A whole new take on photo ID's

[Sam F]

This is wild. A woman in florida is sueing the state to let her wear her veil or a driver's licence photo ID.
AP News Story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030528/ap_on_re_us/license_veil_6)

Here's how she wants the photo to look:
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030527/thumb.1054070000.license_veil_dob107.jpg

Now I know that my photo ID's tend to look like Death's Passport photo so I look forward to the change if she wins the case. Here's what I want on my new license: :D :D :D

http://images.allposters.com/images/MMPH/244909_a.jpg

[ishmael]

I'm one of the least natively bigoted people I know, but these people are a real case. I'm beginning to feel I don't like conservative Muslims very much.

Let's give them a nation of their own. Do you think we could move Mecca to Greenland?

[Sam F]

I can't help but enjoy complete wacko lunacy. Such things come in great variety and this example just happens to be Muslim. What's the point of a photo ID if one is completely unrecognizable? I love it!
Who was that Masked Man????? :eek: :D :D

[km gresham]

On my liscense is a picture of a smiling woman. I won't look anything like that if I get pulled - I'll be frowning and possibly crying - depending on the amount of the ticket. ;)

The ID picture with no face - just veil - is beyond ridiculous. Who is that masked woman? It goes back to "when in Rome ..." If you don't like the way the game is played here then go elsewhere. The rest of us have to play by the same rules. tongue.gif

[Shang]

I'm going to ask to wear my hat...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid9/p75a1f8fac347a88abfa59cc79eed905c/fe28256c.jpg

[Dave R]

A few years ago, I went to renew my driver's license. The woman behind the counter said, "Stand on that mark." As I was looking down to make sure I was standing in the right spot, she took my picture. I suggested maybe it would be good if I was looking at the camera when she took the picture. She said I only got one shot and I'd had it.

For four years I had to take off my hat when someone want to check my ID to see if it was me. :rolleyes:

[ahp]

I notice that she is a convert to Islam.

[km gresham]

ahp, how convenient! ;) So if I convert to Islam I can get my liscense made with a veil? That'll help me in my life of crime. :rolleyes:
Nice hat Shang - I think you should give it a shot. smile.gif

[NormMessinger]

Look! One persons religious beliefs are no more, um, less, rediculous than another's. When there is conflict with the law one much make a choice but it dosent hurt to ask, er, sue 'cause that's how these things are decided around here. If she looses she has a choice to make.

Anyone else what their religious view defended? Athiest for hire.

tongue.gif

[Sam F]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Look! One persons religious beliefs are no more, um, less, rediculous than another's.
Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Art Read]

Valid point, Norm. But driving a car is a priveledge, not a right. So far as I know, a picture ID is not a "requirement" in this nation yet, but traveling overseas, or by air domestically, cashing a check or getting into a bar might be problematic without one. (I assume that getting into bars probably won't be an issue for her...)

Suppose it was against my religion to submit to blood alchohol testing? Should I be able to "sue" to get my licence back after refusing one?

(So, just how do Fundamentist Islamic countries handle the passport issue anyway?)

[ 05-28-2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[NormMessinger]

Now, Sam, you're biased.

And, as Oyster used to say, "That's all I'm going to say about that."

Til later.

[paladin]

what the hell does she want a drivers license for...she's a woman...Islamic women do not drive cars.......she should make up her mind...she is Islamic or not...no half ways....

[Sam F]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
Now, Sam, you're biased.
Really? How?

That was a pretty broad statement you made. Howsabout justifying it? :D

[NormMessinger]

But but.... I'm sworn to silence.

[James R]

If you want to see what she looks like go here. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/sultaana1.html)

[Alan D. Hyde]

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

If she doesn't wish to be photographed in such a fashion that her features are identifiable, so be it.

Under such circumstances, the State may rightly withhold a license to drive. Why are we wasting time and attention on this slimeball of a creature?

Alan

[Norm Harris]

Forget about the religious "right" for a moment. If she wants her picture taken in that regalia, I assume that she wants to drive in that regalia. Do you want to be on the road with other drivers who have the periferal vision of a horse with blinders?

[Don Olney]

I guess if I'd been arrested and convicted of beating foster children in my care, I'd probably want to have my face covered in public too.

[km gresham]

LOL Paladin - that was my first thought too - I thought they didn't drive! That shows intolerance, ignorance and extreme prejudice on my part - oh and incredible insensitivity :D
Ok, here's a solution, the old persona, Sandra Kellar has to get her picture took for the liscense. The new persona, the muslim woman, doesn't have to, but she can only drive as Sandra Kellar. tongue.gif

[ 05-29-2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

[jlapratt]

We are missing the point here. States have regulated the requirements for obtaining a driver's license and one of those is that a document containing positive identification (a picture in this case) in order that law enforcement personnel can quickly and accurately ascertain the validity of the individuals license to drive. Unfortunately, both law enforcement and commerce have made a DL the standard for identification purposes. What is worse, is that law enforcement at all levels can access your photograph from the DMV at any time. What about our right to privacy? The state has effectively coerced us into giving this right up so that we may have the priveledge to drive. Try living without being able to drive, possible but very impractical (and not much fun!). The arguement that 9/11 dictates giving up more of our rights is BS. Our freedoms are slowly being erroded away. Wasn't it Franklin who said "People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security". Regardless of any oppinion on the indivdual or circumstances of this particular case, I hope she wins for freedom's sake.

