France Seeks to Ban Religious Symbols in Schools

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

French headscarf ban recommended (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3309885.stm)

Muslim girls in France could be barred from wearing headscarves in schools after an expert commission recommended a ban on "conspicuous" religious signs.
The official commission headed by former minister Bernard Stasi has released its findings on issues relating to religion and the state.

French President Jacques Chirac will announce next week whether he supports the commission's recommendation.

The ban would also include the Jewish skull-cap and large Christian crosses.

More at BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3309885.stm)

[Gresham CA]

It sounds evenhanded. I don't see a problem with it.

[John Bell]

I dunno, Charles. It seems very overbearing to me.

[Gresham CA]

You just want to be contrary, John. smile.gif

[John Bell]

"Secularism is the separation of church and state, but it is also the respect of differences."

The commission's proposed law was intended so people of all religions could "live together in public places", he said.

Mr Stasi stressed that the commission's work did not target France's Muslim community but was aimed at giving all religions a more equal footing.
Yeah, it gives all religions a more equal (if diminished) footing. :rolleyes:

And they way they are going to "respect differences" makes no sense to me. Obliteration of all outward signs of ones faith does not equal "respect" in my book. Methinks the cure will be worse than the disease if they continue down this path...

[ 12-11-2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

[Chris Coose]

"Large Christian Cross"?
Suppose they mean like life size?

[Gresham CA]

My faith is what I am inside and how I behave. Not what I wear. That is why I don't see a problem with it. I'm not familiar enough with other religions to comment to them.

[martin schulz]

We've got the same Discussion in Germany.

Our Constitutional Court ruled that they won't decide either way but that it is up to each' state school-board.

I some schools in Germany, like in France there is 90% foreigners (in Germany mostly Turks and Russians in France Arabs). This is not only a problem for educational matters, because German parents are taking their kids out of those schools and the Kids left can hardly speak german, but also turk-girls often have to wear headscarfs as symbol for their religious belief which again widens the cultural gap.

[Keith Wilson]

It seems a pretty large restriction on personal freedom for very little benefit. I think the first amendment would likely prohibit anything similar in the US.

[Eric Sea Frog]

The argument is still going on, but it is largely a feminist, equal-opportunity move.
The ban would apply to state-run schools only, during classes.
It would protect kids who wear a Muslim veil on their parents' order from any bias from the part of the teacher during classes or examinations.
It would soothe inter-communities quarrels.
Surely not a perfect solution, but makes some sense. My bet is the law will be passed.
But I gather Mr Moore has an idea... tongue.gif

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

BBC TV news tonight - French Moslems protesting about a Japanese department store putting up a "large and conspicuous religious symbol" - a Christmas tree!

[Donn]

CNN tonight...The Eiffel tower has been decorated as a Christmas Tree. Looks great!

[ahp]

Christmas is a big thing in Japan, even though the Japan is 99% Buddist.

[Meerkat]

ahp; Can you provide a cite that Japan is 99% Buddhist? I'd agree that they're 99% religious, but often they mix their religions up: part Christian, part Shinto and part Buddhist, depending on what part of their life they're talking about. They see nothing inconsistant about having a Buddhist alter, shinto shrine and a crucifix in different parts of their house.

Christmas in Japan is an introduced, secular gift giving season. They have other gift giving seasons as well. They love to give gifts and retailers are happy to oblige their love.

[ 12-11-2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

Although the Christmas celebration as we know it today is a Christian feast, the idea of having a big pagan party around the time of the winter solstice is very old, going back to the Mesopotamians. The ancient Egyptians brought green palm leaves into their homes on winter solstice, and evergreens have been used in many other cultures to symbolize the hope of fertility and the coming spring.

The Vikings had big parties around winter solstice, and any household master that did not brew an adequate amount of strong beer for his household for Christmas could loose his property and be put to death, according to Norway's first written law.

Since the church could't beat the old pagan traditions of christmas, it was turned into the celebration of Jesus' birth that we know today, instead.

[Bruce G]

Originally posted by Oyvind Snibsoer:
Although the Christmas celebration as we know it today is a Christian feast, the idea of having a big pagan party around the time of the winter solstice is very old, going back to the Mesopotamians. The ancient Egyptians brought green palm leaves into their homes on winter solstice, and evergreens have been used in many other cultures to symbolize the hope of fertility and the coming spring.

The Vikings had big parties around winter solstice, and any household master that did not brew an adequate amount of strong beer for his household for Christmas could loose his property and be put to death, according to Norway's first written law.

Since the church could't beat the old pagan traditions of christmas, it was turned into the celebration of Jesus' birth that we know today, instead.You forgot to ad the part where the tradition of adorning the evergreens with silver and gold came from.

Truth be told, 99.99% if not 100% of all Bible scholars say that Dec. 25th is WAY off when it comes to the birth of Christ. Many of them propose that it happened sometime in September, and that His death happened on the same day as Pass Over.

= We all need to look closely at many items that have been passed down from one generation to the next, for many lose their true meaning. Kind of like the short story The Lottery, we all forget what is the meaning behind the meanings. We do it every day when we have conversations as well. Kind of like: 'He is on the level' 'We have pull with him' 'He is a good fellow' 'He'll give you a square deal' or 'Whats eating you'

Hey Paul Schultz- am I incorrect that in Germany there is a saying that in English would translated 'Whats eating your liver?' meaing whats wrong with you? I believe the English and German idiom derive from the Greek story of Prometheus having his liver eaten out everyday and it growing back everynight because he gave fire to man.

Just a tid bit of info to make us all think about what we do and why we do it.

[Eric Sea Frog]

The Greeks assumed the mind dwelt in the liver, not in the head.

[Meerkat]

The christmas tree in American homes has only been popular since a magazine article published in 1851. The article was about a new fashion that had recently started in Victorian England and it quickly, helped by retailers, became the rage.

[Scott Rosen]

Apparently the French have a new way of defining Liberty. Chirac wants to outlaw the wearing of Moslem scarves in public schools. He will also outlaw “large crosses” and “Jewish head coverings,” but smaller crosses and stars of david will be okay. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3738077/

I guess that the only thing France despises as much as America is the presence of visible Moslems in their midst.

Thankfully, such a law could never exist in the US because of the First Amendment.

Bastards. If I were a French student, I’d urge all of my fellows to engage in civil disobedience and don Muslim head gear every day until the law is repealed.

Americans shed their blood to liberate Muslims in Iraq and Afganistan, while the French engage in religious repression of Muslims at home.

The post-Coldwar world is starting to take form. It’s not at all certain that the old alliances will survive.

I say we Americans take up a collection to cover the cost of shipping “Lady Liberty” back to her builders.

[Jim M]

Bastards. If I were a French student, I’d urge all of my fellows to engage in civil disobedience and don Muslim head gear every day until the law is repealed.
Me too. This is a gross violation of human rights by people that should know better. The United States should file complaints with the UN and the EU.