Why cedar & canvas on canoes only?

[MuddyFeet]

I've been doing a little reading on traditional cedar & canvas canoes such as these (http://www.wooden-canoes.com). The building technique evolved from birchbark-over-frame.

My question: Are there other small boats that use canvas over thin cedar planks on bent oak frames? Wouldn't canvas work nicely for small boats like William Garden's Tom Cat?

[Bob Cleek]

Sure there have been many. Lifeboats were done that way at times. The reason it isn't done much anymore, other than in canoes, is because painted canvas doesn't have the abrasion resistance of fabric and epoxy and is more difficult to apply than Dynel, for instance. Size is also a factor. IIRC, you can get canvas in 54" bolt widths, but that's about it. That will cover a canoe without a seam, but beyond that, you will have seams to contend with.

[Bruce Hooke]

Another issue may be that once you get up to a certain size the planks need to be thick enough anyway that a canvas covering is superfluous.

[Karl A. Hilbert]

Is it that wieght is a factor? Both canoes and lifeboats are carried at times during their use. Why build with canvas if the boat is not to be carried?

[Fitz]

Most cedar canvas canoes were not just covered with painted canvas. The canvas weave was filled with a filler containing lots of silica. This created a hard slate-like skin. The filled canvas was then painted. It was, and is durable.

The ribs on probably the majority of canoes (in the east at least) were white cedar. The planking is usually red cedar.

Maybe another issue is regarding boat construction is that beyond a certain size boat you'd be dealing with a unwieldy piece of fabric, and additional seams would be an issue :eek: .

For more information on cedar canvas canoes see http://www.wcha.org

Muddy Feet - Old Town, Penn Yan, and lots of other builders built small boats with canvas skin.

Also it is more like Frame-IN-Birchbark. Birch bark is formed in the shape of a canoe and the cedar planking and ribs are then inserted.

[ 12-20-2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Fitz ]

[ahp]

When I was a member of the University of Michigan Sailing Club we had a fleet of sailboats designed by the University of Michigan Navel Architecture Department. They were 11 ft LOA, had very thin planking, and thin bent ribs and every 6th rib was a sawn rib. They were canvas covered.

They were good little boats, and although they were not designed to plane, they would under the right conditions.

[MuddyFeet]

Interesting feedback, all.

Here's where I was going with this: Really small, unballasted boats such as the Tom Cat are often dry-sailed. The light weight and water-tight construction techniques used for canoes would seem to apply well to a small sailboat.

As Bob Cleek notes, dynel/epoxy has displaced the use of canvas in most craft, but folks still like to build and paddle traditional canvas canoes. If I were building Tom Cat, which I'm not (yet), I would think about using that technique.

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

the maintenance for canvas requires more work. you really have to keep up on the painting. with epoxy you get a bit more slack.

[Bruce Hooke]

I'd keep in mind that sailing puts a lot of different stresses on a boat, and most of these stresses get transfered to the hull in various ways. So, you need to be careful that your hull structure is able to stand up to these stresses...

[Bruce Hooke]

It seems to me that you also need to think carefully about whether the hull shape in question can be covered with canvas without resorting to cutting gores in the canvas or other similar complications. Long, narrow, canoe-shaped hulls are likely to work better than beamy hulls (like Cape Cod catboats).

[Todd Bradshaw]

I doubt that strength would be a big problem. Standard practice was to adjust the rib width, thickness and spacing as well as planking thickness and canvas weight to suit the job. This is what allowed companies like Chestnut to build some really big group paddling canoes and large motor-powered freight canoes. When you start looking at a 22' long, 5' or 6' wide canoe that will carry 5,000 lbs. and stand up to motoring, you had better have a strong construction method. Old Town built a 12' x 4' row/motor boat, a series of yacht-tender dinghies from 7.5' to 11.5' and a 16' x 44" peapod-like double ender up until about 1971, all using basic wood/canvas canoe-style construction.

If you assemble a bunch of wooden canoe nuts, 99% of them will testify that that the boat will last much longer with a canvas cover than something like Dynel or fiberglass. Repairability and restorability are much easier with canvas than with glued-on FRP coverings. The reason that there are so many nicely restored old wood/canvas canoes out there is that they can be repaired or restored piece-by-piece if needed and given a new waterproof skin.

