Colvin schooner site

[TomF]

Ran across this great website describing one man's experience with two Tom Colvin steel schooners - one lost in a gale, and the one he bought later. While made of the "other stuff" (as Ian recently put it on another thread), thought people would enjoy looking.

schooners Orbit II and Rosemary Ruth (http://www.issuma.com/rhudson/)

[Alan D. Hyde]

A good link, Tom.

Thank you for posting it.

Those who haven't had a look--- it's well worth your while. Ian, there are some matters there that will likely interest you...

Alan

http://www.issuma.com/rhudson/RR/images/2005MayorsCupLenSmetonaPic.jpg

[Doug Wood]

...and for those interested in schooners, here's a fun site (http://www.amschooner.org/) to explore.

[TomF]

I exchanged emails this week with Richard Hudson, the owner of those two schooners. We talked about the differences he'd found in the two models - the Orbit II (a "Tamarack" design, with a transom and relatively bluff bow) and the Rosemary Ruth (a "Yin Yang" design Pinky). I referred to some comments that Roger Long had made http://http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=13577 in an earlier thread about the sailing qualities of pinkies and Lubec boats, and asked Richard what he'd thought.

Richard graciously agreed to let me post what we wrote.

Tom Fetter:
First, let me thank you for documenting your various experiences with Colvin schooners. I've been fascinated by schooners forever, and have been reading up on Colvin's steel schooners now for a couple of years, fuelling my own dreaming.
Finding your site was truly fortuitous ... in my head I've been going back and forth in my mind about the relative merits of basically the two boats you document. I'd heard that pinkies, while supremely seaworthy, tended to heel more quickly than many, before settling in ... and that this can be a real issue for some people, as can the lack of deck space astern, at least for casual daysailing. I've also heard that pinkies in general can be pretty wet to sail.
On the other hand, the Tamarack design, and similar slightly larger transom-stern models (perhaps Colvin's 38' Doxy) offer perhaps better deckspace aft and more bearing to stand up to an initial breeze ... but I wonder how big the cost is in terms of comfort in a seaway and perhaps ultimate seakeeping ability. I dunno.
Roger Long, a respected commercial boat designer, pointed out in a web-forum discussion not long back that "seaworthy" means different things, depending on what your needs are. Pinkies evolved on the parts of the coast where folks would ultimately have to keep to the sea (running before it) in a bad gale, while boats with harder bilges and more bearing like the Friendship Sloops developed where folks' storm strategy would be more likely to sail to windward and reach a safe harbour. The hull shapes were equally "seaworthy," but the Pinky wouldn't make as good forward progress sailing in "ultimate" conditions, as its slack bilges are less able to stand up to its rig - though they contributed to a much easier motion. The pink stern also gave less likelihood when running that the wake would cause a following wave to break. On the other hand, a seaworthy harder-bilged design with a transom (Friendship sloop, Gloucester Sloop Boat etc.) might stand up and sail better, but have more tendency to trip over itself if running before awful conditions, and capsize.
What's been your experience, comparing the two designs? How about the more everyday issues ... I wonder about whether the amount of space in the pinky is really any greater than in the Tamarack, thanks to the loss of volume from the pink stern ...
Finally, how do they each feel, when sailing them? Which performs better for the average coastal-cruising conditions? Is there enough sail spread to move along well in lighter airs? Is one significantly more or less difficult to handle? I'm hoping to be able to start a building project on a design much like one of these (once a spate of house renovations are completed), and would really appreciate your comments to wrap into my decision process.
Thanks! And thanks again for posting so much on your website about both Orbit II, and Rosemary Ruth.
Tom Fetter

Richard Hudson:

Tom,
Glad to hear you liked my website.
The Colvin pinky has a lot less initial stability than the Tamarack, due to the slack bilges.
I don't think I've yet been in anything more than a F6-F7 (and the F7 was in somewhat sheltered water) with the pinky, so don't yet have a good idea how she is in rough weather.
I expect RR (the pinky) to be nuch better running in seas...the Tamarack
(Orbit) stern did tend to get pushed around a lot when running in 10foot and higher seas.
I do notice the pinky is somewhat smaller than Orbit was. For daysailing, the pinked stern hasn't been a problem (I had 15 people aboard RR once, but would only do that in very light winds...not enough places for people to cross over to the other side when tacking).
Orbit had a big double bed in the aft cabin, which was nicer than the much-narrower convertible doubleberth that RR has.
RR does sail better than Orbit did. Orbit definitely heeled less, but had a bluff bow that would really get stopped by waves when sailing to windward. If I recall correctly, Orbit made good about 65-70 degrees to the wind when beating in the open sea, fully loaded, F5-F7. RR hasn't really been to sea yet, or sailed when loaded for a long passage, but feels like she will do much better.
I don't find the pinky a wet boat, but she is currently underballasted, and hasn't been driven hard enough to definitively judge wetness.
Interesting what you said about Roger Long's comments. If you have a link, please send it. I never thought of Friendship sloops as seaworthy (because I've always seen them with huge cockpits), but perhaps that is just the yacht version....I don't know much about Friendship sloops.
RR has a little more sail area, I think. She is much easier to sail in coastal or harbor conditions because she has no springstay to prevent tacking the fisherman (orbit had to lower the fisherman each time she tacked). I might add a springstay before doing an ocean crossing, just for better support, though.
RR has no forestaysail, which makes sailing in light and moderate conditions easier. At sea, the jib and forestaysail combo is probably easier to deal with (drop the jib when the wind picks up, instead of drop-reef-set it).
Orbit always had a problem with weather helm until I got a new main which was 1.5 feet shorter on the foot and 1 foot shorter on the luff.
I raised the boom accordingly, and then had both better visibility steering and a more balanced boat.
Tom Colvin had suggested I deal with weather helm by moving weight around, but I didn't have any convenient weights to move, so went for a smaller main instead.
I think a Doxy would make a great liveaboard cruiser. It is slightly on the big side for me (judged by how heavy ground tackle I can handle without a powered winch), though.
Hope this helps. If you are ever in NYC, drop by and have a look at RR.
Good luck with your plans.

Richard