135 cu inch engine

[Moose]

So I started lofting Slippery, which thanks to everyone's sage advice I've decided to build cold-molded, but now I'm faced with the problem of how I'm going to power this beast. It was originally designed for the 135 class of hydroplane racing, but it seems that there's a shortage of engines on the market now. Any advice?

[Ross M]

I would consider a Ford V8-60 (Flathead). 136 CID and positively tiny:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/FH_images/FH_engine-pics/Flathead_Engine_scalepic_1937-40_V860.jpg

Ross

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If you feel adventurous, consider modifying a car engine for marine use. Show us the design if you can...

[Gary E]

Where would you ever find a 65 yr old engine? and if you did find one what shape would it be in?

How about using a 4 cyl engine that was common in the little GM cars of the 80's and 90's?...

It's not like you need to meet spec's if your just building a boat for fun, now if you are racing... that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I wuz thinking maybe a Honda Civic engine, or a subaru...

[Ross M]

Why not? Well, I have not seen a profile, but dollars to donuts the deck line is quite low. Overhead valve engines are very tall - overhead cam engines are (usually) taller yet...

[JimConlin]

I think that some of the Detroit 4-cylinder engines were marinized. Mercruiser?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

That little four cylinder chev mercruiser is dung.
I'd consider a nice liquid cooled motorcyle engine though.

[Gary E]

Keep at it and you could do with a chain saw motor.. :D

Hey.. could work...
cut the trees with the...chain saw...
make them into boards...chain saw..
when done,,, make it the boats motor.. smile.gif

I do not know what boat you intend to build much lees the requirements of a power plant. One sugestion is that you seem to want a rather small engine. If that is what you must have to fit the boat...I sugest finding a source for the motor first before comiting to building a boat and end up with to small a hole to shoehorn the motor into.

[ 12-27-2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[brian.cunningham]

OK seriously here folks.
If it's a racing series, then there has to be a set of rules out there telling you what you can and cannot do.

So the 1st thing you need to do is get a hold of those, otherwise you could spend a lot of time and $$$ only to find out you can't race it.

Talk to people still racing them.

See if there's an organazation out there.

Here's a start
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/bachelor1.html

Nice looking boat BTW!
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/bachelor11960.jpg

and it looks like they did run flatheads!
From thier site
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/bachelor1flathead60.jpg

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Gary E:
Keep at it and you could do with a chain saw motor.. :D Actually, it's been done. I built one of these in the mid '60's. 55 mph with TWO chainsaw motors. Fun Fun! It was called a HydroKart.

http://tinypic.com/j90gh0.jpg

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

My knowledge of hydroplane racing is non-existant but it was not uncommon in days of yore to take a suitable car motor and sleeve it down to get a race motor under some displacement limit. The down side is you have to rebalance the crank for the lighter pistons and the head would have to be milled to get the compression ratio back up to where it belonged.
Charlie

[emichaels]

How about a Volkswagon 1.8L turbo diesel engine

[sdowney717]

believe it or not, I always thought the VEGA 4 cylinder aluminum block would make a good boat engine. About 125 HP. I rebuilt several by sleeving the cylinders. They were overhead cam and would rev nicely. I shaved the heads on one 60 thousands and it made it real peppy.
When they were sleeved it eliminsted the trouble they had.
Twin holley carb
overhead cam
cast iron head
aluminum block

So lightweight reliable power. If the camshaft belt broke you will NOT ruin the valves.

[JimConlin]

Someone will remember the link to the motorcycle powered by many (12?) chainsaw motors. Wasn't quiet.

[kc8pql]

Originally posted by Moose:
It was originally designed for the 135 class of hydroplane racing, but it seems that there's a shortage of engines on the market now. Any advice?I've just been Googling around Ford Flathead V8. You'd be suprised what's out there for these old engines. Parts, tech sites, rebuilders, speed parts, all sorts of stuff. Found an engine shop that sells re-manuractured full blocks for $2995. If I was building a classic 135 hydro, I think I'd give some serious thought to using a classic 135 c.u. V8 engine.

[SouthForkSam]

I've built a couple of 59-AB flatties (Flathead Ford V8s) and they are most likely not what you want. They are HEAVY. Old style thick wall casting. Parts are fairly available as there is a large resto-rod/rat rod resurgance so you can get all of the speed parts. If you need one I have a line of a couple rebuildable blocks.... (Ok so I build hot rods and have a 1935 ford 3 window coupe).

I personally would look into a more modern aluminum block and head assembly. I have seen some really hopped Buick Quad 4s and the SVO 2.3 4 cyl Turbo Ford from the early 80s was quite a runner.

What are the rules for the class?

[SouthForkSam]

Oopps sorry it is an old's quad 4 not a buick. There is an HO version available that was 136 CI and 180 HP. For some more info on modern 4 cylinders in that size range that can be ran with carburetors (w/o modern efi) and tweaked to produce close to 300hp (natuarally apsirated) see:

http://www.quad4rods.com/index.html or
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/73858/

[Moose]

Thanks for the outpouring of advice folks. I think I'm gonna try and get an old flathead v-8 (2 grand and change sounds better than 7 or 8.) I'm not planning on racing it so I don't have to adhere to class rules, I just didn't want it to be too heavy or have so much power that I kill myself the first time out....

[SouthForkSam]

A flathead v8 will weigh in at 560 pounds (or thre abouts). I've been doing a little research on the web and the new Ford 2.0/2.3L I-4 Duratec weighs 200 pounds. They can be found very easily with low miles for under $800.00. With side draft webers ($750 for the carbs and $295 for the manifold), and ignition system ($295) (from the quad4rods catalog at http://www.quad4rods.com/Catalougue.pdf ) you would have a $2100.00 or so toal cost. Most of the HP/LBFT test for motors equipped like this are 180HP and 150 foot pounds of torque. End result a much higher hp motor at a lot less weight than an old flatty V8.

I am starting to think about swapping one into my 63 sunbeam. I have a Mustang 5.0 EFI that I was thinking about putting in it, but the little, light I-4 would keep this Alpine much closer to its roots (at least visually).

[Canoeyawl]

The Ford V-8 60 (horsepower) is a completely different engine than the run of the mill flathead Ford V-8, they have nothing in common. The 60’s were only produced from 1937 – ‘40 as a fuel economy model. Some of the later blocks (1940) had sheet metal sides and are lightweight (comparatively). These little engines were popular in the hydroplanes and the midget racecars. They are smooth as silk and the rpm limit is very high, 6000+. Speed equipment such as high compression aluminum heads, multiple carburetor intake manifolds, exhaust headers and more was offered by various manufacturers and you still see it for sale occasionally at the larger antique auto swap meets. I have built two of these and they are a fun little unit to work on. Unfortunately they are getting very scarce and I would not expect to just go out and buy one or even buy the parts needed - it will be a search - there was probably one built for every 200,000 of the 85 horsepower flatheads.
By the 1960’s the 144 cu. in. Falcon six was used in the hydroplanes; they were able to run even higher rpm’s. I’ve heard claims of over 9000 rpm’s.

[Ross M]

Googled "Ford V8-60 parts"

From the second hit: (http://www.driveonline.com/html/classifieds_2.html)

"'37 Ford V8-60 Flathead, tin sided block eng came out of CrisCraft boat, high volume oil pan, special carb., motor spins freely. Been stored indoors for 50 years. Needs comp rebuild. Comes w/NOS pistons, valve guides & clutch, complete gasket set, extra set pistons and rods. $1,700. Call 510-521-5537"

[Bill Childs]

We just converted a Mercruiser 120 (Chevy 4 cyl) sterndrive motor to a real inboard. New ZF gear, electronic ignition.
<img
src=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p4b61195591e0a358ae9bee751c589bee/f1493621.jpg>

These motors are fine. They got a lot of bad rap because they were stuffed into ungainly modern boats as poorly trimmed I/O's. Most were ran hard in heavy boats and improperly maintained.

[Bill Childs]

Sorry, messed that photo up. Here's another stab at it:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p4b61195591e0a358ae9bee751c589bee/f1493621.jpg

[SouthForkSam]

Well..... guess you learn something new every day. I wasn't aware of the smaller V8-60s. It would be pretty nostalgic to run your hydroplane. There are a few builders stuffing them into motor-cycles so there must be decent part availablitiy for them. Any one have the weight numbers for one of these? I haven't stumbled into them via google yet but am looking.

[Moose]

So I've found a good number of v8-60's in the $1500-$2000 range (which is just fine) but 560 lbs sounds a bit heavy. Does anyone have any idea what the engines that people used to put in these boats weighed? The brochure that is in my plans specified the rocket and the Grey Streak but I haven't been able to find info on those engines...

[Charlie Santi]

I grew up in Tonawanda, NY and we did some APBA racing on the Niagara River. We ran a Lauterback 225 class hydro with a 2000 cc ford pinto engine. Very crude waterpickup cooling system. Direct drive of cam belt to prop shaft. Don't recall exactly how it all worked but the boat ran well. I only drove it a few times for testing. We had a driver for racing. I do recall that as soon as your fired the boat up you were moving they was no neutral or reverse.

[John Bell]

There was an ACBS guy in Atlanta who had an old hydro similar to what you are showing here. It had an old Crosley 4-cylinder for power.

How about a Toyota 22R? Anyone ever tried to marinize one of those? They are tough motors, frequently running 300,000 miles in pickups without a rebuild.

[Old Bingey]

John Bell,

Yeah, there were a bunch of Crosley powered hydroplanes back in my youth. I had a Crosley car. It was a neat little engine. Here is a link. Check out that Crosley "Icy Ball." Powell Crosley was an old time unfettered genius.

http://www.ggw.org/~cac/index.html

[SouthForkSam]

I still think the duratec 2.3l is the way to go. Here are some short blocks from marcy motorsports:

"Race quality, professionally assembled, balanced and blueprinted short blocks. Built from all new components including a new Ford block and crankshaft, H-Beam Connecting Rods, and Forged Pistons. Allow 4-6 Weeks for Delivery.

MM-SB23D-TC 2.3 Duratec Balanced, Blueprinted, 12.5:1 compression (when used w/stock head) $2499.00

MM-SB23D-HC 2.3 Duratec Balanced, Blueprinted, 11.5:1 compression (when used w/stock head) $2499.00

MM-SB23D-SC 2.3 Duratec Balanced, Blueprinted, 10.0:1 compression (when used w/stock head) $2499.00

MM-SB23D-LC 2.3 Duratec Balanced, Blueprinted, 8.5:1 compression (when used w/stock head) $2499.00"

The 11.5:1 compression motor with a stock head should make about 240 hp. At 200 pounds total weight for the motor and 240 hp that little hydro plane would scoot...... maybe too fast.

[Ross M]

Moose

The 560 lb. figure applies to the full size Flathead, not the much smaller V8-60.

Dave Williams' Engine Weight/Size FYI (http://autoxer.skiblack.com/enginefyi.txt) lists 525 lbs. for the '32 flathead w/iron heads and integral bell housing; 569 lbs. for the '53 239 CID version.

Unfortunately, Dave's document does not have a value for the V8-60, and I have not been able to find it elsewhere.

I have, however, recently seen a V8-60 side by side with it's larger cousins and can say the V8-60 is MUCH smaller, and presumably much lighter - particularly with aluminum heads and manifolds.

As far as the overhead valve/overhead cam 4 cylinders go: If the design you have selected has an open engine bay, great. If it has a hatch, you will find these engines are very tall and will probably extend well above the deck at centerline.

The Suzuki GSXR-1000, for instance, measures just shy of 18" from crank centerline to top of cam cover.

The corresponding figure for the V8-60 is less than 12" :D

Ross

[Ross M]

Is this the boat we are discussing?

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5403.jpg

[Gerald]

As late as the 70's people were running the Ford 60 in midget race cars. Offy was hard to beat until the Chevy two took over. There were thousands of parts for the 60 and for sure some of them are still lining the shelf of a few garages.
Gerald

[Moose]

Yes, that is the boat we're discussing. It's just got such great lines...