View Full Version : A rosy vision - and reality!

11-13-2004, 04:28 PM
Bush Paints Rosy Picture of Iraq Situation (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20041113/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush)

WASHINGTON - President Bush painted a rosy picture of the situation in Iraq, claiming significant progress Saturday in the U.S. military's battle in an insurgent stronghold.

In his weekly radio address, Bush praised the assault on Fallujah, west of Baghdad. About 80 percent of the city was said to be under U.S. control, with insurgents pushed into a narrow corner. But the battle has claimed at least 24 American lives and wounded about 170 U.S. troops, and violence has now spread to other Sunni Muslim areas of Iraq. Islamist Groups Vow to Spread Fight Across Iraq (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20041113/wl_nm/iraq_zarqawi_dc)

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamist groups, including one led by al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, vowed in a video obtained on Saturday to take their battle in the rebel city of Falluja to all corners of Iraq.

A masked gunman reading a joint statement from several militant groups also warned Iraqi government workers and soldiers would be targeted unless they stopped work immediately. So far, the insurrgents seem to have the big picture well within their grasp. Most of them left Falluja and started up fires in other cities.

Same old president, same old incompetence. :(

Art Read
11-13-2004, 05:48 PM
"We have them surrounded in their tanks!"

Reality, Meer? Or "spin"? I think I'll wait and see.

Wild Wassa
11-13-2004, 06:03 PM
Only woman and children are allowed to escape the fighting, males are being prevented from leaving the city ... the Kosovo atrocity was a males only affair.


N. Scheuer
11-13-2004, 06:45 PM
Yea Wild Wassa, that 's today.

Last week all of the Lord High Mucky-Mucks in the resistance walked out looking like ordianry civilians.

Don't look for anything to change after we "take total control" of whatever city, Fallougha, or however you spell that hell-hole.

Moby Nick

N. Scheuer
11-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Ya'know what? If Bushy had actually served in Viet Nam he might know a little more about this whole scenario.

To me it just looks like "Deja Vou all over again."

(can't think of an expletive that does this siutuation justice), Moby Nick

11-13-2004, 07:07 PM

11-13-2004, 10:36 PM
I think we see the light at the end of the tunnel. For the next engagement, let's be sure we outline the order of battle for several weeks in advance, give them plenty of time to get their tunnels dug, their weapons zeroed in, and their tactics refined. Really glad to know Bush is so popular with his military aides. That gives me lots of confidence that he knows what he's doing - or at least, that his aides are glad they're where they are instead of in Iraq.

11-14-2004, 12:14 AM

Chris Coose
11-14-2004, 12:31 AM
I'm glad this is his to fix.
During the campaign it seemed the motives for the invasion were getting clouded in the fog of war.
I picture the dubbya deep in the thick of this fog with few tools to navigate.
I'm glad it's his. I'm glad the allies are pulling up stakes.

11-14-2004, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
I'm glad the allies are pulling up stakes.Why?

11-14-2004, 04:14 AM
Nice to see, that so many hope we fail. I can't understand why though...


11-14-2004, 05:35 AM
Maybe some people figure that only a major explicit failure, one he can't spin his way out of, will make your genius president admit error, and then change tactics and Pentagon leadership for something that might actually work.

Happened to Lincoln in the Civil War. But he learned his lesson and changed his generals in his first term. Bush is no Lincoln.

11-14-2004, 08:33 AM
What do any of you LIBERALS think the insurgents are attempting to do? If you think their motive is to kick the US out so they can go back to their peaceful lives you are all dreaming. They are determined to keep Iraq a medival country where they can rule by terror. Oh yeah, if any of you have daughters can you say 'female circumcision'? If the US left today what do you think Iraq would look like a couple of years from now? Think about it and while you're at it thank God the President has the courage to stay the course and the commitment to help bring democracy to a region that would otherwise continue to oppress it's population.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
11-14-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by jwaldin:
What do any of you LIBERALS think the insurgents are attempting to do?I think they believe they are driving forigners from their soil and preserving their religion and known way of life. As misguided as that sounds, I believe thats what they are thinking.
Just my opinion you understand. ;)

