Sheet copper work.

[Donn]

I saved all the copper that I took off the bottom of my Garvey, and I want to start working with it to make stuff, boat stuff and garden stuff.

I've figured out how to clean it up, and how to cut it, but not how to flatten it. I was thinking about a piece of smooth steel plate set on my bench, and a flattening hammer (flatter).

What kind of steel, and how thick should it be?

[Dave Fleming]

O&O East, what is the approx thickness of the copper and any guesstimate of its age?

Copper if having spent a lot of time in salt water can be brittle as well as age hardened.

Are you working with say, 2 foot wide strips or sheets at 3 foot by 3 foot or narrower strips than the 2 foot width I first mentioned?

Reason I ask is that it may be easier and less destructive to the copper to use a roller type device to flatten it. The rolling pin principal, is what I had in mind.

[Donn]

O&O West;

Just guessing (no calipers) maybe 1/32" thick? What was commonly used on the bottom of small boats, as ice damage prevention?

It doesn't seem at all brittle, and it still hammers out pretty well, using a small piece, and the side of a sledge hammer as an anvil.

Work pieces will be no larger than 1' wide, frequently smaller.

Roll it with what?

[Dave Fleming]

1 foot is kinda wide to roll as it might start to curl up unless the ends are clamped down.

Why there was copper on the bottom I have no idea.
Guessin' could be wear/ice protection, trying to keep the bottom from drying out if kept out of the water and upside down, doubt if worms were a consideration for a small craft.

Whilst I am ***NO*** sheet metal worker or coppersmith, I would be cautious of smacking it on an anvil or steel plate.
Dimly I recall that sheet metal workers used wood hammers and leather tipped wood hammer on copper and lead etc... They did have tack hammers for nailing the sheets to whatever.

Matt Escobar had a whole collection of such hammers and some anvil types which were made of blocks of maple or local ( California ) hard woods like pepperwood they were covered in leather. I believe I recall that his English Wheel had steel rollers but it is just too damn long ago to be sure.

[alteran]

Might be easier to just buy new copper. 3'x6' sheet is about $50.00

[Donn]

I'm recycling.

All I want to know is what kind of steel to use as a bench plate. Stainless, tool, etc.. How thick a piece do I need?

[nedL]

Donn, all you really need is a piece of steel thick enough so that it will not bend/dimple/deform under the force required to work the copper (not much in reality). I'm sure that a piece of 1/4" plate will more than do it. What you will want to do though is to securely fasten the steel plate down to put some mass behind it (screw it to your bench top). Though a nice thick chunk of steel gives a quiter, nicer sound.
You will find that it takes a bit of practice to get the dimples, wrinkles, & bends out of it. A variety of different size & weight hammers will help to. You will learn with practice which hammer to use for which kind of dimple, wrinkle, & bend. It is not a matter of bruit force, if you just start beating it with a big hammer you will find that you are hopelessly putting big curves & bends in it. Very often you are better with a lighter hammer & lighter taps so as not to start thinning the copper out. (Big hits w/ big hammer will tend to thin the copper & that is what will force bends & curves into it.) I've always used steel hammers as you will want to carefully control right where the hammer makes contact (right on the peak of a dimple or crease), and that you can not do well with a wood or leather mallot. Depending on what is being worked out I use anything from a tack hammer to a 5lb. mall (use the regular 16 oz. claw hammer quite a bit). Its kind of rewarding after a while, being able to turn a wrinkled piece of copper into an almost dead flat sheet. Have fun smile.gif

[NormMessinger]

Opinions are like...

So here's mine: I don't think you need steel. Use a hardwood block, end grain, well supported and a leather faced wooden mallet and Dave suggests. Beating on it will harden it. Heat will anneal it.

[MarEng]

Another opinion that's worth what you paid - have done a lot of work in the past with SS and great care must be taken to avoid contamination with mild steel and carbon - leads to pitting and corrosion of the SS. Not sure if the same will occur with copper, but beating it on a steel plate sounds like a good way to contaminate.

I'd put my money on a good hardwood bench.

