A little help here?

[John C. Gresham]

There was a conversation on another message board I go to sometimes about holidays around December, which include Kwanzaa...I did some research and some *gasp* math and came up with these numbers and statistics which I posted on that board. If somebody can correct me or back me up, that'd be incredibly appreciated...really, I'm looking for honesty here.


Ok, I found some of it. It was started in '66 by Dr. Maulana Karenga. It first caught on as a mainstream and started appearing on calendars in the eighties.

It's observed by more than 18 million people worldwide (out of some 6+ BILLION people, and a continental African population (including Egypt) of some 680,000,000), while Christmas is celebrated by some 189 million people in America ALONE.

18 million people equates to .3% of the world's estimated population. Christmas is celebrated by approximately 34% of the globally estimated population. (NOTE: This is only counting Christian celebrants, not counting the non-Christian people who celebrate Christmas)

Haunukah is celebrated by primarily Jews, which make up .24% of the global population.

Sources:

A History of Kwanzaa
Center for the study of Global Christianity
United States of America Census Bureau
...and some others that I'm sure I forgot to mention but they're in my notes

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Please help us put the query in context and provide a link to the original thread.

It has the appearance that you are discriminating agents Kwanzaa, based on the popularity of Christmas ( a secular holiday which was originally marketed this time of year to compete with the pagan holidays )

Your numbers game serves what purpose? The popularity of a Christian holiday VS all others tying to mingling in on your holiday? Me personally I would be a great fan of FESTUVUS the holiday for the rest of us ;)

[ 12-12-2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Meerkat]

Some people go for quantity over quality... ;)

[Bruce Hooke]

What about Chinese New Year, which comes along not too far after the holidays mentioned and is probably celebrated by well upwards of 1 billion people?

What about Ramadan, which ended about a month ago and is celebrated by roughly 20% of the world's population? If current trends continue, in the not so distance future there will be more Muslims in the world than Christians.

[huisjen]

Ah, but Christmas is just a re-working of an old Pagan Roman holiday celebrating the Solstice, and Haunakah (I bet my spelling is even worse in Hebrew) and Kwanza both, in their overblown modern American forms, are both riding Christmas' coat tails.

There was a fine commentary a few weeks back on NPR, in which a devout christian said he'd trade a raft of Christmas', with the unthreatening infant Jesus, for one good Easter, in which the promise of Jesus' birth is fulfilled. He refered to the baby Jesus as "The Patron Saint of Fourth Quarter Earnings".

Wishing everyone a safe and happy Solstice,

Dan

[John C. Gresham]

I didn't ask for your opinions or what you think I'm doing with my post, I asked for you to confirm or deny my numbers.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

How is the semi pro football position in the Banana Guards going JG? tongue.gif

[High C]

Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
I didn't ask for your opinions or what you think I'm doing with my post, I asked for you to confirm or deny my numbers.Forget it, John. A bunch of the members around here are no longer able to focus on what's actually posted. They hear what they want to hear, and they argue against whatever pops into their heads, with little regard for what's been said.

It's pretty hopeless... :rolleyes:

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

HiC why are you so predicable....... Nope don't even post it I know what you are about to say ;) Ha Ha

John John, The phrasing of your question would lead any intelligent person to presume exactly the kind of numbers you are asking to be authenticated. Ya'all just wanna teach them nigra's a lesson an show them how popular we got This here Christian Holiday all locked up rit here in AmeeeeerIKA !!! Ya'all just take yer little o'l .3% of a holiday out of our celebration ya hear.

Oh and ifin that aint the truth o'l John Boy why don't ya just post the thread in question - Bless yer little ol heart ;) Hows that futball thing goingfer ya?

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Joe:

You usually make a point without bringing race into the discussion. Why would you make a racist post like that above? Let's keep the conversation clean - yes, even in the Bilge or you may follow Dutch out the door... And it is far too entertaining around here to do without Joe! ;)

[ 12-12-2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Captin follow the thread I asked nice at first, he responded


Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
I didn't ask for your opinions or what you think I'm doing with my post, I asked for you to confirm or deny my numbers.Kinda absent don't ya think???
So I asked again in his native tongue, figuring that would elicit a better response ;)

As fer Dutch yer presumption that he was shown the door is incorrect.

But yer rite it would not be half as fun if I was not around smile.gif

OK but seriously reading between lines of John boys thread here it seems kinda obvious he is not a big fan of Kwanzaa. Ya think??

[GregW]

John,
To answer your question, your numbers look reasonable.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Oh, no doubt. I agree he isn't much a fan. The way I read his post though he seems to be saying that this season with it's numerous "holidays" that are celebrated needs a bit of context.

I'm a fan of facts - they are a difficult thing to finess. If a third of the world celebrates Christmas (whether Christian or not), a third chooses to celebrate nothing and the other third celebrates Kwanzaa, Ramadan and Hannaka then it is reasonable to expect that coverage would roughly correspond to these world divisions.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Cap I'm a fan of facts too thats why I I asked for and as of yet to receive the original thread that John's query prompted. I think a wealth of knowledge can be gleamed from seeing the question placed in its original context. Ya folla ? :D

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
I didn't ask for your opinions or what you think I'm doing with my post, I asked for you to confirm or deny my numbers.In my experience it is not particularly polite for a person to ask a question without giving some information about why they want to know what they are asking. Furthermore, given the way discussions around here go, it is pretty common for someone to ask a question in an attempt to pull a "gotcha." If you are not trying to pull a "gotcha" or something similar then lay out where you are going with this and you will likely get some good feedback. Absent such an explanation I think many of us will quite reasonably assume that you might have a trick up your sleeve and so do our best to counter the expected trick. This may be a sad commentary on the way discussions around here go, but it is, I think, the truth of where things stand.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Bruce, tis not a sad commentary on us. Just think if a building or repair question was queried in such a way up top. Cleek would come out of the woodwork and Fleming would cast the first stone, and they would be correct. This is S.O.P up top why should we lower our standards down here.

Think of this question up top:

I'm about to build a boat I want it to sit on top of the water is that correct?

What do you think the response would be ?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

http://www.comedy-zone.net/pictures/images/naughty/rude007.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Oooh thats a good un Pete ;)
Joey like YUM smile.gif

I'm a sucker for a woman with a sense of humor :D

[ 12-12-2004, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[John C. Gresham]

Joe, my native language is English...not misspelling.

Thanks to Greg for answering my question.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
Joe, my native language is English...not misspelling.

Thanks to Greg for answering my question.Funny cause I do remember asking you first in english but you did not respond in kind ;)


Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
Please help us put the query in context and provide a link to the original thread.

It has the appearance that you are discriminating agents Kwanzaa, based on the popularity of Christmas ( a secular holiday which was originally marketed this time of year to compete with the pagan holidays )

Your numbers game serves what purpose? The popularity of a Christian holiday VS all others tying to mingling in on your holiday? Me personally I would be a great fan of FESTUVUS the holiday for the rest of us ;) So I figured a regional dialect would be better :D
But you take the information you WANTED to hear and go run and hide like your Momma.

By the way John I thought you were going on vacation???

[George Roberts]

John C. Gresham ---

A good many people in the US eat 3 meals day.

In some parts of the world people are lucky to get one meal.

Often times people do not have a choice in their behavior. Without a choice your question has no meaning.

I don't celebrate Christmas but as there are tax advantages to giving gifts either in December or January I often give Christmas gifts. I also take Christmas off from work - any reason to spend time with my grandchildren.

I don't know if I observe Christmas or not.

Polling questions often have a bias.

[John C. Gresham]

Joe, today's my first day back from vacation....I thought you didn't read the Awful Report. :D

I don't take the information I want to hear, I take the information that answered my question. Where the post was and what it's purpose was is none of your business. I was only seeking a fact-check.

Maybe a regional dialect will be better.

"Yo, shut you freakin' mouth before I bust yous in da face wit a friggin' bat."

I kid, because I like Joe (CSoH). If I didn't like him, I'd ignore him.

[jwaldin]

What about "FESTIVIS FOR THE RESTOFIS"? tongue.gif

[km gresham]

Have a RamaHanaKwansMas. ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

John since I had no luck reaching out to you and asking why you needed validation for your facts and figures regarding Kwanzaa. since you already seemed to have a very credible source. Do you some how think that the WBF would be a better source than your original A History of Kwanzaa
Center for the study of Global Christianity
United States of America Census Bureau ?
And since you are very reluctant for us to see how you placed this subject in context on the OTHER thread.
I decided to go to your Awful report in hopes to finding this OTHER thread that prompted this question., and some semblance of the REASON for it. Whew talk about a brain fart sifting threw that quagmire. Needless to say I did not find the thread in question.

BUT MOMMA who wrote this


Originally posted by km gresham:
Have a RamaHanaKwansMas. ;) This is the same mommas REAL thoughts on the holiday taken from her beloved sons Awesome report.


The Mother
Mammy of The John

Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 690

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:18 am** *Post subject: Thursday's Wednesday Update

Quite a good one, John! I won't call it turkey day either. By the way, who doesn't know that Ben Franklin of the little round glasses and the electric kite wanted our national bird to be the turkey! Well, I'm glad we went with the bald eagle - it would just be hard to get all patriotic feeling about a bird with a wattle, but it is good eating!

I feel an end coming to this nonsense about not even mentioning God in schools. We have gone beyond the bizarre when we can't allow children to learn history because God is not only mentioned, but revered and praised. My feeling is that if it's so offensive, then move to some place where they don't care for God. France or somewhere and leave the rest of us God-fearing, Country-loving, regular Americans alone!

