Reefing Raffee/Square from deck

[Hughman]

I would like to know if it's possible to reef a square sail from deck- not just hauling clews, but a useful reef. This particular setup includes a raffee flown above the yard, which measures about 18'.

The square sail measures:
Head, 16' 8"
Foot, 9' 8"
Hoist, 19' 8"
First reef, 4' from head; foot = 14' 10"
Second reef, 10' from head; foot = 13' 4"

Raffee

Foot 16' 4"
Hoist, 11' 3" (15' 3" to base line)

This is part of the sail plan for a 35' (43OA) Vixen class gaff cutter by John Atkin. The boat is not currently rigged for these sails, although that's the intention.

It's a lot of sail area, and I believe that striking sail rather than reefing is the preferred approach for coastal sailing.

Here's my view of the situation, however, I am soliciting workable alternatives:

Any reef would have to be tied in before the yard is hoisted, and only with the expectation of an extended period of use, e.g. mid-ocean passage. The whole hoist would have to be doused in the event of squalls etc.

Here's some photos of the sails staked out for measureing- the square is distorted by perspective, but is wider at the top.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p4785f0d7404bf033ee9d7b5692ac55d3/f6533dfe.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/pa03c79fe3d55df13fbfda51c485522b2/f6533dff.jpg

[ 11-10-2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Hughman ]

[MAGIC's Craig]

A bunch of years ago, we sailed a 72' schooner with a course and raffee such as you show on a 10,000 mile loop in the Pacific.

We would hand the raffee as a first reef when the breeze got up, dropping it forward of the course and hauling it down on the foredeck using a pair of light brailing lines. On TALOFA, the course brailed to the center (like a curtain), so we did not have a simple option to tuck in a reef without re-rigging her with the more traditional clew-up rigging. However, we found that if the wind was getting a bit too strong, we would just ease the sheets a bit, allowing the foot to rise and this reduced the pressure on the sail. If the weather was really snotty, there generally was enough windage in all this rigging (plus the are of the furled course) to grant comfortable steerageway.

By this time, seas were up and the yardarm on a small vessel in a rough sea is not much fun. There were a few times when we gave thought to how nice it would have been to have been able strike the yard as well :eek:

Perhaps one of the other members has some experience with your rig and can comment.

Craig Johnsen

[Hughman]

Craig, I imagine the yard on a 72 footer would be in the 30' range?

This rig is intended for a hull half that size, and it would be prudent to have a flying yard.

There is barely enough justification for these sails, or room for their attendant tackle.

Lets see, I count 2 haliards, 2 running lifts, 2 braces, 4 sheets, 2 tacks, 4 clews, 4 or 6 brails, (or just sheets and haliard on the raffee, plus a downhaul of some sort)...

Ahem, this is gonna be fun...

[John E Hardiman]

A polarce commonly reefed on deck as all the yards were set flying.

[MAGIC's Craig]

TALOFA's yard was 42' long and (probably) a couple of hundred pounds heavy with its ironwork and gear :eek:

It was a lot of gear, windage and weight. I was happy to leave the concept to big vessels when designing our current schooner, MAGIC. A lovely, light asymmetrical kite suits the two of us just fine ;)

Craig Johnsen

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The French had this cracked, a hundred years ago.

They used roller reefing topsails on their Breton collier schooners. I have unfortunately forgotten the name of the patent, and I can't find a photo on the Web.

I do remember seeing a brigantine, about 45ft OA, that had roller reefing squaresails, furling inside the alloy yards, like a modern in mast reefing Bermuda mainsail does.

[George.]

Every time we run Dalia wing-and-wing, I dream of a square forecourse.

Is it worth it on 57' foot schooner? It would run better, and fill with a quartering breeze (unlike the #$%*! foresail), but would cause windage when beating, and be a bitch to furl and stow. But it would look good with a following wind!

Any experiences/opinions on this subject? Can you reach with a well-set-up squaresail? Is the yard more trouble than it's worth? Should it drop to the deck when not in use, or live up by the crosstrees?

[Hwyl]

Hugh, I've always admired the squaresails on Shenandoah. I beleive they call them gallants (and pronounce them "g'ants".They leave them up most of the time when they're sailing, including "close hauled" (in a Shenandoah kind of way) Could you leave the yard up, have he rafee set as a semi permanent sail (part of the "working" wardrobe, brail it like a tops'l when it's too windy or if you're parked) and have the roller furler Andrew suggests for the course. I would suggest, sourcing cheap carbon fibre for the yard. (Thunderbolts strike misanthrope in Wells!!!)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A squaresail that can be braced up sharp has its uses. By backing and filling, you can work up a narrower channel than a fore and aft rigged vessel can manage. Which is why the British collier brigs lasted into the twentieth century and why our coasting schooners all had topsails.

[George.]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
A squaresail that can be braced up sharp has its uses. By backing and filling, you can work up a narrower channel than a fore and aft rigged vessel can manage. Could you explain how that works? You wouldn't tack up a channel with a squaresail, I assume.

[Ian McColgin]

Backing and filling: As the tack starts, allow one or more squaresails on the foremast to take the wind on the forward side, back the sail. that will slam the bow around smartly and then, with the command "Let go and haul" - let go one set of braces and sheets and haul the other - you fill the sail for forward power. Clever boat handlers can make their vessels really dance.

One odd looking but very effective approach to hanging stuff off a yard was Jay Benford's 'Surprise' or 'Sunrise' or some such name. The central sail was triangular with the base at the top along the yard. On each side was another triangular sail so between the three you had a full quadrilateral of sails that each made good venturies, like little spinnakers. A triangular raffee could be set above. This is more efficient than just one quadrilateral sail and gives lots of 'reefing' options in the form of striking any of the four kites.

LFH designed a yard for the Marco Polo but whe I go to make a real voyaging running/reaching arrangement I'll not go for the clutter of a yard at all. I like the 'twizzler' approach of twin jibs boomed out with the clews out ahead of the tack. Better stability and less roll.

[Dave Hadfield]

Here's a thread with photos detailing how we set the Square on Drake.

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=002087&p=

As for reefing, I don't, since I have enough lines up there already and I'm not looking to put up more.

On the Great Lakes cargo schooners, they often had a jackstay set up ahead of the mast -- a line boused very tight 8in in front of the mast right down to the deck. The yardarm ran on this as it went up and down, which kept it under control. (Like a very cheap track!) For reefing then, you'd just lower down until you can reach the sail, tie in the reefs, clip the sheets onto the new clew-grommets and hoist back up.

As for reefing the raffee, you could just remove it in the above scenario, or, fold it down onto the front side of the square and have it fasten there somehow, though this would spoil the flow across it on a reach.

I mostly have fun with the square, but it's a very nice sail for downwind work -- no worrying about jibes.

[George.]

What about the downside? Is a square sail dangerous if you are short-handed? The Portuguese of old used to fairly dread being taken aback, as that caused the loss of many a nau. Do square sails have any dirty tricks they spring up on the unwary?

[Paul Scheuer]

This, and other old time pics seems to show a light spar for the raffee only. There's a lot going on up there with all those jibs. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/p582d3ac98c8088622547c08c93c9a7f4/fc75f855.jpg

[Hughman]

Now, that's a good photo, Paul! :cool:

In thinking about this sail on this boat, I'm concerned about trying to apply a complicated rig in such a small area. This is, after all, why spinnakers evolved the way they did.

Dave's jackstay has merit. Got me thinking about snow rigs.... :eek: