So no, she didn't point particularly well or go particularly fast but I think in flat water she could.
Waitangi, the 57 foot Logan Snr of a very similar type as Rona, has been going like a rocket in her first NZ race season for 50 years or so.

[MarkC]

I dont mind the NZ heritage law - the boats that qualify are an important part of NZ heritage. They 'belong' to the citizens of NZ - I wonder if there will be tax-breaks for restorations now that these boats are on the heritage list? Is there a restoration guide/council or is it left up to the good nature of the restorer owner?

[Ian McColgin]

About engines - Even I admit to their utility on the cruising boat if you mostly operate along shore but for a small open boat . . .

I'll bet I've written this tale here before but repitition is the key to refinement . . . whether accuracy or embellishment we'll see . . .

I grew up on the Dead Sea - Long Island Sound - sailing in Mother's Cape Cod Knockabout. The CC is a wonderful 18' CB very at home in the marvelous and usually boisterous conditions of Nantucket Sound. She was a wretched slug in the prepetual calms we had off Port Jefferson.

The other boats in the Practical Handicap fleet all had outboards and in the calms they would often abandon the race and motor back to the club for post race lies and cocktails.

So comes one of those LIS greasy oily glassy calm days, temp edging 100F and humidity so high that all human pores are clogged at the mere thought of it. We were drifting out on the ebb. The rest of the fleet was puttering home leaving just a blue haze of outboard smoke. The committed boat had taken up the mark and waved, but offered no tow, as they too headed in. My next brother and my sister fussing and whining and fighting. I was eight and very proud of my ability to stay still to let the sails draw. Not that my stillness helped, what with motor boat wakes and my fighting sibs and all. Mom had my youngest, then 4 month old brother in her arms when a big cabin cruiser roared up to starboard.

You could hear the loudhailer switch on. Even in the '50's stinkpotters have to use all the gizmos.

"May I offer you a tow?" came the booming patronizingly polite offer.

Mother stood tall in the stern with her youngest at her breast to reply,

"No thank you. We're racing."

The tide turned about 1900 and we drifed back into Setauket Harbor about midnight.

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
...snipped...

ps. If your not carefull you'll probably end up reading up on Burgess history soon. :D Hey...what's wrong with that? ....LOL.

Being the family's historian, I know that nothing is worse than listening to a grandparent wax endlessly about their grandchildren than a genealogist doing the same about the family tree...in my case goes back to the late 1200's...LOL

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by John B:
How many do you want Charles? LOL.
she's looking a bit scruffy at the mo. She came up to auckland in 03 for our big regatta and she's stayed since. John wants to sell her for whats regarded as fairly big money here but there are no bites . The somethingorother act of parliament prevents her from being exported .John,

Beautiful pics. The Rona looking scruffy....nah, she looks honest...the best kind of boat.

Given the circumstances the current owner finds himself in relation to NZ law, I would recommend that he set up a non profit org, thereby spreading the financial load. He could then slowly sell his interest in her to the org and then the org can raise funds to preserve her. (At least that approach would work under US law.)

[Paul Pless]

Charles,

John and I, along with about 5000 other forum members have large libraries of yacht and boat design catalogs. Often after a particularly delicious post it is not unusual for John B, to mention something like, "Nobody mention the word Herreshoff, for a while, I'm too busy reading up on so and so....".

Yacht Designer and Builder histories are not boring to me. :D

I look forward to seeing your website completed, and I'd also like to mention that I'm glad your here.

Paul

[Dave Williams]

Ian,

Great story. Thanks!

And I suspect you might have some thoughts re: a thread I posted some days ago. "Proportions for a big sweep oar".

To kindness,
Dave

[ 05-21-2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Dave Williams ]

[John B]

I just love threads like this. They go on like a conversation.

Mark. there is no governing council or grants available although I suspect that this may change gradually. There is certainly a new pressure to restore faithfully rather than 'make go' but there are problems with this approach. The main one being that the boats become unusable without large crews. then they sit, then they become museum pieces and people like me, who have kept a vintage boat sailing for 20 years by making do, keeping winches and using modern cordage etc because of cost/benefit issues are now becoming the bad guys. Go figure.

Ian. I love that story.

Charles, that pic of Rona was taken in jan 03 and she's a bit down on that now. It's just cyclic though... nothing to be worried about or that a haul and a paint up wouldn't fix.