We encourage children to learn all about diversity and acceptance of every wierd life style under the sun in government schools, but never mention God - Ever!

Rant over. Y'all have a wonderful Thanksgiving and start gearing up for CHRISTmas. (note not winter solstace, or winter holidays or whatever, but Christmas - you know, with the baby Jesus and the manger and all that.)

_________________
Mommy JESUSLAND!!!!

Bless her heart ;)

Now with that said John, if you really want to learn NYeeze all you have to learn is two words, howyoudoing & forgetaboutit each said in different contexts can have a million different meanings, Some almost as subtle as Bless her heart in your dialect ;)

So John Howyoudoing ?

[ 12-13-2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[John C. Gresham]

fuggeddaboudit

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

since you already seemed to have a very credible source. The Gresham Jesusland Consortium Inc? A credible source? :confused: :D tongue.gif :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[km gresham]

Why don't people like people who like Jesus? smile.gif I feel discriminated against on the basis of religion. I think I shall be offended. smile.gif

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Karen why don't you or John boy answer a direct question? :D

I doubt we will ever get the original thread on the other forum that John referenced. and I wonder why?

Karen with Islam becoming the # 1 religion globally you have valid reasons to be feeling discriminated against on the basis of religion ;) :D

[TGP]

"I feel an end coming to this nonsense about not even mentioning God in schools. We have gone beyond the bizarre when we can't allow children to learn history because God is not only mentioned, but revered and praised. My feeling is that if it's so offensive, then move to some place where they don't care for God. France or somewhere and leave the rest of us God-fearing, Country-loving, regular Americans alone!"

I find myself pretty much in agreement with this with the exception of "God fearing." My God is a loving God. I have no reason to fear him.

Joe, why do you hold so much animosity for people. The election is over. If some folks get under your skin on this forum then you give this forum way too much control over you.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Mike I love lots of people I just finished decorating around the house for Christmas. I LOVE this time of year who ever celebrates and how ever they celebrate the season.

A common thought is that I harbor a lot of animosity towards a few people on this forum. WRONG !!! I care a great deal for those I have met or feel sincere sympathy for and those that make me laugh. I DON'T care for those who's sole ambition is to USE this forum for their political or racial or religious cause. Mike I have to tell you I get A LOT of emails from known members and many many many lurkers that agree with what I post.

In this particular thread it is so obvious what I'm saying you would have to be Ray Charles in a dark cave to miss the writing on the wall.

John John is USING this forum to prove a point on another forum. I asked him to post the link ( Ya know how to post a link don't ya ) to the thread in question so we can see it in context. I reckon to guess that like his mom he may hold onto the CHRISTIAN - JESUSLAND view of this holiday season. I don't mind the Christian aspects of this holiday - hell I'm a church going dude and I celebrate the birth of Christ like many this time of year. What Bothers me is it is VERY apparent that John John already HAD ALL THE INFORMATION HE NEEDED to make his case on the other thread WHY DID HE NEED WBF BACK UP???????

So again I ask to see the original thread to see the question in context. And again he will DUCK, shuck and Jive.

[High C]

http://www.caryandassociates.com/mkt/memos/img/fisherman.gif

:D

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
There was a conversation on another message board I go to sometimes about holidays around December, which include Kwanzaa...

[ 12-13-2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Donn]

"Mike I have to tell you I get A LOT of emails from known members and many many many lurkers that agree with what I post. " "The Silent Majority speaks through me"

What a pathetic self-impotent little man.

[TGP]

From what I gather from the jist of it, you are accusing John of making a racial post, probably based on who he is and where he is from. I don't see anything wrong with posting some statistical data and asking for conformation.

The Christmas Holiday is indeed the one most widely celebrated in this country. Like it or not.

[ 12-13-2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: TGP ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Too bad you can't delete this thread hmm Donn?

Ya punk ;)

But if you read this thread carfully you will see others kinda agree with me :D


Originally posted by Meerkat:
Some people go for quantity over quality... ;)
Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
What about Chinese New Year, which comes along not too far after the holidays mentioned and is probably celebrated by well upwards of 1 billion people?

What about Ramadan, which ended about a month ago and is celebrated by roughly 20% of the world's population? If current trends continue, in the not so distance future there will be more Muslims in the world than Christians.
Originally posted by huisjen:
Ah, but Christmas is just a re-working of an old Pagan Roman holiday celebrating the Solstice, and Haunakah (I bet my spelling is even worse in Hebrew) and Kwanza both, in their overblown modern American forms, are both riding Christmas' coat tails.

There was a fine commentary a few weeks back on NPR, in which a devout christian said he'd trade a raft of Christmas', with the unthreatening infant Jesus, for one good Easter, in which the promise of Jesus' birth is fulfilled. He refered to the baby Jesus as "The Patron Saint of Fourth Quarter Earnings".

Wishing everyone a safe and happy Solstice,

Dan
Originally posted by Captain Pre-Capsize:
Oh, no doubt. I agree he isn't much a fan. The way I read his post though he seems to be saying that this season with it's numerous "holidays" that are celebrated needs a bit of context.

I'm a fan of facts - they are a difficult thing to finess. If a third of the world celebrates Christmas (whether Christian or not), a third chooses to celebrate nothing and the other third celebrates Kwanzaa, Ramadan and Hannaka then it is reasonable to expect that coverage would roughly correspond to these world divisions.
Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
I didn't ask for your opinions or what you think I'm doing with my post, I asked for you to confirm or deny my numbers.In my experience it is not particularly polite for a person to ask a question without giving some information about why they want to know what they are asking. Furthermore, given the way discussions around here go, it is pretty common for someone to ask a question in an attempt to pull a "gotcha." If you are not trying to pull a "gotcha" or something similar then lay out where you are going with this and you will likely get some good feedback. Absent such an explanation I think many of us will quite reasonably assume that you might have a trick up your sleeve and so do our best to counter the expected trick. This may be a sad commentary on the way discussions around here go, but it is, I think, the truth of where things stand.</font>[/QUOTE]
Originally posted by George Roberts:
John C. Gresham ---

A good many people in the US eat 3 meals day.

In some parts of the world people are lucky to get one meal.

Often times people do not have a choice in their behavior. Without a choice your question has no meaning.

I don't celebrate Christmas but as there are tax advantages to giving gifts either in December or January I often give Christmas gifts. I also take Christmas off from work - any reason to spend time with my grandchildren.

I don't know if I observe Christmas or not.

Polling questions often have a bias.
Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> since you already seemed to have a very credible source. The Gresham Jesusland Consortium Inc? A credible source? </font>[/QUOTE]

[TGP]

Who cares who agrees with you? It's not your job to police the Forum. I find your continuous browbeating of the Greshams tiresome.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Then don't read the threads MMike ;)

I don't police I observe :D
It is Sot's job to police and so far I have not needed to change my name, ya folla ?

[brad9798]

'TGP' I tend to agree.

Donn- ROTFLMAO really, truly LMAO- you just about hit the nail on the head ...

Another yea, but nuh-huh Joe argument ...

Oh, and almost everyone has agreed with me, via private email of course ... so that makes my silly argument ok, right?

Right?

Right?

I'm right, aren't I ...

hello ...

ANYONE?

Bueller?

Joe, you kill me. :D

[Donn]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):

It is Sot's job to police..

[TGP]

"It is Sot's job to police and so far I have not needed to change my name, ya folla ?"

The only reason being is because Sot doesn't spend enough time on here to know who you REALLY are and that's an impulsive, impressionable little child.

Enough for me. I don't allow much negativity in my life anymore Joe. You seem to thrive on it.
Bye bye.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Ooh donn a typo :eek: :eek:

Even with them Scot still likes me smile.gif

[brad9798]

'cause you're a suck-up ... ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Nope cause he has a mandate ;)

[John C. Gresham]

Joe: Kwanzaa (or Kwanza in Africa) is not a religious holiday. I was making a statistical list of how many celebrate what holidays. A good many celebrants of Kwanzaa also celebrate Christmas.

That said, I won't post the original thread, 'cause it's none of your business, I was looking for a confirmation of my numbers 'cause a good many people here are smarter with numbers than I am.

What do you celebrate?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by John C. Gresham:
Joe: Kwanzaa (or Kwanza in Africa) is not a religious holiday. I was making a statistical list of how many celebrate what holidays. A good many celebrants of Kwanzaa also celebrate Christmas.

That said, I won't post the original thread, 'cause it's none of your business, I was looking for a confirmation of my numbers 'cause a good many people here are smarter with numbers than I am.

What do you celebrate?See it just doesn't make sense you HAD your figures from a very reliable source. You were the one that mentioned the other thread, that is now none of my business :rolleyes: ;) I think the other thread if seen with your query in context would be VERY informative. But alas that will never happen. The secrecy making your motives even more suspect.

As for me ya throw a party and I will come ;)
Friends of ours are Jewish and yet they celebrate certain aspects of the Christmas season, like a tree and they come with us on a christmas candlelight tour of Boscobel house. They celebrate the religious aspects of Chanukah but they just could not fight the marketing of the Christmas machine :D Ya see I celebrate the religious aspects of the holiday, like midnight mass and praying, but I also just like this time of year for ALL the cultural aspects. When I used to live in Jersey City I went to a few Kwanzaa parties. The festival was fun and colorful and food was interesting. I think it is a time of year to be tolerant and understanding of ALL ways of celebrating what ever percentage of the percentage celebrates it. Tis the season .

[ 12-14-2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]