Plank separated :-(

[ihrig]

My 1958 Cheoy Lee was removed from my slip and rafted to give room for the Newport Ensenada racers. While rafted part of the cap rail and rub rail were destroyed.

The marina covered it up by having a carpenter replace it with some thing they sell in Mexico as mahaogony, but it's not. While preparing to varnish the hull, I noticed that the bottom edge of the top most plank sticks out more that the top edge of the second plank. The botom edge of the top plank is separated from the ribs as well. (The boat is fastened with copper rivets.)

So now I have a repair job on my hands. I plan to remove the fake section of cap rail and rub rail. My question is, how do I pull in fasten the wayward plank? I don't know where to get rivets, and don't trust bronze screws. I do like epoxy and 5200 though. I don't know how the planks fit together at the edges.

Anyone got any hints, suggestions, or articles about the topic?

[Hugh Paterson]

Do you intend to do it yourself or take assistance from someone familiar with the repair? The rivitts are still available, if not as common as they once were. The repair itself is not too hard, but as the well worn cry on the forum goes, I would highly recommend you seek the opinion of a competent wooden boat surveyor before you rush into things.
Shug.

[ihrig]

I intend to do it myself to make sure it is done right. I might be able to find a competant carpenter at Baja Naval in Ensenada Mexico where I keep the boat. That would be the most ideal situation, but they don't work weekends.

Otherwise I am on my own. It is easier to do it myself than have someone say they can do it, wach them take a sander to it to make it flush, and then have them give me a big fat bill.

[ihrig]

Surveyor? Is he going to do the work, or just give me a big fat bill?

[John E Hardiman]

Originally posted by ihrig:
Surveyor? Is he going to do the work, or just give me a big fat bill?Well...a couple of years ago there was a "consultant-good/bad" thread on the SUN mainframe users group I sometimes go to when I need someone to help me with the Sparc system I administer. One Sysad said (and I paraphrase):

"He was the biggest SOB a**hole I have ever met. Cost an arm and a leg and was a real pr*ck. Started telling us how f**ked up we where the moment he walked in until he left three hours later. In those three hours he told us how to fix every problem we had had several IT techs working on for the past year. I don't have to like him, but I'd hire him again in an instant if I ever have a similiar problem."

As the old mechanics saw goes "It's $1.00 to swing the hammer and $99.00 to know where to hit it" :D

[Hugh Paterson]

I was thinking about a surveyor just to ensure that u had good advice on corrective action to get on top of it now, but if you are happy doing it on your tod, power to your elbow and such like :D

[ihrig]

I work for Sun.

Let me make this clear, my boat is in Mexico. I don't think there are boat surveyors. But there are plenty of people running around the docks willing to take money and screw things up. I am not about to hire the same bunch of people who banged up my boat to do more to it. In Mexico the marina owners won't permit outsiders to work on boats. So my choice is to do it myself. It is just the way it is.

I thoght this was a boat building forum. Does anyone have information to share? We are talking about a displaced plank. Is it too exotic?

[Dave Fleming]

How somever you can't shlep it up to SD and see what you can see?

From Ensenada to SD ain't 'xactly an ocean crossing is it?

[ 08-25-2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[ihrig]

I don't want to bring it up to San Diego. What a friggen hassle. I took it out of San Diego because they wanted $800 for a weekend haulout for a 25ft boat!

Lets see there is the 24 hour sail up wind, customs inspection, big fat fine for the tri-butyl tin (TBT) paint I have on the bottom, another $400 EPA fine for working on the boat in the water, extra dock fees.

It is much easier to take out the lousy coverup done by the Mexican carpenter and do it myself. It could simply be that the rub rail was installed incorrectly and when I take the screws out the plank might just go back where it should be. I don't see why I should be so affraid of hurting a $4,000 boat that I should spend a couple grand just to cater to fear.

I have build a cold molded boat, why should a plank be so scarry?

[ihrig]

I can see better in Ensenada, that is where I spend weekends, and it is a two hour drive away.