Jeff

[km gresham]

Jeff, if she wins, I'll wear a full veil next time! It's gotta look better than that lady on my liscense now ;)

[jlapratt]

Me too!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Wayne Jeffers]

It seems to me that having photos on drivers licenses is a recent development, in the last 20 years or less. Since non-photo ID's sufficed for almost a century, I'm not sure the state has a compelling interest in demanding a photo. Given the quality of most DL photos, I'm not sure how valuable they are anyway. Why not fingerprints? Voice prints?

FWIW, I think it's only a few of the most fundamentalist Muslim countries (Iran comes to mind, Afghanistan under the Taliban) that do not permit women to drive.

Wayne

[km gresham]

That just reminded me - somewhere I have an old drivers liscense - it's a metal tag with the persons name and birth date stamped in it - like dog tags! smile.gif I think it's from the 30's.

[Sam F]

Curiouser and curiouser...
"Freeman outlined other measures her family uses to maintain their adherence to Islamic law. Her daughter's dolls, she testified, have no faces as images of the face are considered taboo. Even the faces on cereal boxes are forbidden, said Freeman, so Freeman — and her daughter — black each one out carefully using black magic marker."
For more info and photos go to:

Veil Dispute in Florida (http://www.courttv.com/trials/freeman/052703am_ctv.html)

[R.I.Singer30]

Originally posted by km gresham:
Jeff, if she wins, I'll wear a full veil next time! It's gotta look better than that lady on my liscense now ;) I'd also steal her liscence and drive like a bat out of hell.Yea that's me ossifer. smile.gif :D

[km gresham]

We should all hope she wins - this can be a blast!Those poor highway patrolmen won't stand a chance of knowing who any of us are :D Shang with his diving helmet, me in full veil, and whatever anybody else comes up with ;)

[Sam F]

Originally posted by km gresham:
We should all hope she wins - this can be a blast!Those poor highway patrolmen won't stand a chance of knowing who any of us are :D Shang with his diving helmet, me in full veil, and whatever anybody else comes up with ;) Oh they'll know me all right. "Officer. This silver bullet will identify me!" :D

[km gresham]

:D

[James R]

According to CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/28/license.veil.ap/index.html) these are the rules for driver id in some Muslim nations:

Saudi Arabia: Women aren't allowed to drive
Iran: Women wear a traditional chador, which does not cover the face.
Egypt: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
United Arab Emirates: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Oman: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Kuwait: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Qatar: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Bahrain: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures
Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered but do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Here's a somewhat more detailed story (http://www.wftv.com/news/2230721/detail.html) about Sultaana Freeman's brushes with the law.

[km gresham]

Interesting story. I'd hide my face too. Anyway since when is driving a right ? Is that in the constitution? I missed it. :rolleyes:

[thechemist]

That is a very interesting story.

The woman is quite a piece of work.

So's her husband.

Who is paying for all the legal fees to create this story and push it through?

Who benefits if they win and all muslim women or those claiming to be can walk the streets veiled?

Here's who: anyone who does not want to be recognized in public, or even to be identifiable as man or woman, and chooses to be dressed in loose robes capable of concealing automatic weapons, grenades, rocket-launchers and such.

This one is not going to fly in wartime such as we have now; It is a marginal idea in peacetime.

[km gresham]

Chemist, it's pro bono I'm sure ;)

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by thechemist:
. . . chooses to be dressed in loose robes capable of concealing automatic weapons, grenades, rocket-launchers and such.

This one is not going to fly . . .chemist,

Do you oppose the concealed carrying of automatic weapons, grenades, rocket launchers and such?

Careful, you'll get the Second Amendment crowd stirred up. ;)

Wayne

[Gresham CA]

I'm opposed to concealed carry. I'm also all for open carry. :D

[Scott Rosen]

The cited article implies that the ACLU is carrying the legal work.

This case is bound to make bad law, no matter how it comes out. The woman is mentally unbalanced and sociopathic. She is not the kind of person you want, and these are not the facts you want, as a plaintiff in a First Amendment case.

[thechemist]

If the ACLU is doing it at no cost to these victims of this oppressive society, why in the world would they pick, as Scott points out, such a poor case to take forward? Are they that hard up for cases? This does not speak well for the future of the ACLU if pickings are that lean.......