[Donn]

"Beating" is not the proper word. It's more like tapping, or dapping, to be precise. I've seen coppersmiths doing what Ned mentions, usually on bench anvils, or square steel 'bench plates' that are only 4" square. That's too small for my application, but the same idea.

[Jon Etheredge]

You will probably have trouble making the sheet flat by hitting it with a steel hammer against a steel plate. The problem is that every hammer blow will make the sheet slighter thinner. The metal gets thinner by displacing metal rather than the metal compressing. Since the displaced metal has to go somewhere, the result is that the metal is stretched a bit. And it ends up being more wavy than before.

A leather mallet and end grain surface as suggested by Norm will be less likely to cause stretching.

[Donn]

I'll try to be more specific. The pieces I'll be working will be between ~4" and ~12" wide, and up to a few feet long. The flattening needed is the removal of dimples and creases it got from riding the bottom of a wooden boat over (presumable) ice, rocks and such.

No matter what I use as the 'plate' I figure it needs to be about a foot long and ~6" wide. I have no endgrain hardwood that big, so I'd have to make something up from smaller pieces, and, I guess, let it into the benchtop. I'd have to make it uniform and smooth, and, I guess, preserve it in some way (outdoor workbench).

It sounds like a piece of steel plate would be easier. a piece of "A36" steel, 1/4" thick, and 1'x2' costs $35. The same size piece of "304" stainless costs $93.

So..do I buy a 1" thick plank of 12" wide hardwood, crosscut it up into six 2" lengths and laminate them together, making a 12" x 6" x 2" thick plate?

[Dave Fleming]

Tempered Masonite might work.
Very dense, can take a reasonable amount of punishment though not with steel hammers.

Get it smooth both sides in the 1/4 inch thickness.

Will take outside use, not direct rain but under the workspace/carport on the existing workbench.

I have used it for donkeys years for sacrificial tops on work benches, glue tables ( well waxed with Trewax ) and the like.

edited for spelling...before Donn catches it.
insert big grin here

[ 08-26-2004, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Donn]

You've been trying to get Masonite onto my bench for 2 years! What are you, a Mason? :D

[Dave Fleming]

You've been trying to get Masonite onto my bench for 2 years! What are you, a Mason?LOL

Nope, the only organization I belong to is the Shipwrights Union.

[alteran]

If you were to ask a mason [me] I would suggest a nice granite benchtop. A little more expensive than masonite but more versatile. Great to roll out pie crusts on for instance.
I had to straighten some copper last winter for a kitchen countertop and we used a hard rubber mallet with the copper laid on top of a heavy old steel desk we use as the shop office. It worked but the pencils in the drawer below bounced a little.

[Gary E]

Donn,
Call a few local machine shops, as who has a Blanchard. Tell them you want a 1 inch or so thick pc of plate ground flat. Make it 2 ft square or what ever size looks good on your work bench. A36 is a std but you dont care what it is. Stainless is going to cost a fortune, and light oiling will keep your new "Bench Block" in fine shape. You need the thickness for several reasons, 1/4 in wont ever be flat, and anthing less than 1 in will deform as you take out your fristrations on it.

Rolling will flatten, but not with a rolling pin. You would need one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.c om/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25278&item=3834787605&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25278&item=3834787605&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

You can see the ends of the 6 rolls 3 above the pass line and 3 below.

One last thing, you will find a lot of uses for a nice FLAT surface to work on. It's not gona be a "Surface Plate" flat within tool makers need's but good nuf for govmt work.

[ 08-26-2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Donn]

I don't have a basement, water table is too high here. :D

In the spirit of your advice, how about an assessment of the fiscal efficiency of my wooden boats? My V8 4x4 van? My high-tax waterfront property? When does spending on a pleasurable hobby become too much? ;)

I imagine I can find other things to do with a nice steel plate on my workbench, besides flatten copper.

[ 08-27-2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Gary E]

"When does spending on a pleasurable hobby become too much?"

When you cant aford the necesities, and a sherifs sale notice is nailed on your front door.