I'm sure that there must be a point or boat size at which flat, steam-bent cedar ribs, nailed planking and a separate stretched canvas skin to make it all waterproof ceases to be economical or feasable when compared to plank on frame and other common wood building methods, but I suspect a boat like Tom Cat could be built that way.

Here are a few images of Old Town wood/canvas boats from a 1970 or 1971 catalog. Note that they were offering the boats with either a traditional filled canvas skin or FRP (I don't remember whether they were using fiberglass cloth or a different fabric back then) but the boats which have held up best over the years and the ones that restorers want to work on are generally the canvas-skinned variety.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid197/p6b17ed7a8ada4c2d6ec9d3b39fd7ccfc/f0facf0b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid197/pa99169d90f70fb14e0323e942ad5cb48/f0faceaa.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid197/p57913377befa190a60ee4a11216029cb/f0face53.jpg

[ 12-21-2005, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Thompson Bros. Boat Mfg. Co. made thousands of canvas covered row and motor boats in 12, 14 and 16 ft. lengths. They were in essence constructed the same as canvas canoes (which they also made). They made their last 12 ft. Take-Along canvas covered boat in 1962. These little guys weighed only 90 pounds.

I restored one a few years ago and sold it. I also grew up with one that was used and abused by the six Rhude boys. I remember purposly going out in storms in the thing and seeing how long it would take to swamp it! This was on Lake Michigan! What mother would allow her kids to do that today!

Oh, the family stills has that boat and it's being used by the third generation!

Andreas

[arabiansea]

Here is a dinghy built in that manner.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1926-Herrshoff-built-wood-dinghy-Elco-yacht-tender_W0QQitemZ4599271476QQcategoryZ26434QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[seo]

I've owned wood/canvas canoes (Old Town & Seliga) all my life, and have had four boats with canvas decks (Atkins Bluebird, Herreshof H-28, Nevins 40, 63' wooden powerboat).
Without using paste white lead as a filler it's hard to get canvas to come out well.
The last two decks I've done have been finished with fiberglass & polyester with a top coat of gelcoat that's been filled with silica. It's lighter, stronger, tougher, cheaper than canvas, and looks as good if done by someone who has a lot of practice.
I just did a cabin trunk top with dynel/epoxy, and wouldn't do that again except for covering a canoe or light boat. Too expensive, no real advantage over glass that I can see. People talk about the "abrasion resistance" of dynel, but for that to become a factor you have to have worn away the top coating, and have defeated your purpose already.
Gelcoat thickened with silica is very very hard stuff, good abrasion resistance right on the surface where you need it.
seo

[WindHawk]

"...six Ruhde boys" :D

Why, I bet they grew up to be gentlemen. ;)

[MuddyFeet]

Fascinating ... thanks for the high-quality comments. I learn so much here.

[Dan Lindberg]

seo,

Do you still have your Seliga canoe?
And do you know what S/N it is/was?
And did you buy it directly from Joe or other?

I have been working with Joe for some time trying to document his build record.

Any info you can give would be useful.

Also, are you aware that Joe passed away this past Sun AM?

Dan

[seo]

Hi Dan,
No, I don't have the Seliga anymore, and I don't know what the # was. I bought it at a garage sale at Grand Rapids MN in 1972, so it hadn't travelled far. It was supposed to have been built around 1965, and was a lot like an Old Town Guide. I went to Camp Widgiwagen in 1966 or so, and paddled lots of Seligas there.
They were nice boats, maybe not as carefully finished as an Old Town, which was about the only other game in Minnesota. I don't think I ever saw a White canoe before moving to Maine in 1979.
seo

[Dan Lindberg]

Thanks seo,

Not a lot to follow up with but I'll add your comments to my record. Maybe some day they will match up with a canoe.

Do you know if it could have been a retired camp canoe? Prior to '72, most of Joe's boats went to the camps, I'm guessing at maybe 80%? And in fact, from '64 to '67, there are only 5 canoes sold to private parties that might have been resold.