( I can feel a big read up on Burgess's coming on) can you refresh me as to the time that Edward B was principally designing. Without going to a book, I place him as an older contemporary of NGH. Particularly that period when Capt Nat was working with steam primarily. Have I got the time frame about right?

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
Charles,

John and I, along with about 5000 other forum members have large libraries of yacht and boat design catalogs. Often after a particularly delicious post it is not unusual for John B, to mention something like, "Nobody mention the word Herreshoff, for a while, I'm too busy reading up on so and so....".

Yacht Designer and Builder histories are not boring to me. :D

I look forward to seeing your website completed, and I'd also like to mention that I'm glad your here.

PaulPaul,

Thanks for the explaination ... I had figured that I was entering a "room" in the middle of a "long time conversation". You and John B, among many here, are obviously passionate about boats and seafaring, likened to that observed among wine tasters and collectors of fine art.

Regards,

Charles

[Charles Burgess]

Originally posted by John B:
...snipped... Rona is of an age for Edward Burgess (although I tend to think of his boats mostly being a bit earlier? zat right ?) Rona is 1890 something ( 1892?)...snipped...John,

You are correct, Edward Burgess was in his prime from the late 1860's through the late 1880's.

Regards,

Charles

P.S. Given Paul's disclosure of your reading habits, I am sure that you are aware that Edward Burgess initially hired Herreshoff as a draftsman, and under his wing Herreshoff's talents as a designer were nutured.

[Charles Burgess]

Oh...just an observation on the original topic of this thread: given the price of fuel, a motor on a small sailboat is dead weight...usually in the wrong place for proper trim...LOL

[phiil]

Oh, gosh. I sail a Sea Pearl 21. Not wooden, but taken from L. Francis Whatshisname's lines. I do carry an engine, of the outboard variety, two and one half of Mercury's finest two-cycle horses. It stays in the car a lot of the time, and under the cockpit most of the rest of the time, but when I need it, I'm glad it's there. Monday mornings and all that.

But, I still sail the river right up to the launch ramp far more often than not. I did pass the Coasties, under sail, doing 7.1 knots in a 5MPH zone last week, and they all smiled and waved at me. That does make my heart sing.

Here's the part I don't get: Even in Grandfather's 41 foot Wiley ketch, we sailed the mooring most times. Granted, that was when there was far less traffic in the river. But, although there is still plenty of room and time to sail at least into the outer harbor, I am noticing a trend to douse sail and start the kicker farther and farther out to sea. I mean, around a mile or so out! Now, I have had various jet-skiers and other non-rag propulsion folks tell me that it is ILLEGAL to not use my motor in the river. (What if I don't have one???) I do believe that Greenport, L.I. does have such a rule, but please, someone tell me it is not on the books as a universal truth.

So, my point is: Use them infernal combustion things when you must, but do learn a little close-order sailing, and be able to pick up a mooring, or, if you really want to show off, sail into a slip! Sail backwards into a slip! And do it all without having to flaunt the sail-over-power rule. It's not that hard, and an incredible lot of fun.

And remember that is is no sin to have to fend off, but it is a sin to fail do so when you should have.

Ketch yawl later,
Phil

[John B]

I agree with all that you say.
I still can't help but remember the fear I felt rounding cape brett when the wind dropped away to nothing.(We ran our boat for 7 years without a motor). The northerly swell from the previous weeks weather washed us down towards the cape and the several hundred metres we had kept for searoom disappeared fast.I towed the boat away with a 2 hp on our dinghy until a new breeze came in.
And there are plenty of precedents for boats being lost in similar circumstances. This one, the Teddy, was a total at Challenger island off Kawau, for example.
http://www.arthur-ransome.org/ar/scrubbin.html

[ 05-24-2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[TimH]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
John,

What's up with that act requiring heritage yachts to remain in New Zealand? If he gets an offer abroad does the goverment have to match it? What if he smuggles it out of the country, will the New Zealand Navy track it down?

Paul

ps. If your not carefull you'll probably end up reading up on Burgess history soon. :D '

At first I thought that that would be a good idea for the US too, but after looking at what shape some of those boats that have been purchased out of the country (like that picture of Dorade in the latest WB) they are probably better off in a country where people care more about beautiful things like wooden boats and heritage than taking over piss-ant Arab countries.

[John B]

On thinking about what I just said, I remembered this shot taken at christmas this year at the very same cape. We lost the exhaust elbow so were out of power. The wind gradually dropped away to nothing and we were left slatting in the swells left over from a tropical cyclone that went through the pacific islands the previous week.
It was the PITS.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/pbebfa5dc1790c900646227122c733aa8/f9c785d5.jpg

[Stiletto]

I remember directing an American sailor to an empty mooring next to my boat, all the while admiring how he handled the long keeled vessel in the gentle winds and stronger tide that were running that day.

I was saddened to learn that the vessel was later lost when he ran aground in the Pacific.

I often wondered if an engine would have helped him avoid that loss.

[John B]

Stiletto, was that the Lion class lost up towards Hawaii a couple of years ago? I never did get his name but he was well known around Akl.He was here for some years and did some pretty major work to that boat, then left and sank it some where up by Hawaii.I can't remember exactly what happened. (whether he hit a rock or something out there floating) He got off OK I'm sure.

[ 05-25-2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Bill Fisher]

I learned to sail on the Dead Sea too (AKA Long Island Sound), off of Westport, CT.

I was invited to go for a sail on an Atlantic, a 30 foot, sloop rigged, day sailor without motor or power of any kind. Designed by Starling Burgess in 1928, Cedar Point Yacht Club has an active racing fleet that promotes and preserves the traditional nature of these lovely boats. The captain, indeed most of the fleet, had been sailing their boats for years and years and handled them so well that it frightened new crew (me). We sailed from the dock in the morning and returned in the afternoon, sailing right to the dock. At race starting lines and first marks the fleet was pack so tight it seemed that they were wired together; surely they must collide, but they never touched once in the eight years that I sailed with them (except at one National but that was personal).

Coming from that upbringing I must admit that I am partial to un-powered sailboats. I am in the process of building a Haven 12 ½ because it represents so much of the traits that I admired in those grand, old Atlantics. I may get a small motor, for safeties sake (even the Atlantic fleet had a large committee boat to tow or rescue boats) and to appease SWMBO, but it is my intention to learn to sail that boat as tribute to those old salts that invited the cocky young man to go for a sail.

Bill.

[Garrett Lowell]

Bill, I've been following your building on the Havenbuilders website. Can't wait for the next update.

[Stiletto]

John B, yes thats the one I was thinking of, my memories are a bit dim too.

My Feelings towards the engine/no engine debate are that the old time sailors were more than happy to fit them to their boats once they could afford them, and no one doubted their seamanship.

I would also go so far as to say that good seamanship demands that we take all reasonable safety precautions. In my opinion in this day and age having a working engine is one of them, in vessels of a reasonable size.

[ 05-27-2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Stiletto ]

[Art Read]

"I may get a small motor, for safeties sake (even the Atlantic fleet had a large committee boat to tow or rescue boats) and to appease SWMBO, but it is my intention to learn to sail that boat as tribute to those old salts that invited the cocky young man to go for a sail."
_____________________________

Pretty much sums up all my rationalisations... That and the fact that I'm quite often lazy/impatient and cheap. (SWMBO paid for it! ;) )

That being said, I DID build her so that the engine and mounting bracket, when removed, leave nothing to betray their existance but a small, bronze plate thru-bolted to the aft deck. I even incorporated a little "cradle" in the floorboard design, up under the bows, amidships, to stash it out of site when leaving it ashore isn't an option.

Bottom line, I've never "needed" it in order to go sailing... OR to get home again. But there have been times that just having it there, already on the transom, made the difference between spontaniously deciding to cast off the docklines for a quick hour's sail or... not...

With the moorage I have currently, paddling, warping or sailing her in and out is only a realistic option in "favorable" conditions. I've sailed her in and out a few times, just 'cause I could, and it seemed prudent to "try" it out when I WANTED to, rather than when I NEEDED to, for the first time.

To be honest, I don't feel at all guilty for firing up the outboard and just getting going while the weather's good. No offense, but I'm sorry if it ruins the "aesthics" for those of you "pooh-poohing" the sacriledge... I built the boat for SWMBO and myself to enjoy. Not all of you. (Though you're ALL welcome to come for a sail if you happen by... ;) )

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid107/pf1ac12a9cd68fd891f1e3e4a797000f3/f956b954.jpg

(Just to "clarify" my situation, the "opening" out into the fairway is off her starboard bow in the above picture...)

[ 05-27-2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Art Read]

"...By relying on a motor to compensate and delay the full development of the skills in traditional seamanship, you are missing out on the true pleasure of sailing through experiencing the nuances of true seamanship..."