I'm an Independent so maybe my opinion doesn't count. :D
Peace--> Kevin in Ohio

[ 11-14-2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Know It All ]

11-14-2004, 09:03 AM
3 things:

1)Iraq was ruled by terror, but was far from a medieval country - it was one of the most secular and middle-class countries in the Middle East;

2) They didn't do female circumcision in Iraq;

3) You don't have to be a liberal to think this war is a bad mistake, badly executed, by incompetent leaders. You just have to be intelligent, and know a bit of history and geography, like the difference between Eye-rack and Afghanistan. ;)

11-14-2004, 09:34 AM
George, have a look:

Female Genital Mutilation: An Introduction (FGM)
from National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers FGM Awareness and Education Project (NOCIRC), et al.
... practiced in ... ( ... two Yemens, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Southern Algeria) ... Kenya, Nigeria, Mali, Upper Volta, Ivory Coast, Egypt, Mozambique, and Sudan ... it is not an exclusively Islamic practice ... it is performed by Muslims, Coptic Christians, members of various indigenous groups, Protestants, and Catholics, to name a few ... "Sunna" circumcision: Consists of the removal of the prepuce and / or the tip of the clitoris. Sunna in Arabic means "tradition" ... Infibulation: (also referred to as pharaonic circumcision) This most extreme form ... FGM is also entering the United States with some immigrants who are holding on to their customs and identify ... Because of the large number of cases of FGM and some of the deaths it has caused, FGM is now outlawed in some European countries (Britain, France, Sweden, and Switzerland) and some African countries (Egypt, Kenya, Senegal) ... FGM is currently illegal in many countries in Africa and the Middle East ... World Health Organization has considered FGM to be a violation of Human Rights and have made recommendations to eradicate this ...

When I mentioned 'medival I didn't mean Iraq was a medival society rather the insurgents want to go back to that time period.
When you do your 'stupid redneck shtick' ie. "Eye Rack" ironically it is you who seems to be narrow minded. Not everyone who agrees with the war is a 'stupid red-neck'. It is exactly that attitude that lost the LIBS the 2000, 2002, 2004 elections and until that attitude changes the LIBS will continue to lose.
You can take this to the bank: The Repulicans who voted in the last election will vote in the next but the LIBS have 'a la la land' attention span.

Chris Coose
11-14-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Chris Coose:
I'm glad the allies are pulling up stakes.

Why? so that when the dubbya gets another idea to invade and occupy another country by way of crazed motives, he'll be all on his own.

This guy shall pay the price of his folly and the fewer getting sucked down with his world vision, the better.

I hope world leaders begin to return to decent diplomacy and leave the US out of it. We are displaying that we are unfit to sit at the big table.

11-14-2004, 09:57 AM
Your site may be flawed. Iraq is a country where female circumcision is NOT the norm. I won't argue that it may not happen occasionally, but according to your site, it also happens in the US and Western Europe, and among Catholics and Protestants. Every country has its freaks.

Female circumcision, whether in the form of infibulation or any other form, is not known at all in the countries of north-west Africa, the countries of Greater Syria, Iraq, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or Yemen.
I don't think most of the insurgents want a medieval society. Some might, but most want a modern tyranny, with themselves as the tyrants. ;)

Not everyone who agrees with this war is a stupid redneck, you are right. But I would say that those who agree with the way it is being conducted, well, maybe they are not all rednecks ;) . And not everyone who disagrees is a liberal. I am not. You get what you dish out.

11-14-2004, 10:18 AM
Rush Limbaugh, Fox News et al: "President Kerry's conduct of the recent invasion of Fallujah betrays an incompetence bordering on treason. The enemy was told weeks in advance exactly where our boys were going to go, what they were going to do, and what their objectives were. The advance publicity gave the Iraqi insurgents ample time to develop their counterstrategy. Former President Bush invaded Iraq with the noblest of motives, to protect Americans from terrorism, to depose Saddam Hussein, to forestall the development of WMDs in Iraq, and to being to Iraqis the democracy they so desperately want. He never would have sent our boys into such a no-win situation."

Sarcasm seems to be more and more on the tip of my tongue these days. Can anyone spell contempt?

