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Tom Lathrop
11-16-2002, 10:01 AM
I have watched the AC since they started televising the matches. One thing stands out above all others. Most all of the matches are boring - boring - boring to watch. Now, Perth, that was not boring because of the constant struggle with the weather to make things interesting and that bad things could happen to the boat in the lead.

My son told me about a new system of match racing that might restore some real interest to hours of tedium watching a slightly slower boat not having any chance. That is, to run three boats in each race and award one point to the winner, nothing to the other two. None of this sitting on the other boat and driving them to the bad side of the course.

I can't find anything wrong with this scenario. Of course the defender will never accept it if they are in control because it would greatly decrease their chance of repeating.

Not to belittle the skill of the current winners, it should bring the crew back into the race on a more even level with money and the technology.

Tar Devil
11-16-2002, 10:16 AM
I've enjoyed several matches between Alinghi and Prada, and also Oracle and Oneworld. Otherwise, I'd have to agree that the races aren't as exciting this year.

I haven't see any opinions yet about the challengers' performance compared to New Zealand. Anyone know?

Later,

Phil

Greg H
11-16-2002, 10:20 AM
I'm just happy they are on TV smile.gif

I like the three boat idea. For that matter, lets have them all out there together, for the initial rounds.

Wild Wassa
11-16-2002, 05:04 PM
Tom, It only seems to be a windshift or broken gear that determines a result in these hi-tech races. There's been a lot of straight line sprinting. Watching yachting is waiting for one descisive moment or none.

Warren.

ps, I read your site Tom, when I first came to WBF. While I was wondering why people wanted to preserve old wooden boats, I found your site. I can now cite a few reasons, .... I saw a Windmill's yardstick. I hope you are sailing well.

adampet
11-16-2002, 06:18 PM
I have to diasagree about the boring part. :( While the races may be determined at the start and first leg, those five minutes of prestart are amazing boat handling. Watching the very best crews in boats that are very close to each other is great. Match racing takes very specific skill that are really highlighted here. And yes things can change with one mistake by the lead boat, but these crews are so good it rarely happens, or when it does happen, in the case of OneWorlds spinaker pole the other day, the crews can recover amazingly quickly.

Does this mean I'm the only one who's enjoying the Cup racing?

Wild Wassa
11-16-2002, 06:52 PM
I'm certainly enjoying thr LVC. I'll watch for two hours just to see one small happening. Then I'll replay it to see it again, :cool: .

Warren.

[ 11-16-2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Tom Lathrop
11-16-2002, 09:28 PM
I didn't mean to imply that there is nothing of interest in the races. After all I'm still watching. The five minutes before the start is certainly exciting but mainly because of the work of the afterguard, not the designers and the technology. After the first cross, the race is dominated by covering tactics of the leading boat, not in itself uninteresting if it did not take up 95% of the race.

Having been involved in a fair share of races, I think that is boring, even for the participants. Much of the decision making and consequent action that takes place in a normal race is totally lacking because of the absence of any other competitors.

Just heard that todays races are cancelled due to too much wind - bummer.

Wild man, the Windmill is a great boat that can be built fully competitive by a home builder in wood. I am getting a bit long in the tooth for hiking out in a lively boat like that though (71) but can get still get in an occasional local race. Have to be content with the vicarious spectator role mostly now and wooden boats to my design were 2nd and 3rd in the nationals this year, completely surrounded by F#@*%^&$%ss models.

john welsford
11-17-2002, 03:42 AM
Last AC series Denny and I had the entormous privelege of an invite out on North Star the commentators boat that follows the races up and down the course. You'll see her in some of the shots, about 60ft of two decker power cat. Superb viewing platform, and to have been that close to the action ( the race was Young America v/s the French, Le Defi won! You should have heard the racket aboard North Star which had mostly American passengers aboard that day) has given us a feeling of huge excitement even when just sitting in front of the box. Those boats are unbelieveable!

As to how well Team NZ compares? a very few of the TNZ top management might have an idea, but they are not saying a word, just smile and say that they are very pleased with both of the new boats and change the subject.
Lots of headgames going on here.
In a couple of weeks I'm taking Huffboat up to the Americas Cup base and will spend the day in the boat cruising around the bases with a camera and sketch pad. Should be fun.

JohnW


Originally posted by Tom Lathrop:
I have watched the AC since they started televising the matches. One thing stands out above all others. Most all of the matches are boring - boring - boring to watch. Now, Perth, that was not boring because of the constant struggle with the weather to make things interesting and that bad things could happen to the boat in the lead.

My son told me about a new system of match racing that might restore some real interest to hours of tedium watching a slightly slower boat not having any chance. That is, to run three boats in each race and award one point to the winner, nothing to the other two. None of this sitting on the other boat and driving them to the bad side of the course.

I can't find anything wrong with this scenario. Of course the defender will never accept it if they are in control because it would greatly decrease their chance of repeating.

Not to belittle the skill of the current winners, it should bring the crew back into the race on a more even level with money and the technology.

John E Hardiman
11-17-2002, 11:21 AM
Tom, you may missed the point of the races. They are a fair method to allow an inferior boat a chance to win like RAINBOW over ENDEAVOR or S&S over AMERICA3 womans team. Otherwise, you might as well watch golf or archery or drag racing, "sports" that have been so radically changed by technology that you win not by doing good, but win by making fewer mistakes, and people watch to see the mistakes. In the perfect condition of constant weather, and indentical crews and boats; the boat that enters the box on starboard should win. The only thing that alters this is either a mistake or a gear failure.

But the AC IS about the differences in boats. In '91 I was in San Diego and watched AMERICA2 in a defender trials against S&S. A2 just avoided S&S the entire start, crossed late, just walked over S&S on the first leg to leeward. Led by 30 seconds at the first mark, and just keep opening. They totaly domindated the race. A2 went on to defend and win, and that was right and proper. If the races bore you think about an AC where everybody just sent in their VPP data and the winner was declared after running suitable simulations tongue.gif .

There was a supposed quote by Sir Thomas Lipton. When asked by a society matron at a party if the Americans were putting something in the water to make him lose, he replied "Yes ma'am, a better boat!".

John B
11-17-2002, 02:58 PM
It's just the warm ups Tom.
There's no wind limit in the cup proper. I must admit , I can't figure out the logic in LV sailing the races in up to 19 kts. Certainly, in Feb we should have more consistent and lighter weather in general. But in general, you can't trust Auckland weather to be consistent.LOL.

I tell you what is exciting. That's seeing the things go . Because they are bigger than you expect( model yacht proportions blown up) and they go so fast in no wind, and point so high, the impact they have in the flesh is much greater. A bit like motor racing in some respects.( no motor noise on TV) There's a real atmosphere about them.

[ 11-17-2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

Tom Lathrop
11-17-2002, 06:08 PM
John, I think I know the point of the races, but could not understand your points. As Cool Hand Luke's prison guard would say, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Since I have been following these races, and the changes in rules, technology and exponential expenditure of effort and money on them since they cranked up back up in 1958, I feel that I have a valid perspective on them. Maybe we don't agree, but that is OK.

I will certainly agree that the boats themselves are anything but boring. I was sailing aboard a friends 40 footer (built in NZ, by the way) in San Francisco Bay last September when we encountered an AC boat with the NZL logo on the mainsail. While it seemed to be making no fuss at all, they just sailed away from us at far greater speed. That is to be expected but the power of the thing was apparent and it must be a kick to be aboard.

I've sailed aboard Bill Lee's "Merlin", crawled over BOC and Volvo boats and been among them at the start of their round the world races and am properly impressed with all these boats. I still say that the Cup races are essentially boring to the spectator and could be made much more exciting.

John B
11-17-2002, 06:29 PM
Fair enough Tom.
What I meant with the motor racing analogy is just that the impact in the flesh is much more that translates on TV. Also , like motor racing( my wife says " why do you watch that stuff,... they just go around and around"LOL) you get into a rhythm with it , you start to notice the small things and the strategy and then something happens. I can't watch all the cup races end to end . too many of them are unequal and you know who's going to win.
Then something exciting does happen. A fireball like Dickson gets involved. Prada surfing up on Alinghi , great TV shots( and hitting them in the end) Raised voices on Alinghi for the first time. It's starting to get that extra edge it's been missing till now.

incidentally,I was driving to the boat on Saturday and a bow drove past.Yup... a bow on a truck. It was covered on the news that night. Prada dropped out of the last race and handed the win to Alinghi so they have time to fit ANOTHER new bow.

Do you get the Virtual Spectator in your coverage? It's not always bang on accurate but it's pretty good. That makes a difference IMO.

Q.Foster
11-17-2002, 09:38 PM
Virtual Spectator is great! and worth the $24.

The mark roundings, seen from a virtual helm position, or an aerial view, are really exciting on the screen. VMG and velocity readout may not be so accurate, but it is as exciting as a sailboat video game. 10.5 knots, 12 knots!

I watch two races at once whenever I can, close to real time. Photos pop up, wind direction changes, boats cross each other, hold high, fetch the mark, slam dunk one another....it is fun stuff on a rainy November night.
Alinghe and Oracle's roundings are dramatic sailing. Check it out!

Wild Wassa
11-18-2002, 03:55 AM
Tom, Thanks, I think you can be pleased with the results. They must be nice boats, congratulations.

VS is only what it is. An approximation?

The yacht trails are interesting. I like the way the boats sail to the wind rather than against each other when the opportunity is there to be sailors rather than meteorologists.

Warren.

ps, Sometimes the wind isn't there, yet the Skippers persue the lost tack. Even Blind Freddy knows when to tack .... back.

[ 11-18-2002, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John B
11-18-2002, 02:40 PM
I'd hate to have Virtual Spectator track me on Waione.
" what the H is he DOING" shouts the world.

PS it's not going to be boring this afternoon says the newsman.

[ 11-18-2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

John R - Kitenui
11-20-2002, 01:17 AM
BORING ??
You guys should really be here to see the most awesome power of these machines. They are absolutely phenomenal.
Boring ??
I'm hoping that the finals are as boring as the last two sets
5 zip --- yet again :cool:

adampet
11-20-2002, 05:27 PM
Virtual Spectator won't run on my machine :( a Mac. I'm not sure I'd pony up the $ anyway. Hard to figure out who to root for . I like Dennis( a scoundrel, but OUR scoundrel). I've also got to root for Oracle, ( my brother's yacht club)
I'd love to be 17th man sometime. Hangout in the catbird seat :cool:

Wild Wassa
11-20-2002, 06:16 PM
Virtual Spectator is one of the best gift anyone has ever given me, I had no idea VS was so good.

If you like Virtual Spectator (VS), you will enjoy Virtual Skipper (VSK). A top program for practicing race starts, I find. Team NZ use Virtual Skipper, so does Assa Abloy. On race days I have an hour or two, of starting practice with Virtual Skipper, before the race. I like the starts best. Starts make or break boat races. I'm not preaching to the converted by the way, :D .

Warren.

[ 11-20-2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

John B
11-20-2002, 08:50 PM
John R eh. sneaking on in without even a howareya doing.
Tell me Johnny me boy, is it true that a rogue wave came along a few weeks ago,entered the wet weather gear somewhere around the manly chest mark and filled your boots up and wet everything else between.?

Wild Dingo
11-27-2002, 12:16 AM
Bloody ell mates!!! dont go sobbin in yer tea over the AC being boring! :rolleyes: ... I tell yer even the TV programmers here in West Aussie find it BORING! :eek: ... so boring in fact they have shown absoflaminlutely NOTHING at all... nothing narda zip... I only know what you fellas are telling me! not that it really bothers me cause I also find it rather tedious and boring for the most part... sigh but hey thats just me ;)

Personally? I much far and away prefer the Sydney to Hobart from a spectator point of view :cool: ... thats of course if the flamin ruddy programmers remember to televize the thing!!... more often than not we get the start yeeeeha!!!... then nothing... then the buggars remember us and show the end... yay whoopdeedoo! sigh yawn... but we miss all the flamin action out there where its all hard going...

Wouldnt mind tryin to get me a berth on one of them boats... :D :cool: be a real hoot... well maybe not but talk about a rush!!! :cool:

We have narda on sailing on the 4 TV channels we have here... and beleive me satellite is way way to bleeding expensive and cable around here is simply non existant... member here I am in West Aussie mates... 10 years behind East Coast and 20 years behind yous fellas over in the US and Europe... so we gotta put up with these football crazed zoobs of programmers... :(

But what the hell? Ive got the best bunch of commentators right here... now if we can just convince that young whippersnapper Scot or Matt to put a link through to the forum I could come here have a yarn with me mates and watch it right here with you fellas... no worries eh? {insert one of the smilie cool thingys here mates I aint got Joes privaliges or contacts!! cheeky flamin galah!}

Take it easy
Shane

Wild Wassa
11-27-2002, 01:14 PM
Dingo, This is what stops the LVC from becoming boring, for me. In knowing that, in just a simple call for buoyroom that Rules 10, 11 and 12 apply, Rule 13 applies while tacking, also Rule 17, 17.1 sailing your proper course, Rule C2.5 deletes Rule 17.2. Rule C2.4 I interpret as deliberately dropping the mainsail to gain an overlap, :rolleyes: . Then finish with Rule 18.2 as your last point of certainty. ;)

Good to see you back Dingo.

Warren.

ps, Its burning towards Yass tonight, 60ks to the NW. The colour of the sky is subtle. Nice colour though.

[ 11-27-2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Wild Dingo
11-27-2002, 01:22 PM
eeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyewwwwwwwww as 12 year old Bethany would say!!! way way waaaaay to much info at this time of night morning mate! :eek: :D

Color of the sky??... mmmmm here its what? 2.13am over there its gotta be what? 3.30 - 4am??... and your skys got color??!!... mines this really nice subtle shade of.... eeeerrr black? :rolleyes:

Take it easy
Shane

ooooh and mate?... good to be back :cool:

[ 11-27-2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

Wild Wassa
11-27-2002, 01:31 PM
I wouldn't have seen the sky if I hadn't been studying the LVC.

Dingo one also needs to know the rules before one knows what penalties to push. Not much tight racing at the moment, hardly boring, wondering why. More sprinting than match racing, is how I see it.

The starts are amazing. I try to dial-up in my dinghy, it's dialing up not being in irons. I've also been fascinated at the lack of penalties. The numbers of calls for penalties from the boats that are turned down is staggering (from the official site). Too few naughty things happening on the course ... for my style of racing.

Warren.

[ 11-28-2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Don W
11-27-2002, 09:35 PM
The boats are impressive.
Sailing fast is a skill unknown to many.
But watching sailing on T.V. - as the philosopher G. Carlin once said, "I'd rather watch flies f***".

Hans Friedel
11-28-2002, 04:10 PM
Darn

We broke our spinacker pole. This is problably the closest we get

Hans

CReid
11-29-2002, 02:01 AM
Just a thought. But why doesnt someone (or have they) start a wood only race? There is plenty of rationale for this. They dont allow multihulls to race against monohulls after all. It would evolve into either oneoff wooden boats which is fine. Or a circuit of boat races all over the world with boat owners of all stripes entering bringing the whole community together And making sailing more popular (when the average person can at least aspire to do somethign he is a lot more interested). The media would love it for show if nothing else. I KNOW you guys would love it.

Or a race designed to test the boats in more than perfect weather. The AC doesnt catch on with average people because they see it for what it is. A Yachtbuilding competition among the ultrarich. These boats are built oneoff for prices in the millions for one race in certain conditions. You get them out of those conditions they break like eggshells. A race across the north sea perhaps. Count that as half the race. The next half is the top four or so finishers in a short traditional AC race. The first part you can beam to the web with crew interviews etc for those interested. The second televised like the AC. The designers would have to start building oceangoing boats fit for more than one days racing then retirement to a dock somewhere as some tycoons showpiece. My big gripe about the big designers now is all of them build for people with bottomless pockets. Some of them are beautiful creative boats but on average they are million dollar gold and plastic monstrosities to show off the owners pocketbook.

The reason i think this would be more exciting is the boats would begin to have a Huge effect on the tech in an average sailboat. Auto racing is used to advance the technology as it applies to consumer cars. You wouldnt have antilock breaks, the emissions tech we have, the fuel economy, the power to weight ratios, turbos, etc etc on road cars if it werent for auto racing. They use restrictor plates so the cars cant just pump more and more fuel through the engine etc etc and its had a HUGE effect.

Its just that i would have a lot more respect for a boat built to really be an oceangoing sailboat.
And i can just imagine how exciting to actually be able to see some of you guys out sailing in some international tourney then coming to the boards and talking about it smile.gif

(Of course anytime one of the FRP left a woody sitting or say.. the woodie did one of the things we complain about frp for we'd have lots of excuses prepared in advance hehe)

martin schulz
11-29-2002, 03:30 AM
There is a world-championship competition in the 12mR class. and as far as I know they do have it splitted in woodies and that-other-material-I won't-talk-about.

In the Flensburg Bay the german navy owns 2 A&R built 12mR Yachts who regulary take part in those races (the navy didn't let them go to the Americas Cup Jubilee last year).

Anybody know more?