To Saw or not to Saw

[emichaels]

White Oak , I have been told there is a certain time of year, ie season, when this should be logged and milled. This is to prevent the wood from turning black due to sap, possibly. Is there somewhere that knows for sure about this.

[Bob Cleek]

Logged yes, milled, no. Unless you are felling your own oak, don't sweat it.

[emichaels]

Well I will indeed log and saw the wood. In Ohio on my Dad's farm there are several large white oaks and a huge swamp white oak. I am going back to log and mill these tress. So I wanted to know if there is a problem logging the wood in January, ie will it stain ??

[ 11-07-2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Dave Fleming]

Winter Cut White Oak, finest kind.

Mr.S will be along to describe the steps necessary to prevent ruining your fresh cut logs.

[emichaels]

Thanks Dave. That is what I was hoping. I was hoping also that Bruce and Bob would weigh in on this one. I would hate to degrade this lumber. It will be a good harvest. Approx 7500 bd-ft total it looks like.

[ 11-07-2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Thorne]

There's another thread or three on this, but as I recall, the best time to log is midwinder at the dark of the moon and low tide -- seriously! This supposedly keeps the sap to the absolute minimum.

[Bob Smalser]

None of that dark of the moon stuff makes much difference. Fall the trees when you're ready to fall the trees, summer or winter. The extra water in the tree in summer is all in the sapwood, which you have little interest in, anyway.....the varience in heartwood moisture content between summer and winter is almost nil.

My Grandfather falled them in winter so he could use the snow to his horse sledge's advantage and he had time on his hands with no crops growing....today I have machines and don't worry about it.

Just make sure you don't leave them lay for even a day before limbing, bucking, and coating the log ends heavily with either Anchorseal wax emulsion from Baileys-online or Henry's water-soluble roof patch tar available cheaply at Home Despot. Paint doesn't work well to prevent checking...you need heavy wax or tar.

Then get the logs milled ASAP....within a week in your dry season or two weeks in the wet. Then stack and sticker by proven methods.....lotsa dead-flat bearers, half-inch stickers in between each board deck lined up on the bearers, open sides in an area with gentle, 360 air flow, tar paper or waste sapwood boards on top (that's beveled cedar siding covering the hardwood stack below). Nothing covering the sides, and no plastic ever:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4110272/52876879.jpg

Then go back after the first few rains, sight down your boards, and level up your bearers if necesssary:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4110272/52876888.jpg

Milled this winter, your 5/4 and thinner stock will be ready next September. Your thicker stock can also be used but must be protected from drying out too fast and can't be resawed at all until it's moisture content is stable all the way thru its thickness.

Many will say to weight the stack. I don't. I, general, if the wood isn't cut straight and stacked flat, it's gonna move and no amount of weight will stop it. Most mills don't cut straight (cutting for max yield) because furniture doesn't require it. Your bending stock must be dead straight, so if your sawyer's mill doesn't compensate for log taper, have him remove slab equal to the small diameter of the log, taking out all the taper before milling bending stock. That means a lot of waste, but save and dry the slabs for later resawing into something where sapwood and grain runout is OK.

[ 11-07-2005, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[emichaels]

Thanks Bob and others for opinions,
This is the first year I have been milling my own lumber. Put up about 3000 bdft cherry and 4-5 k of white pine. I did use plastic on the top cover though. I save the bark covered slabs, scabs as they are called around here, put those on top with the bark side up and let them hang out the sides about 4-6 inches andput plastic cover on top of that. Creates a nice "roof". Have not had any wood get wet so far. I planned to drop two or three oaks and mill the same day, end coat and stack. Roughly 5-600 bd-ft a day with the logging and stacking.

[ 11-07-2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[emichaels]

PS. The issue of WB that just came this week, in the restoration series article they talk about correct milling technique for frames. Exactly as you say Bob.

[Bob Smalser]

If it's already there, plastic won't hurt if your stacks aren't any wider than 4 feet or so.

[emichaels]

I go with 3 foot stacks 4 feet high with 1" stickers, to get a lot of air flow. Seems to work well enough.

[Mrleft8]

Be careful who you take advice from.... Seen how long it's taken Bob to get a foundation in his house?! tongue.gif :D In all seriousness..... Smalser is pretty much correct on this. One thing to think on though is: BUGS. Yup, bugs do like white oak when it's green. I suggest milling after the first real hard frost. Not just the first killing frost, the first hard frost. These guys out there on the left coast don't deal with that but the rest of us do.

