Help needed - topsides refastening

[carioca1232001]

The topsides planks on my 10 metre, 1962 twin-screw motor cruiser are secured to the frames with two screws. These are the original #12 1962 screws.

Some of these screws appear to be "leaching" through the putty (and paint) immediately over them.On removing the putty, a bluish-green pan-head comes to light.

What is the best thing to do, granted that the planks seem to be firmly attached to the frames ?

1. Remove the old screws and screw-in bronze screws one-size up. Some risk of damaging the planks while removing the old screws etc....

OR

2. Leave the old screws put, but treat their pan-heads with some sort of chemical (?) that would render them inert again. Finally smear them with new putty and paint.

OR

3. Proceed as in 2 above, PLUS screw-in a new bronze screw right beside the old screw.

BTW, the replanking/refastening of the undersides has just been concluded.

Thanks

[cbob]

C, Take out a random few for examinatiun/ evaluation, and you may think refastening is not in order. WB has an article a while back on refastening and how to minimize damage during removal. You may be able to use the same size screws, and if necessary, go up just one bung size. Happy Holidays, cbob

[Bob Cleek]

Well, if it's bluish green on the heads, it is likely bronze. If the fastenings are holding, LEAVE THEM ALONE! I'd sand back to the "bleeder" at bare wood and then treat it with penetrating epoxy and finish as always. Sometimes, this will take care of the problem. If not, well, older boats will "bleed" color from the fastenings and once the color gets into the wood, there isn't much you can do about it but paint the boat black! The real issue is whether the fastenings are still solid. All fastenings will corrode and leach color at some point, generally long before they are significantly weakened.

[carioca1232001]

Thanks CBob.

The topside planks SEEM to be tight , in comparison with the bottomside where screws were barely holding, planks sagging etc...

However, the wood around some screw heads SEEMS soft and wet to the touch, particularly where the overlying putty/paint is discoloured/deteriorated.

Could the topsides wood be undergoing electrolysis ?

If so, could this be due to SS screws installed in 1998 on the water-line ?

[carioca1232001]

Bob Cleek wrote:


The real issue is whether the fastenings are still solid. All fastenings will corrode and leach color at some point, generally long before they are significantly weakened. Interestingly enough, the (normally wet) bottomsides screws did not exhibit leaching nor was the adjoining wood soft and wet...but there were a lot of broken/deteriorated screw heads and screws that broke while being taken out.

[Roger Cumming]

Plank fastenings that break when removed, and deteriorated wood next to fastenings indicates fastening failure. If they are more than 25 years old they have reached the end of their useful life and should be replaced.

[carioca1232001]

Roger Cumming wrote:


....... If they are more than 25 years old they have reached the end of their useful life and should be replaced. Been bending my back over the last 3 months refastening/replanking the bottomsides.... some 3000 new screws + 8 square meters of new ipê ("e-pay")planking.

Will the tight/rigid bottom now transfer undue stress to the topsides, or can the latter wait safely for attention till 6 months hence ?

[cbob]

C, You bring up several issues, and somehow I'm unclear. I assumed your original topside fastenings were silbronze flat head #12 wood screws, but now you mention SS at the waterline, and before, panhead? The reason for refastening at 25 years, is so that there is enough screw left for ease of removal. The longer you wait the less integrity to the head, and shank at the planking interface, and of course this applies moreso to to the bottom planking, thus, pull some and take a look. Boats around here get refastened below the waterline in about 30 to 50 years, and most topsides never.
You mentioned paint and putty? I assumed that these original screw holes were propererly countersunk and bunged. If moisture can get around the countersunk area, as with putty rather than bunging, the wood there will soften.
I once knew some party boat owners, that were doing their pre season painting etc. A converted fantail, built for local Japanese, fine boats and quite common in the first part of the 20th century, built in the '20s, cedar on oak, nailed, INDIANA,
Anyway, they were hauled and wanted to paint the topsides, black, and it started to get rainy. To make their schedule, they took someones suggestion and used some waterbased or latex paint, black Kemtone? The job came out looking good, but next year for the same type haulout/painting, when they started cleaning and sanding, the topsides looked like smallpox, as the putty over the nailheads fell out. Aparently that paint had completely sealed the puttied over nail heads and the counterbores, in a year had become ugly rot craters,exposing the nail heads. It may have been that this was happening long before,who knows? That was about '57 and in '95 she was still afloat, barely, still with original nails. Her sistership is still now fishing out of Halfmoon Bay, Pillar Point. I dont know if she ever got renailed. cbob

[carioca1232001]

cbob wrote:


C, You bring up several issues, and somehow I'm unclear. I assumed your original topside fastenings were silbronze flat head #12 wood screws, but now you mention SS at the waterline, and before, panhead? Original topsides screws are silbronze panhead #12.

