Here we go again

[Dan Hall]

I'm afraid I'm loosing my mind but SWMBO is making me do this. Of course she has never lived on a boat, how would she know? We are retiring and if we don't do this now we never will. That is the prime motivator. I expect we'll cruise for 5=10 years. We got just enouth money to pull off this sort of boat, and have a comfortable monthly cruising income. By way of preface, I'm quite gifted mechanically and electronically and moderatly average + in the woodworking department. I'm also exceptionally lazy. Anyway:

"Magic" is at Yachtworld.com. Search for Trumpy and 50'

1) Does anywon know a 1st class wooden boat surveyor in San Francisco?
2) I hate arbol on sheet metal joints because it's so hideiously messy but maybe this is a plus. Anyone know (from experience) about this stuff on plywood decks?
3) For a variety of reasons a slobbering Detroit is close to my last choice in marine power because of the direct loss oil lubrication system and noise. On the other hand they go forever. Who's got one in a boat and has nice things to say?
4) We have a tremendous amount to learn about all of this and my knees are knocking. Magic has a fore rudder so that backing is easier. Right. Does anyone know if this sort of rudder has enough power to overcome prop walk? Maybe re-power with a Hundstead? A bow thruster seems like a possibility but I would think that a stern thruster might be more usefull. I dunno.
5) We won't be paying full nickle for this boat because we know a thing or two about her history and we are plain Scotch thrifty. Do the Grand Banks Alaskans make more sense? I don't know if I've ever seen a nice one in this price range but as the saying goes money talks and BS walks.
6) We have two large dogs. That's the part that I just can't get my head around. We also have 6 Saturdays a week. Lot's of time for long walkies.

Enough of questions. Take on all of them or one.

Thanks

[Bob Cleek]

Boy, don't expect anybody to give you any advice on whether you ought to live aboard a boat and go cruising as a retirement plan. Only you can make that decision. However, if I were you, I'd rent a boat and try it for a few months (and maybe the better part of a winter.) It would be a real shame if you plunked a bunch of money and effort into a boat and found you (or your dearly beloved) hated it.

That said, I'll give you what I know. The best wooden boat surveyor for my money in the SF Bay area is Kent Parker. He's listed in the Marin phone book. He's in San Rafael, I believe. He also advertises in Latitude 38, or used to. Kent will not blow any smoke up your butt.

Arabol and "yellow jacket" on plywood decks is a stop-gap measure once used on working boats. It will promote rot if water gets under it, which it will. Probably had rot or deck fastening problems to begin with, which is why they Arabol-ed it. It is a bugger to remove because it is just soft enough to be impossible to sand and I don't think heat or chemicals will soften it. Arabol was a milk-derived heat resistant lagging adhesive used back when pipes were covered with asbestos. I suppose when the asbestos went south, so did Arabol. It was made by Borden's Dairy Co. They no longer make it and nobody has found a replacement for its use with "yellow jacket" as a deck covering. Thus, you will not even be able to recoat your decks when they need it, which the probably do, given as how long the stuff's been unobtainable.

I'd say that a "bow rudder" is a good indication that there's problems with steering that somebody tried to overcome. What happens to your steering ability when that "bow rudder" hits something when you go aground? As for a thruster, I really don't think a decent 50' boat should require that kind of equipment, although I know they are something of a fad these days.

Whether this boat or a Grand Banks (or similar "Tiawan Turkey" knockoff) is the better option only you can tell. I'd say, however, that a Grand Banks in that size range in decent shape would be a better investment given resale values. And the newer boat is likely to have more life left in it.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but however mechanically gifted you may be, an older fifty foot boat is often more than one human can properly maintain in constant use while cruising and living aboard. I'd have my doubts unless your mechanical experience includes a whole lot of marine work, which you admit it doesn't. Of greater concern is that you mention you have "just enough" money to pull this dream off. "Just enough," particularly in this size range of boat, is NEVER enough. All it would take to utterly destroy your hopes and dreams would be a single repair that broke your "just enough" budget. Those sort of repairs in older boats which are worked hard continually cruising and being lived aboard come a lot more often that you may imagine.

You may find that getting a smaller coastal cruising boat that you can take out when you feel like it, while living ashore, will give you and SWMBO a lot more satisfaction without the risk of it becoming a nightmare. Never get into more boat than you can afford to lose!

[WoodenBNut]

One of the best know and respected wooden boat repair shops around (and they repair a lot of wooden Trumpys) is Moores Marine in Riviera Beach, Fl. - www.woodenboatrepair.com (http://www.woodenboatrepair.com) . I know that is not near California, but I would contact them anyway as they will probably talk talk to you and give you some good and valid advice on this boat. *They could also give you good info on surveyors in your area.
One drawback that I saw in the boat specs was the fact that it had only one engine. Have you ever piloted a boat this large with only one engine? I have had one engine and two engine boats (current boat), and two engine are defintely easier to control when docking, etc. Also, you always have a fall back power plant if one engine fails. I would think that would be very important on large bodies of water in the crusing that you plan on doing. It is difficult navigating with just one engine of a dual engine boat, but it is sure a heck of a lot better than no engines at all if your engine goes out on a single engine boat.
I would definitely talk to the Moore's Marine people - they are very knowledgable and very friendly business people would have been in the wooden boat repair business for a long time.

[redsail]

Don't buy more boat than you need!

[paladin]

..as in the above...are you planning on entertaining and having dozens of friends and relatives on board for an extended period of time? Go with a smaller boat.....about 36-38 feet if your into the trawler thing....the price really goes up with the larger boat where maintenance etc is concerned.

[Dan Hall]

Thanks, this is all great stuff:

I guess "just enough should be explained". While maintaining some degree of privacy; just enough to my way of thinking should be about 4 times the price of your boat in cash and a monthly stipend that covers ongoing expenses. One cruiser I know is spending $66 a day for everything doing the loop. I would think $100 to $150 a day would be close to our expectation.

I don't intend to buy a boat that will be worthless at the end of our cruise and the beginning of stage two retirement. "Magic" might be worthless now for all I know. The single engine is a pain in the rear on a Grand Banks 32. How much more so on a 35 tonner! Anyway, the more I look at that "salon" and think about making way against a head sea, rocking, rolling and pitching. What in the world are you going to hang onto? How often has this sucker been away from the dock? You're right I need to get SWMBO offshore in a typical 35K west coast summer afternoon. I'll guarantee one thing though, it won't be her getting seasick, the woman must have concrete cochlias methinks.

More boat than I need? Boy is that subjective. Stability increases as the cube (I think) of length? I've been off shore in a 27' and a 60'. I'll take the 60' thank you. It's the systems that eat you alive, not the hull size.

Anyway, gotta go to work now. Keep it up.

Dan

[JimD]

"Magic" is at Yachtworld.com. Search for Trumpy and 50' I took a quick look at Yachtworld, couldn't find 'Magic'. Got a link or pic?

[Donn]

<img src= "http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/3/5/3/5/1353543_1.jpg">

[Gresham CA]

Sweet looking ride.

[Dave Fleming]

Jes' some more thoughts...

That boat looks fine for use on the Bay and up the Delta.
Where else were you thinking of cruising?
Heading up or down coast needs careful attention to the weather patterns.
The Bay to Morro Bay is OK but, where south after that? Heading north which dog hole harbor would be your first choice?

2 read'em, 2 big dogs. Checked the marina pet rules up and down the coast?

When the spring and fall roll around here in San Diego the 'snowbirds' begin migrating. Don't see too many motor cruisers in that group, mostly sailing craft.

You might wish to check out Passagemaker magazine as well as any web sites for liveaboard cruising.

[Canoeyawl]

I have had good luck with lagging compound on plywood decks in new construction (20+years) if the plywood is still sound they should be fine. It is still available by the gallon from Svendsens marine in Alameda, Ca. and it seems the same as the old Borden’s stuff.
I think the Trumpys had steel fuel tanks and they are built in place, this has been reported to me as a huge problem. Problematic to remove and very expensive to replace; Check this carefully.
Detroit Diesels make bad bed partners… noisy, leaky, and stinky. However they are reliable and have been the engine of choice for small workboats for years! They are being phased out and becoming more problematic to repair.

[nedL]

Take a closer look at her listing. She was built by Trumpy as a navy launch which explains a lot. Her hull was built 'like a battleship', she would probably have originally been an open or mostly open boat, her original use explains the single two cycle diesel, two struts, & flanking rudder. (A flanking rudder is tucked up ABOVE the prop shaft, forward of the prop, most likely between the two struts. They were pretty common on military boats like this. I don't believe it is any indication of poor handling abilities. - There is probably less chance of damaging the flanking rudder than of damaging the main rudder FWIW.) If in good condition I don't think there is much to worry about on the hull from a design/construction stand point (proven design built to military specs by a top builder). I would have all the added tophamper checked out carefully & I'd want to see some stability calculations with all that added weight up pretty high. Just my .002 smile.gif

[ 06-28-2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[Nicholas Carey]

For what it's worth&hellip;

Aerobol is not longer made.

Childers (http://www.fosterproducts.com/static/childers_insulation.htm
) still makes essentially the same stuff:</font> Childers Chil-Seal CP50A MV1 (http://www.fosterproducts.com/Images/childers_tds/CP-50A_MV1.pdf)</font> Childers Chil-Seal CP-50A HV2 (http://www.fosterproducts.com/Images/childers_tds/CP-50A_HV2.pdf)
This is their "marine grade" lagging compound. It meets mil spec MIL-A-3316 and USCG specification 164.012.</font> Childers Chil-Lag CP-52 (http://www.fosterproducts.com/Images/childers_tds/cp-52.pdf)</font>

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Ballast, stabilizers, round bilged.... I betcha she rolls like a fat woman on martini's. ;) They've tried to take the snap out of her with the ballast and probably succeeded....She'd still make a landlubber sick in a sea I bet.

I can see why you'd fall in love with the layout, and she's a lot of boat for the money... which may mean a lot of work afterwards..

I wouldn't argue with the lifestyle choice if you both feel that way. I'm partial to your thinking myself. :cool:

[Dan Hall]

I spoke with a surveyor today who was recommended by someone here on the forum. I was pretty impressed. He suggested sea trials first, then survey. Never crossed my mind. Now that's refreshing that he cost himself some money if I don't care for her motion. Makes good sense. Made a customer out of me.

It's interesting to me that of the private e-mails I've received it's the folks that are doing it that are the most supportive. Ain't that odd. What is it Tom Colvin says: "There are sea-going Folks and then there are those shore bastards". One poor soul's marriage broke up under the strain of full time life aboard and that's sad. My heart goes out to him. One must have a fall back plan that doesn't include the quick sale of the boat. Some of the best advice so far is don't spend all your money buying the boat.
Now all I need is some time to go for a look see. There's a Grand Alaskan 53 too...

[patito]

Dan,

I hope you'll keep us informed. I'm interested in what you learn and decide upon. G'luck!

[Gary E]

For real world info on living aboard and extended travel, join this list, that's what they do.

http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

[Dan Hall]

Hello Patito and anyone else that might be following this thread. Here's some places to browse and get some education about the trawler life on wooden boats.

http://www.mv-dreamer.com

This is the site belonging to Bob Lowe and his wife. Bob had a Grand Banks rebuilding boat yard on Whidbey Island, WA until recently. He has closed or sold it now and is heading south for the cruising life in their American Marine Alaskan 45. I have not been able to track him down personally but his footprints are everywhere in the wooden trawler world.
On his site you'll find links to a PassageMaker magazine article on rebuilding GB trawlers among other very interesting stuff. There is also a link to a GB owner's forum.

http://www.gbwoodies.com

This site is home base for a whole lot of wooden trawler owners. Great pictures. More good info.

http://www.trawlerlife.com

A site where a couple of folks take you through their trials rebuilding a Alaskan 49.

Finally, the folks on the aformentioned forum on the samurai list manager are great. Though the focus is on plastic boats, these are the folks that are actually living the lifestyle.

I have spoken with a couple of wooden boat surveyors now. Both came recommended by people on this forum, and both are fairly well convinced that the American Marine Woodies were the best production wooden boats ever built and probably the best wooden boats currently available. This statement of course will probably cause a fuss here but what the heck, gotta keep the blood moving.

One of my main concerns with a wooden trawler has been the worry that the purchase money would disappear over time. What I am hearing though is that any depreciation occurred long ago. An Alaskan 49 for instance was base priced at $93K in 1971. They are currently listed for $180K-$249K. My sources tell me though, that it's a rare sale that goes that high, though it takes longer to sell them regardless of price.

Once a boat has been located and a price agreed to, it's time for the surveyor to do his stuff. Don't for heaven sake skimp on this step. The cost of repair is on the owner unless he stipulates he won't cover these costs. The survey deficiences then become part of his disclosure statement for the boat. This process is of course punishment for those who let a boat go far down. If he knows there are problems, best to know what they will cost going in and price the boat accordingly. For the buyer (IMHO) best get everything structural fixed as part of the purchase process. It's too easy to let it go awhile.

Number one rule once purchased. Go slow adding new goodies. You may not need them right away and the technology will have changed radically by the time you do need it.