Dan

[Dan McCosh]

Pen Yan made lots of small dinghies, etc. using this kind of construction. The advantage was mainly ease of dry-sailing or launching. We used to have one, and peeled the canvas while towing it too fast.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

We six Rhude boys all grew up. Calling us "gentlemen" might be a stretch, however!

Our big boat was originally called "My 5 Sons" when obtained in early 1965 (I am number 5). When child number 6 was approaching two years later, I wonder what the parents thought. Luckily it was another boy, so the only change to the boat name was the digit. "My 6 Sons," too, is still in the family and being used by the third generation!

She is a 1964 T & T Boats, Inc. outboard lapstrake speed boat of 18 ft. length. T & T was a Thompson spin-off.

Andreas

[Chris Stewart]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
IIRC, you can get canvas in 54" bolt widths, but that's about it. A good artists' supply shop will have much wider bolts. For example, Pearl Paint sells unprimed #10 cotton duck up to 120 inches wide, and #12 at up to 144 inches wide. Both weights are used for wood and canvas canoes.

[Karl A. Hilbert]

Found these canvas filler recipes at the site Fitz suggested.

Canvas Fillers (http://www.wcha.org/tidbits/filler.html)

[seo]

"Silica" is commonly available in two forms. One is the silica filler for epoxy and other glues commonly called "cabosil" Gougeon and other glue vendors sell it. Fiberglass shops have it around in big bags.
DON'T BREATH THE DUST. Causes silicosis, emphesema, a short and miserable old age, etc.
"Silica" was also used all the time for sandblasting, and was available in finely graded sizes. Also caused silicosis, and has been widely supplanted by "black beauty," which is a sharp ground-up slag from steel mills (I think). I wonder where we'll get it from when all the steel mills close...China, I guess. I get silica in fifty pound sacks from a friend in the tombstone business. They sandblast the letters and shapes into the stone using silica, and have it around.
"White lead" (or red lead/lead oxide) used to be available in powdered dry form or as paste or paint. I have no idea where you'd get dry powder from. Pettit stopped making red lead paint a while ago, I think. Last I heard Kirby Paint in (New Bedford?) still made it, but didn't ship it. So you'd have to drive to the plant.
DON'T EAT IT. Don't eat the chips or the dust. Causes brain damage. Not good for the neighbor kids, or your kids.
I have used gallons of red lead for priming wooden structural parts in hulls, particularly end grain of plank butts and backbone parts. We would always have a gallon can of red lead open, with a permanent brush next to it kept soft by being dunked in a can of water. The brush had a chemical glove sort of molded to the handle so that you slid your hand into the glove as you picked up the brush. Last thing on Friday was to pour a half-inch of water on top of the red lead to keep it from skinning over.
On other jobs I've used "Pettit Rust-Lok Steel Primer" Or Interlux Silver Primacon (not as good). I think the Rust Lok is as good a primer/sealer as red lead, but it is a terrible nuisance to deal with. Dries like crazy, can't be cleaned up, expensive etc, etc.
For interior use sealing end grain I think there's a lot to be said for thick shellac. Non-toxic, easily cleaned up, looks good. Any material that can be thinned with Vodka can't be all bad.
seo

[seo]

SELIGA CANOE
My guess is that the Seliga in question came from the Boy Scout canoe camp near Ely. Its original color was Old Town green, which pretty much means it wasn't a Widgi boat.
seo

[Three Cedars]

Chris Stewart provided the link below. It has a some photos of a canvas covered boat without the planking... looks quick to build.

http://www.natmus.gl/en/maanhi/oktober/body_oktober.html

[peter osberg]

My first post at this site ..... but I have to say the main reason for thin cedar planking and waterproof fabric covering is that it makes a boat light, portable and repairable; having ribs planking and fabric work independantly makes it flexible which is a benefit in a canoe but not as a sailboat (or high power planning hull) which begs for more hull rigidity(and wieght) particularly as the boat gets bigger. The aircraft industry has done interesting work with materials and their degradation, using their fabric technology can save another 30-40% in wieght over canvas and assorted fillers yet remain more bulletproof to abrasion and damage (personal testimonial).