Some SS were installed in 1998 on the "wooden beading" that runs the length of the boat covering the topsides/bottomsides joint, to reinforce the same - don´t know the tech term for this piece (sheer ?). The greater part of this piece sits on/around the waterline, excepting where the said joint starts moving uphill in the bow area.


The reason for refastening at 25 years, is so that there is enough screw left for ease of removal. .... thus, pull some and take a look. Boats around here get refastened below the waterline in about 30 to 50 years, and most topsides never.Some bottomsides screws made for very hardwork at removal.

As I said before, topsides planking SEEMS to be firmly fitted to the frames.


You mentioned paint and putty? I assumed that these original screw holes were propererly countersunk and bunged. If moisture can get around the countersunk area, as with putty rather than bunging, the wood there will soften.The original screws (#8 bottomsides / #12 topsides)were not countersunk nor bunged. As the original planks are crafted from soft Amazon cedar, most screws got half-heartedly countersunk while being screwed-in (inertia ?), given the right depth of pilot-hole.

I countersunk and bunged all new screws (3000 odd!) during the bottomsides overhaul.


I once knew some party boat owners,......... ....but next year for the same type haulout/painting, ....the topsides looked like smallpox, as the putty over the nailheads fell out.....in a year had become ugly rot craters,exposing the nail heads......That was about '57 and in '95 she was still afloat, barely, still with original nails. Her sistership is still now fishing out of Halfmoon Bay, Pillar Point. I dont know if she ever got renailed. Now that does say something for doing the job right, viz.countersinking and bunging, while also suggesting that I may leave the topsides alone, at least until the summer season is over ! And my topsides look as if they have just contracted small-pox ....

Much obliged !

[carioca1232001]

Am posting some photographs of the old girl, so that you may see that she is worth taking care of !

http://www.imagestation.com/upload/index.html?dest=upload&ru=%2Falbum%2F%3Fid%3D2134189949&album_id=2134189949&continue. x=27&continue.y=14

[carioca1232001]

Hope it works this time :

http:///www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2134189949

[Stiletto]

Just a red cross for me.

Grant S

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

As others have already said, the real cure for bronze "weeping" through the paint is to properly countersink & bung the heads of the screws. (Not to mention you need a nice tight paint job- are there crack lines in the paint around the screw heads? The fasteners need oxygen to oxidize. Seal 'em tight and they'll behave.)

If, as you say, the planking is still nice and tight and you don't see any signs of rot, than depending on how big your trust fund is ;) you can consider some of the following options:

1. Do nothing/repaint annually.

2. Remove all the topside paint, remove the old putty, then re-putty with a more modern substance. (Some purists will wince at me, but thickened west system epoxy, marine bondo etc. will get the job done.) Fare the hull smooth and re-paint.

3. Remove topside paint. Reef out old seam putty & caulking. Throw in a new bronze fastening into each plank, and wince as you see how much the planks suck in. Then re-putty with a more modern substance. Fare the hull smooth and re-paint.

4. Remove topside paint, seam putty & caulking. Remove old bronze fasteners and re-fasten planking- this time countersinking and bunging as you go. Fare the hull smooth and re-paint.

5. Re-plank topsides with new planks, this time counter-sinking and bunging or what the hell, re-plank the whole boat.

6. Buy a new boat.

So, there you have several options to consider. If you're worried about damaging the planks while removing old putty/screws, a
forstner bit is a great way to go. (http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/default.php?cPath=269_270)
Don't be too shy- you'll end up slapping putty or epoxy back all over the hull anyway, and then several coats of paint. It's not the patch job, but the faring and sanding that will make the difference.

Good luck!

[carioca1232001]

Stiletto

Sony Image Station´s (SIS´s)real-time on-line HELP service confirmed that the URL (of my photo album on SIS) may not be disclosed on sites such as the WB Forum for all to see and visit. I suggested they contact WB to sort this out - wonder if they have ?

Do you (or whosoever) know the ropes for attaching photos with postings on the WB Forum ? I remember the photos have to be downloaded from a site such as SIS, as I have done this in the past ......

Sorry for the inconvenience.

[carioca1232001]

Cullen T M McGough,

Thank you for providing the 6 options...... will consider them once we are through summer.

My family is constantly repeating ...."all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" !