Basic winch question

[Matt Middleton]

All right- so you have your jib sheet wrapped around a winch a few times, sheeted in properly, but when you release tension on the end of the sheet, the sheet slips. :confused: How are you supposed to secure the sheet? Is there something ahead of the winch, or something behind, or do I not have enough turns around the winch? I'm sure this is the most basic of basic sailing questions, but I'm just starting, so bear with me please... redface.gif

Matt Middleton

[Dale Genther]

Assuming you don't have self tailing winches, there should be a cleat if some sort after the winch onto which you secure the tail of the jib sheet. BTW in case you didn't know this etiher, the sheet always wraps around the winch in a clockwise direction

[Dan McCosh]

The basic idea is to tie off the line under tension to a cleat behind the winch. A light tension on the cleated line holds the line secure while the winch itself takes the heavy loads..

It's also possible to run the line through a so-called "jam cleat"--a cam-operated device--before the line reaches the winch. This allows the line to be removed from the winch after the line is secured, and the same winch can be put to other uses.

[Gresham CA]

Matt,

If you boat is not too large you might want to consider clam cleats. They have no moving parts to rust or maintain.

[Ian McColgin]

Unless the winch is self-tailing, you need to pull a bit on the line to keep tension allowing the grinding winch to pull the sheet in.

You can eas the sheet by carefully allowing it to slide out a little - fine adjustment possible.

In general:

One wrap is correct for a snubbing (no handle winch) and for any winch when you are pulling the line in rapidly and are not cranking on the winch. Too many wraps and you'll get an overcaste or riding hitch on the winch that's a terrible pain to remove.

When tacking, you put the one wrap on the new sheet and pull, keeping pace with the sail, till it comes about to the new lee rail. Then:

Three wraps is about the normal practical number for good friction when grinding in.

Under really heavy loading, more wraps diminishes the work the tailer (person pulling on the line to keep some tension on the wraps) has to do. If you're solo, the tailer is your left hand and the grinder is your right hand.

You should never never ever not even think don't do it run a sheet through a jam cleat ahead of the winch. Too highly loaded for safe rapid release. You can get away with this on hallyards, and it's not odd to see one winch serving a gang of hallyards that leade to it from a rack of clutches.

The two ways to secure:

A cleat, either normal or jam; or

A tuggies hitch.

G'luck

[David N.]

you might try , tailing off with just one turn , then as you get most of the slack out , take another turn , and again , once you have 3 even 4 turn's get the bitter end around a cleat and snub it off .

On releasing , dont try and slip the sheet out , prone to override ( * ) , instead when you come about , the sail will luff at that moment lift the sheet straight up ( in the air ) to clear the winch .

It is all practice , many year's ago , I worked at Barient winch co. , durning an A/C , Both Interpid and Courageous " practice coffee grinder drums " came back in 60 day's , almost cut in half , they used wire sheet's . BOL

( * ) There is another method of " frezzing " the line on the drum , get comfy with the above and I will tell you later .

[Matt Middleton]

Thanks all for the explanation- I currently don't have a cleat to use for the purpose, and there are cam cleats ahead of the winches, but I assumed that those were to secure one sheet while the other was brought in (two headsails, one pair of winches). And yes, I have experienced the difficulty in releasing the sheet from the cam cleat!

What suggestions do you have for using one winch for two sheets? I've only sailed with one headsail up so far, so I haven't yet had to deal with this problem.

Thanks,
Matt

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

as you play the jib, I used to leave the handle in, and take up a bit of slack when I released the sheet from the cleat... at least I remember it this way, since you usually got yelled at if you messed up in a race. :D

[Ian McColgin]

Generally the staysail is small enough that you don't handle that sheet through a winch.

Get some good seamanship books and learn proper safe handling as a lot of folk really mess up on this. Also helps to find a good sailor who can show you.

People I've trained are much beloved on other's boats as they manage the winches so well.

Another of my prejudices:

Keep the handle off the winch except when you're actually grinding. It's just a tangle waiting to happen at any other time.

I like the tuggie's hitch which is like a caste cleat knot, check Brion Toss's book, as you then need no cleat.

[Matt Middleton]

So it is OK to use a cam cleat on the staysail? (to satisfy my curiosity until I go dig up the books... :D )

Also, on the subject of tacking- I have what I call a sprit boom that projects forward of the mast- about 85% of the time, the sail itself or the sheets get fouled when coming about. Is there a traditional way to prevent this?

Thanks again,
Matt

[Ian McColgin]

It's a matter of taste. If you're running from the winch back to a cleat, a nice wooden cleat will hold quite well but many preferr an at least precieved convenience of cam cleats. The cam cleat's biggest advantage is that if it's laid out well, a crew member on the weather rail can tend the jib, popping the sheet free of the cleat to ease and resetting as needed, all without having to go to the leeward side.

You may want a good local rigger to consult or make some detailed diagrams and/or photos to get up so we can have lots of conflicting advice going.

I'm not sure what you have for foresails. The term for that hard spar along the foot of the jib or forestaysail can get confusing as jibboom is actually an extension on the bowsprit. If you've only one headsail and it's boomed, the more common term today would be to call that spar the jib club.

If you've a boomed forestaysail and jib flying free beyond thant, then whether it's a forestaysail club or forestaysail boom is not a matter of confusion as it's still that damn hard thing that makes the foredeck crew fearful when you're running . . .

Gonna need a much more coherant description and/or pix and/or drawing to diagnos the tangle as there are about a dozen common misriggings that come to mind that could cause this.

Give us more.

[Noah]

I will ad a second technique that we use on our racing sailboat (Melges 24) and my Folkboat which is always sailed with an experianced crew.

Instead of leading the jib sheet around a winch, I send it through a ratcheting turning block. From there, there is a Harken jam cleat 5 inches after the turning block. We have never had a problem getting the sheet out of the jam cleat. (Though a real cleat you could...)

On the far side of the boat or cockpit is another a second jam cleat at the same hight as the first one. If it is a windy day, and you need everyone on the rail you run the sheet through both jam cleats. Then when you are on the windward rail high up in the air, if you need to sheet in the jib, you can simply push down on the sheet which is suspended across the cockpit. This is a simple easy way to sheet in the sail in small increments without leaving the rail.

It can work just the same way in light conditions and single handing the boat.

I should note that both boats have reasonably small jibs, so ultimate force isn't too much of a problem. We do run a 2-1 sheeting system on the Melges Jib.

Noah

[ahp]

There is another detail concerning the number of turns on the winch drum. These beautifully polished chrome plated winch drums can be a pain. Unless you have 3-4 turns, the rope slips. A rough drum requires less turns. This can turn into an interesting homework assignment for students in engineering mechanics.

[Matt Middleton]

Sorry for the confusion- neither foresail is boomed. I was meaning to describe the main boom- it doesn't follow the foot of the sail, but is more or less perpendicular to the mast. Maybe I can draw a "pitcher"... (over to my advanced illustration creation program...)

All righty, I'm back- (Caution: drawing not to scale.) Watch out Todd Bradshaw! :D

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pdc4a6e5cce9ac178cf770b964dff6574/fcadece9.gif

Can everyone see that? If so, it's the main boom, where it extends forward of the mast, that I have a problem with the staysail fouling during a tack.

BTW, what would you call this rig (yes, the mizzen is forward of the rudder post, which is not drawn but hangs on the transom.) :confused:

Matt Middleton

[Ian McColgin]

The sketch helps.

A little hollow in the staysail's leech would have helped but it really should not tangle - doesn't on boats rigged similarly that I've sailed - so much as rub across. You may need a chafe patch on each side in time. Or does it somehow snag and stop in mid-tack?

Hard to say how big these sails are but the design is of a style meant to be easily handled and low tech low $$.

I'd be most inclinded to somehow club the staysail. More fun and better than a club along the foot would be a half wishbone going normal from the luff out to the clew. Like the camber spar but that's internal to the sail and this would be outside. Laminate some ash to take the camber - an air foil shape with the greatest depth of curve about 20% or so abaft the luff. Who cares if the spar "bends the wrong way" on one tack? With a spar, the forestaysail sheet need not be tended on each tack.

Second choise might be to run the foresail sheet to a 2:1 advantage. The sheet starts at the rail, up through a block and back to the rail and home to the cleat. This means two blocks dangling from the clew, which can be a major menace to someone's head at times but is not wierd - the Wianno Sr is rigged thusly. This gives you a forestaysail sheet that's easily handled without snubbing around the winch and leaves the winch dedicated to the slightly larger jib.

If it turns out that your essential first reef is to douse the jib and the mizzen, then you could of course use the winch for the forestaysail.

G'luck

[Matt Middleton]

Yes, low tech and low $$$- I think the masts and mainboom must be flagpoles?? They're tapered aluminum.

If the staysail/mainboom snagging thing is not common on this type of rig, it may be a result of a little overzealous string pulling on our part. Operator error is expected to be a source of some problems as we learn our way around.

Anyhow, I can imagine the 2:1 sheeting setup, and it would probably help a bunch.

I can also imagine the club/wishbone arrangement. But on the wishbone, what supports the forward end?

Any thoughts on what you'd call this rig, anybody?

Matt Middleton

[Ian McColgin]

The foreward end of the half whishbone spar lands on the stay between a couple of the staysail hanks. A bit of half round that's rigidly attached to the bowed spar and has a simple way of being closed off at the top and bottom, so it won't just fall off when not under tension, will keep the thing bowed out and not flopping. It's all pretty light - no big deal.

With any jib or staysail, you want to trim the sheet as the sail comes across but you don't want to pull too hard - that just backwinds the sail and slows your turn. Let god do the work here and you tag along for the ride. That should leave enough slack and flap in the leach that it will brush right past the sprit and snotter and all.

G'luck

[Concordia..41]

Matt

You may want to get a copy of “Royce’s Sailing Illustrated Volume 1”. IT has a lot of good illustrations. Page 59 has a good illustration of cockpit controls. It is a good book to have and only coasts $15.00.

It was one of the first books I picked up when I started sailing back in ????.

Dave

[Matt Middleton]

Thanks for the tip, Dave. I'm always up for another book to add to the library!

"back in ????" eh? :D

Later,
Matt