[ 11-14-2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

11-14-2004, 10:20 AM
The site is not "flawed". I never said anything about how common or not FC is in Iraq.
One FC is too many anywhere. Google 'FC' and learn something before you run your mouth.
Splitting hairs about whether Iraqi insurgents want to run a tyranny or whatever is not the issue. The issue is Iraq was a horrible place run by pychopaths who would have loved to get their hands on a nuclear bomb. Spin it in whatever direction you want. The fact is Sadam had to go. Koffi and the French and Gore would never have done anything until it was too late.

[ 11-14-2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: jwaldin ]

11-14-2004, 11:19 AM
Half the world is run by psychopaths, and a lot of places are after the bomb. Should the US invade them all?

One FC is too many - maybe the US should invade Europe, or itself? :eek: Says in your site that there are FCs performed in the US and Europe.

It also says Catholics and Protestants do it too. Maybe it is a MEM thing, and the atheist Russians should invade the lot to put a stop to it.

You want to invade Iraq, fine. But you only get the benefit of the doubt if you make a full effort to get it right.

Rumsfeld fantasized that he was a latter-day Alexander, conquering the Mesopotamian plain with an undersized army. 18 months later the place is in chaos, people are dying in huge numbers, and he still tries to do it with an undersized Army. Better to f*** the whole place up than to admit a mistake. And Bush and his supporters are too dumb to see it and impose a new approach... or maybe too cowardly to admit it may take a draft, and send their kids over to clear up the mess their parents made.

[ 11-14-2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: George. ]

11-14-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by jwaldin:
Koffi and the French and Gore would never have done anything until it was too late.How do you know? Here's a question for you, a real simple one, multiple choice: Who attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon?
A) Saddam Hussein
B) Osama bin Laden

Who did your fearless leader go after?
A) Saddam Hussein
B) Osama bin Laden

Which terrorist is still at large?
A) Saddam Hussein
B) Osama bin Laden

Wave the flag and they follow like sheep, unless of course they're traitors.

Good point, George, I was wondering why this flurry of interest in Alexander.

[ 11-14-2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

11-14-2004, 12:54 PM
Saddam may have had to go - but $200 billion worth of had to go? For a tiny fraction of that one could have put an irresistable bounty on his head - say, $1 billion. In the chaos ensuing after his death there might easily have been an opening for an international peacekeeping effort. Instead, we got squarepants cowboy George and the rest of the peanut gallary.

Meanwhile, the US is in bed with Afghan tribal leaders who are quite despotic enough and we're also looking the other way as they continue to grow marijuana and opium poppies on a large scale. (Source: PBS "Now")

Harry Miller
11-14-2004, 01:01 PM
Well I'm glad that's all cleared up. The war wasn't about oil it was to save Iraqi women from female Genital Mutilation. Gee why didn't he say that in the first place?

11-14-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Victor:
Good point, George, I was wondering why this flurry of interest in Alexander.What flurry of interest? Did I miss something? :confused:

11-14-2004, 03:52 PM
A new movie by Oliver Stone and an interesting series on the History Channel.

Russell Sova
11-14-2004, 05:30 PM
That was a heck of a funny comment, Harry.

There are 22 Fallujah's in Iraq. There will be one after the other until only a few remain. We captured 300 a couple days ago because they gave themselves up. We killed another 1000 or so. Do the math. Our troops are braodcasting taunts in arabic saying "Come on out and fight, you brave men who hide behind women. Here we are. Just like you wanted".

One interesting sidelight. Did you ever wonder about the Arabs getting all upset and calling each other dogs, like that's supposed to really be a bad thing to be called? In Fallujah an imbedded BBC anouncer said wild dog packs are eating dead insurgants. I'd like to announce the immediate opening of head dog catcher in Iraq.

11-14-2004, 05:48 PM
In Arab cultures dogs are considered unclean animals.

The reason is that dogs eat not only sh!t, but corpses. And in Arab cities until quite recently people shat in the street, and tossed indigent and prisoner corpses off the city walls. Thus dogs performed an invaluable public health service, and were denigrated for it.

Moral of the story - even if you are honestly trying to clean up an Arab country, they'll still consider you a filthy dog. :D