[Bruce Hooke]

Four more advantages of doing sawmill work in the winter:

1. You're less likely to get drenched in sweat under the necessary safety gear.

2. Your equipment doesn't get bogged down in mud because the ground is frozen (assuming it gets cold enough to freeze the ground down in southern Ohio this year).

3. It is easier dealing with the branches that are too small to be useful because they aren't covered with leaves.

4. As Bob hinted at in his post, you've got a bit more time to get the logs processed if it's cold out because the water in the logs should largely be bound up by being frozen. For Ohio I would translate "wet season" to "cold season" (unless you have a warm January and it isn't actually cold!).

[Bruce Hooke]

By the way, thank you, emichaels, for your compliments on my knowledge both here and on the birdsmouth thread. I have been messing around with wood in various contexts for quite a few years, and I've also spent a certain amount of my spare time delving into the engineering side of wood, BUT to give credit where credit is due, Bob Smalser is a master of the logging trade (and a skilled woodworker) where I am just a good student at best by comparison, and Mrleft, as a professional cabinetmaker, has the experience that only years of working with wood every day can bring.

[ 11-08-2005, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[emichaels]

Originally posted by Mrleft8:
Be careful who you take advice from.... Seen how long it's taken Bob to get a foundation in his house?! tongue.gif :D In all seriousness..... Smalser is pretty much correct on this. One thing to think on though is: BUGS. Yup, bugs do like white oak when it's green. I suggest milling after the first real hard frost. Not just the first killing frost, the first hard frost. These guys out there on the left coast don't deal with that but the rest of us do.I had not thought about bugs. If I were milling here in Maine I know to not let softwood logs lie around for long, above 60 F. Worms start in then. In Cincinnati where I will mill the oak and an awflu lot of Ash the winter can be iffy. They get ice storms in Jan/Feb often. But they do get a killing frost. Thanks all for the advice I feel reassured that Jan logging/milling is a good plan.

[Bob Smalser]

For the benefit of West Coast readers, we enjoy the same bugs the East Coast has...plus a few more. None are an issue if you follow the proven practices I describe above.

Ambrosia Beetles are the most common...there are several species...and emerge at 55 degrees to bore into the sapwood to lay their eggs. The sugar in the sapwood nourishes Blue Mold to form in the tunnels, which then feeds the larvae. They don't attack heartwood and they depart with no further harm once the wood dries out. Their stains can be pretty in some woods, and I have a few large maple logs left whole on the ground to stain and spalt to make select panels and turning squares from.

Powder Post or Lyctus Beetles attack heartwood and are the most destructive of wood pests, needing neither sapwood, moisture nor bark to thrive. But they can't stand air flow, and the only places I've found them around here are in old barn beams, old furniture and in hardwood stacks totally covered up by brush or tarps.

Carpenter Ants don't eat wood, they just nest in it. They hate stickers, however, and will ignore your properly-made stacks to attack your dense pile of cutoffs instead.

There are also a couple of Cedar Borers that make tunnels in the logs but leave once the wood is milled and dry.

I don't sprinkle Diazinon around and under my stacks any more every spring because I've found it to be a waste of money.

The key is to convert the logs immediately, regardless of season. The old saw of falling trees and leaving them to "season" in the woods for a year is a myth....logs don't dry significantly as logs. Logs can be stored, the big mills certainly do it...but they either have to be ponded in water or debarked, and for the small operator, milling them is easier than either.

[ 11-08-2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[emichaels]

Man I love this WBF. It only takes a few really knowledgable people to make things go smooth. We are fortunate enough to have several people who take their pursuits to such a high level that they just get it right. Then they share and we can hopefully all get it right too. Thanks a ton (of cedar shavings).

Eric smile.gif

[ 11-08-2005, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[gary porter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
[QB]For the benefit of West Coast readers, we enjoy the same bugs the East Coast has...plus a few more. None are an issue if you follow the proven practices I describe above.

Bob, just curious, do you saw a lot of White Oak down there? I was told once by a sawyer in Indiana that White Oak if sawed at the wrong time of year (seems I remember it being spring) would turn black pretty quick. If the wood was for bending it seems it wouldn't make much difference as it will turn black anyway though that cleans up easily. For furniture it might be of more concern. Don't think you need to wait a year for bending stock, green is good.
We unfortunately don't have any White Oak up here so I have to buy and ship it in. Normally I get it from Indiana , one reason for wondering if you you actually have it in the Washington area?
Gary

[emichaels]

Gary,
When I lived in Seattle I used to get hardwoods at a place called Crosscut Hardwoods, looks like it change names a little.....
Hardwoods in Seattle (http://www.emersonhardwood.com/cchw/product.asp?cID=98621850867507)

Eric

[gary porter]