True enough. But having hauled short a 500 lb. anchor on three shots of chain with a manual windlass, climbed aloft to loose sail, slid down backstays to man halyards, sheets and braces and then sailing out, BACKWARDS, off the hook, in countless Carribean anchorages, as crew aboard a 115', square-rigged, brigantine, between flocks of nestling bareboats, just to "thrill" our passengers, then running forward again, breathlessly, to finish hauling in, fishing and catting the anchor, I can STILL appreciate the gratifying sound of an engine rumbling to life on an early, pre-coffee and breakfast morning. Even IF the pretty girls on the boat anchored next to us are topless... ;)

[Bill Fisher]

Garrett,
Thanks for the interest, I had no idea that anyone other than builders even looks at the site. Although I am just about a year into the project (year 1 of a projected 5) I still can’t wait to get into the shop and work on the boat. I think I’ve found the perfect balance between working enough on the boat to get something accomplished and not working so much so as to burn out. Next set of pictures should be out soon.

It really is a delicate balance isn’t.

On one hand I’m building a classic day sailor which was meant to be rowed when becalmed, but I have no intention of installing oar locks. Oar locks require oars, which sounds like tedious labor to me, no thank you.

Hanging a motor off the back is going to detract from the boat’s sweet lines and disturb the fore and aft balance but there’s that unpalatable oar option again.

I agree with Stiletto that its good seamanship not to leave my hull colors on other peoples boats and I’m not sure its such a feather in my cap to be picked up by the Coast Guard either.

No boat would be worth the grief I would get from SWMBO if I straggled in at o’dark thirty, nor would I be please with myself if I upset her that much.

And don’t responsible captains have the obligation to return crew at reasonable hours, in good condition? Abuse crew too much and you’ll be sailing alone (or living alone in my case) which my be necessary sometimes but it isn’t too safe either.

I like Art’s idea of building the boat with a motor in mind. A bit of tinkering with the plans should allow for the convenience and safety of a motor when you need it and a spot to hide it when you don’t.

Bill

[Scott Rosen]

Hi Bill,

I grew up sailing out of CPYC, too. I spent a lot of time sailing in the Thistle Fleet, and it was always a thrill to watch the Atlantics at the starting line.

I crewed on an Atlantic a couple of times, but I missed the thrill of an over-powered, not-very-stable, but very fast planing centerboard boat.

When I was a little kid, my dad kept a Frisco Flyer at CPYC, when it was still at the Longshore basin. The boats were moored, and the YC ran a launch service, with the saltiest old launch driver you could imagine. The move the present location was major upgrade. After the move, I took sailing lessons on the fleet of Super Sprites. For our final class, we had to solo to Cockenoe. That day there was no wind and the tide was low, so we got out of the boats and walked them across the sand bar to the Island.

Thanks for reminding me. As far as motors in boats . . . well if you do any cruising in LIS, and you work for a living or have any kind of schedule to keep, you really can't do it without a motor. The tides are too strong and the summer winds are too fluky.

[John B]

Wouldn't you just know it...you speak about something like this and Voila....
we went out today for our second winter race this season on my mates 32 footer. weird forecast. Squall warnings for 45 knots as the 2 fronts came over. ( it never got over 30 though).
anyway.. as we started up the marina channel the motor died and wouldn't start so we ended up sailing out for the race and sailing back in. It's on its last legs that motor.
Coming back in was perfect timing as far as the weather went. We came up the harbour( racing) in 10 then 20 then 30 knots again as the second weather front came through(It was up and down like a yoyo all day,) crossed the line in 20 and looped around only 200 metres or so for the entrance to the marina where the wind died away on cue to about 5 or 7 knots. 5 or six short tacks up the fairway with the wind right on the nose, claw down the main for the turn, a slide down the 'aisle'at 2 knots max under jib and we were back in easy.
I just hope Tony doesn't get a telling off for sailing his boat in the marina. He was away out of town for the weekend.

" Hi Tony,... Mate... we broke your motor, oh... and the Ports company want to speak to you" :D

[ 05-30-2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[John B]

One of the guys just rang me.. we won the race on handicap ar ahar har. Should have gone to the club instead of having a drink on board.....

we're making Tony ( the owner) re apply for his job since we've just raised our value. :D
oo yeah, oo yeah.

[John Hastie]

Somehow, I had the feeling this topic might generate some interest.

Hey, all, I'm 60 years old now and in those years, I actually did learn how to sail (yes, right to the mooring can).

One thing I didn't mention was that on Lake Michigan, when I got caught "in irons", the flies were voracious and would only leave when there was movement, i.e., the motor.