Originally posted by emichaels:
Gary,
When I lived in Seattle I used to get hardwoods at a place called Crosscut Hardwoods, looks like it change names a little.....
Hardwoods in Seattle (http://www.emersonhardwood.com/cchw/product.asp?cID=98621850867507)

EricYep, been there many times,,, I love that place, it was still CrossCut last time I was there but thats been about two years.
Gary

[emichaels]

Yeah I just noticed the website was emersonhardwoods.com , something like that. That place was cool alright. I'm still hauling around a huge chunk of KOA they got in from Hawaii. I couldn't resist it cause it looked to cool. Made some bowls for gift to people and a writing desk base out of it. Still have about 100 bd-ft worth.

[gary porter]

Originally posted by emichaels:
Yeah I just noticed the website was emersonhardwoods.com , something like that. That place was cool alright. I'm still hauling around a huge chunk of KOA they got in from Hawaii. I couldn't resist it cause it looked to cool. Made some bowls for gift to people and a writing desk base out of it. Still have about 100 bd-ft worth.I've got four big planks of curly koa sitting in our bedroom,, look at them every night and morning. Someday I'm going to make a table but haven't found what I want for the second wood yet, that is for the legs and such.
Had to take out a loan to buy it but just couldn't pass it up. Luckily my wife loves wood as much or more than I do.
Gary

[emichaels]

Thats funny, I thought I was the only guy around with wood standing in the house. I have a bunch of 14' long mahagony boards in the living room. The ceiling is open all the way up. We are in a little cape that is open in half of the floor plan. Couple walnut live edge planks from crosscut. and a couple of beautiful spanish cedar planks 20" wide 12/4 and 14' long. I am lucky, as you are, that the wife indulges me my trespasses. You know ash looks pretty good against koa. That writting table I made had an ash top that I used water based dyes to make a light brown color. Finished off with waterlox and polished. Personally did not like the design but the woods worked pretty well togeather.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by gary porter:
... do you saw a lot of White Oak down there?

I was told once by a sawyer in Indiana that White Oak if sawed at the wrong time of year (seems I remember it being spring) would turn black pretty quick. We have an excellent WO locally...Quercus garryanna...that I grow. And as a kid on the farm back east, we harvested more WO than anything else.

There's two possibilities for WO to turn black and both require warm temperatures:

There's sap stain...the wet sapwood turning black from Blue Mold. That happens to all the species I mill here. It planes out in most species, in WO, Holly and some other white woods it can turn the sapwood's interior grey. As proper boats don't contain any sapwood, it shouldn't be an issue. It is an issue of you're selling FAS's for the furniture market, however, as the wood closest to the bark is the most free of pin knots. Today they still harvest in summer but hustle that wood off to the kiln to avoid staining.


Sap Stain (Blue Stain)
When wood is exposed to slow drying conditions, it is likely that the sapwood will become infected with a fungus that results in discoloration of the lumber. This discoloration is called sap stain, or blue stain. The typical coloration is blue, gray or black. The color is actually due to the color of the fungus itself, rather than a color change within the wood cells or chemicals. Although the fungus does not appreciably affect the strength of the wood, it does create color problems for wood that will be finished with light-colored or clear finishes. Prevention and control of blue stain is easily achieved either through better drying or chemical treatments. The following discussion covers prevention and control of sap stain.

The other is iron stain exacerbated by WO's high tannic acid content. This can be imparted by the saw blade, but it also planes out:


Iron Tannate Stain
Iron tannate stain is a result of a chemical reaction between wood tannins, water and iron. Control is achieved by eliminating the source of iron. Typical iron sources are rusty metal in the kiln (such as roof vents or fan floors). Water condenses on these iron items and then drips on the lumber. Rusty, iron steam spray pipes, with inadequate water draining systems, can also cause iron stain. Spray lines should drain by gravity, should have a small pipe at the end to carry away water, and should have spray holes facing upward (on the top half of the pipe). Occasionally, the source of iron can be metal chains or forks used in handling the lumber. In this latter case, the stain seldom penetrates the lumber surface more than 1/64 of an inch.

Quotes from Gene Wengert at Woodweb.com

[ 11-08-2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[gary porter]

Thanks Bob, very informative,
So, does your WO turn black or dark when you steam it? Mine does, but as you said it does clean up esily so I don't really worry about it as far as boat work goes. We don't have much in the way of iron in our well water but perhaps enough.
Gary

[emichaels]

Oregon White Oak, aka... Quercus garryanna

White oak (http://www.nadalie-usa.com/sources_USA.html)

Eric

[emichaels]

Bob,
How long can WO sit outside drying, ie. what moisture content would be TO dry for steam bending frames. Or does it matter when it is air dried ??

Eric

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by emichaels:
Bob,
How long can WO sit outside drying, ie. what moisture content would be TO dry for steam bending frames. Or does it matter when it is air dried ??

EricForever, providing you cut the brush around it for air flow. I have 10-year-old stacks of rot-prone species that are all still just fine.

For steambending relatively small frames, I wouldn't hesitate to use it green. I stuff bending stock under the dock for a few weeks before use anyway, and have had decent results even with greenish Doug Fir, which doesn't like to bend at all.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by emichaels:
Bob,
How long can WO sit outside drying, ie. what moisture content would be TO dry for steam bending frames. Or does it matter when it is air dried ??

EricIn my experience a lot depends on how tight the bends are that you need to make with the wood. If you are going for the limit (trying to get a really tight bends) then the sooner the better is probably the way to go. However, straight-grained white oak bends very well even if it is air dried, so unless the bends you need are really extreme you should do just fine with air-dried stock. That was my experience bending air-dried white oak into a small rowboat. Actually, now that I think about it, since I had to let the wood sit around for a few months between buying it and bending it, and since there were some pretty tight bends up near the bow of the boat, we soaked the wood in water for a month or so before bending it, so it was certainly wetter than air dry, but not as wet as green (there is only so much water that you can get back into the wood via soaking).

For relatively mild bends I've also done just fine with kiln-dried stock -- as I said before, it all depends on how sharp a bend you need.

One common cause of wood turning black when you bend it is steel contacting the wood. The steel could be a backing strap, a clamp, or I suppose even the whole steambox. Steel in contact with hot, wet wood will, with certain species, turn the wood black. My steambox is wood and when I use a backing strap I cover it with clear packing tape, and I put pads under any clamps that contact the stock. Using these precautions I have not had problems with the wood turning black.

[emichaels]

Bruce, What you say is very consistent with Bobs info. Thanks indeed.

[Bob Smalser]

The qualifier on bending any green wood is that it must have zero grain runout.

It'll bend much easier than drier stock....so easy that pieces that would crack were they at 12% EMC instead or 30% will go in very nicely...

...then crack after the boat is finished.

[Steve Miller]

Emerson is the wholesale arm while Crosscut is the retail store. They are in Portland too. Still going strong and fun but expensive place to shop. Decent prices and selection of marine ply though.

[ 11-08-2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Steve Miller ]

[emichaels]

By the way Bob you do a really neat job of stacking/stickering. There isn't to many sights better than a NICE stack of lumber drying properly. Well maybe a beautiful boat built of that same stack................

[seo]

This is just hearsay, but I was told by a very good older builder that the right way to get out framing stock for a lightly timbered boat (a rowing boat, not a cruising sailboat) was by splitting the logs, not sawing them.
My guess is that the reason was to prevent grain runout, and because you won't be able to split through a knot, so won't be using knotty stock.
If ultimate light weight is the object, it's probably necessary to put up with frame stock that isn't perfectly square, but shows the natural run of the grain. Otherwise, once it's been split to two faces, the other two can be dressed up normal to the first two.
This is communicated through three generations, down from a great grandfather who "built boats in Goteberg, outside in the winter without his mittens on." Whether this indicated he was tough, dedicated, or stupid I dunno.
If you look at any of the descriptions of how to make a white oak basket, they begin with splitting (not sawing) young green white oak into withes (thin strips) and then immediately weaving them into baskets. Supposedly the Viking longships were built entirely of split timbers, and Indian canoe builders seemed to use the crooked knife for splitting, not a saw.
I think that green wood is better for steam bending because the more thouroughly moisture is distributed through the piece of bending stock, the quicker it will heat up to the critical temperature where the wood will slide internally, and realign itself. After reading an article about how some asian builders used open flame for bending timbers, I did some experimenting with green stock and a propane torch. It can be done, but it's harder to get uniform distribution of heat. And it's hard to set your bending stock on fire in a steam box...
seo

[emichaels]

Its true when making chairs in the "green" method one will split out the stock for spindles and back spindle in ash or white oak. In the issue #187, for those that rec'd it (he he), the part 4 of the restoration series talks at length about the correct sawyering of frames. Sawn parrallel to the grain not the axis of the log. This creates a slight wedge. So you have a little more waste but you get true straight grain stock. The other option would be to rough out an oversize blank on the bandsaw along the grain and the plane it down to scantlings. either way you get a waste wedge. Great wedges though for shimming verious things in and around the house !!!

[ 11-10-2005, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]