Anyway, I appreciated all your fellings and insights.

By the way, I use a very well tuned Evinrude Lightwin 3 and it doesn't much stink.

John H.

[Noah]

John,

We won our race on Saturday as well. The next boat crossed the line 12 minutes after us...though everyone seems to think it was more like 25 minutes...heck we beat a J-35 by 14 minutes un-corrected 30 minutes corrected, and they rate 18 seconds per mile faster...

All this in a 24ft boat...

Conditions were right for us though, and we got a couple of great downwind rides with the big asym up, and we drove the boat well upwind.

Noah

[John B]

I was thinking of asking you John, whether you liked/ minded the way this thread has gone. ;)

Noah, you're in one of those light displacement sport boats eh. We're in a 1970's cruiser trying to race similar units. We only have a chance on handicap so we just have to suck it in and sail well to windward while watching them steam away downhill.....( broach... go on broach, ya .....) :D

[Noah]

Yeah, our little boat is quick, but you really have to work for the speed. We sail the boat like a dinghy, and on a long race it gets pretty tedious. After 35 roll tacks I'm beat. Plus our rating sucks! It's a Melges 24, and we PHRF at 99. It goes pretty well upwind, and once it gets up to 15 knots or so we can really plane downwind. I think that we have had it up to 15-18 knots before...it's one hell of a ride.

http://www.lcyc-vt.org/photos/2003/race_A1/IMG_2358.JPG

There we are in up-wind mode. We get killed in 6-12 knots because we only have the jib, no genoa. The roached out main helps, but not enough. Still we won the local racing series last year, so I'm not complaining too much.

[Noah]

I should also mention that there are no winches on this boat. You pull all the ropes with muscle...my hands hurt just thinking about it.

A few more images:

http://www.vanvlietzeilen.nl/foto/melgesreach.jpg

http://www.pegasus.com/images/gallery/Melges24GoldCup2002/pegasus-racing-philippe-kahn-sailing-melges24goldcup2002_ 08_L.jpg

[ 06-01-2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Noah ]

[John B]

looks like fun. big fun.
Our best bet is to intimidate boats like yours :D
We race this old 70's boat coastal and winter harbour racing mainly because we have such great fun. A really good bunch. We cruise with em over summer too.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid100/p31289054da93077c933c07dd5715f62e/f9e475d3.jpg
Then we drag Waione out for the odd classic race in summer.

[Stiletto]

What design is it John? The way the weather was up here last weekend I think you are pretty keen to be out in it. I've been sneaking the odd weekday sail in when the weather is good, but nothing this week.

[Paul Pless]

Our best bet is to intimidate boats like yours I don't remember the boat, but it was a big gaff rigged cutter, with topsail. It may have been the replica Bloodhound, but for some reason I think it was one of the original Fifes. Anyway, one of the crew mentioned that when they were feeling crowded by smaller boats at regattas, that is when they set the topsail. I think the spars for the topsail were something like 30-40 feet long. Talk about intimidation!

[John B]

Horizon 32 by Frank Pelin Stilletto. We do the Coastal classic on her too. Yeah, bad weather, difficult to call although it appears we were in a window relatively speaking. You see the Townson that got lost off Taranaki Monday night? They waited for the weather window and the change and went to ride up here on the south wester.
They broached and rolled in 5 m seas and lost the mast. Then got rolled 3 more times and filled up. 1 man lost. 3 safe. Wooden boat eh.. she didn't sink by the looks. She washed up on the rocks ( and broke up)along with the survivors and the lost skipper.
pretty damn upsetting and I don't even know them.
I would have gone on that forecast.

More on the weather aspect.. The forecasts I heard were for the squall warnings to go through on Sunday when we were racing and then a change from the NW to the SW and easing to 20 or 25. Even on monday night and the subsequent news reports of the loss They were reporting the winds as 30 knots. Our house quarters off to the SW and the manukau and the gusts that were hitting us that night were savage. In other words,... 30 knots my butt.

[ 06-01-2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Stiletto]

I missed that particular bit of bad news, I was out of touch most of the weekend with the flu and sort of came to around tuesday. The poor buggers.

Regarding the weather reports, I pretty much make my own judgements after looking at the map first and then the sky. The swell figures are often wrong too. The most I expect is notification of a general trend.

I like Pelin's launches, he is less acclaimed for his yachts I think, your mate's one obviously goes well, but I suppose that is down to the top crew. ;)