[imported_Spissgatter W-9]

It is frustrating. Sometimes I think participants in the formum are more interested in posting thier own glib comments, officious criticisms,or opinions than anything else. With regard to the separated plank, pulling back against the frame is a challenge. I suppose it is safe to assume that the rivets broke or pulled through the plank or frame. First step would be to remove the rivet. If broken, you might be able to pull half from either side. With half removed you could take a punch and drive the other half out. If not, then grind the rivet till the roving (washer) comes off. Then drive out. Do this for both fasteners. With the rivets removed, you have two nice hole in the frame & plank. I'm thinking you could take some threaded bolt and insert into each hole through plank and frame. Backed up with fender (or other large diameter) washers you should be able to draw the plank to the frame by tightening the nuts on each threaded bolt. Alternate between bolts. Once drawn flush, you should be able to remove one bolt and replace with a rivet. You can manufacture a rivet out of a length of copper rod. Locating copper roving might be a little tough. Perhaps someone could mail you some? Ping (swell by hammering) one end of the rod, insert the other through a rove, plank, frame,rove and flatten with hammer. If the plank won't stay flush with the frame when one of the threaded bolts is removed, I suppose you could inject some epoxy before drawing tight. Once hardened, should stay that way. Anyway, this is how I would do it. Best of luck.

[John E Hardiman]

Ok; lets look at this from an objective point of view. Yes, fixing a single rivet is straightforward. You get out the old rivet, this includes removing anything in the way so you can come at it with a peening hammer. Clean up the hole to fit the oversized new rivet. Then screw the ringbolts into the plank below and as high on the sheer plank as you can, put an iron rod through them and drive a wedge to flush the planks then install the rivet with someone bucking from the outside. If more than one rivet is to be replaced, it might be possible to use long machine screws with fender washers to draw the plank up. Depends on the access from the back. Jamestown Distributors is one source for the copper rivets and roves you will need.

But you have already posted that you have had problems with the transom planks, know that the bronze fastenings are going, and put in a sister frame along with some other work. You haven't stated how the the damage to the cap rail and rub strake occured, where it is or how long it is. You said "destroyed"; as in scraped off by lying against a stone quay, or by being shattered by impact? Also, where and how long and how much is the the displaced section of plank? You mentioned "seperated from the ribs" but how many? Was the hull stove in but sprung back? Any spaling/compression failures on the belly of the planks? Are the failed rivets pulled through plank or frame, or failed by tension, or sheared at the interface, and are they also being eaten by corrosion? Are the effected frames sound, or are they fractured. Have you removed the ceiling in way of the damage and checked? Have you inspected the knees in the area? Has the deck/hull joint been reworked also?

And then the harder question. Are you fixing it to: a) sell it, b) sail it till the bottom falls out, or c) return it to original?

If it was a steel structure, I wouldn't hesitate to do my own inspection. I've inspected 'glass and wood before (not professionally) when I was buying my last boat but I needed to be real careful as I didn't know everything and I learned a lot by watching someone who did.

I can guess you're kind of pissed that your boat got messed up, and and I also guess that most likely you didn't get much satisfaction down in manana land. I believe that there are people on this forum that can help you. You may already have done so, but check with the sailing crowd down there and in SOCAL/NORCAL. Give Latitude 38 (http://www.latitude38.com) or one of the other sailing orgnizations that operate in baja a call and they may be able to hook you up with someone down there to do the work that the sailing community has dealt with and trusts.

[Dave Fleming]

Ayup Geo, I be one of the most GLIBEST fellas on the face of this earth. :rolleyes:

Original poster keeps his boat in Baja Naval down in Ensedada. No big deal but the problem is he can't seem to find satisfaction for his dilemma down there! Ya folla?
The trip up from E to SD is not that bad or difficult, from my limited experience.
What I do see is someone who is reluctant to seek help in the most logical area, north of the border.
Never said it was gonna solve his problem, never said he was gonna get away without paying for the work, never said he was gonna find nirvana in SD.
Just said, in my bumbling way, that he might be well advised to seek help someplace else.
***Now it comes out his boat does not comply to all the rule and regs ( too many IMOOP) in California.
And that seems to me to be the crux of the whole thing. He faces penalties for the condition of the vessel and so he should if bye keeping the boat down there in Ensendada he has taken advantage of the difference in rule/attitudes between two countries.
Nothing wrong with that but....ya reap what ya sow, or something like that. Am I making sense here?

[ihrig]

Thank you John and Geo for answers to my questions! You guys are great.

As for John's questions, I wasn't around when the boat was damaged. I was helping my brother who was injured very badly after being hit by a car. The marina fixed the cap rail and rub rail. I noticed the plank problem when I went down to varnish the hull. The story was that the rub rail and cap rail were damaged as a result of swells and rafting. I won't know if the rivets are failed until I take it appart. So far I haven't encountered any bad rivets on the boat yet. I would say that the lower portion of the plank is separated visibly from about six ribs. There is some splitting in the top portion of the plank, but this may be from screwing the cap rail into it. This can be epoxied a lot easier than making another teak plank. The ribs are not fractured. The deck was reworked in the area, and I haven't removed the work yet. I wanted to come back and get the teak, and bench saw for the rail first.

I am fixing it so that I can be happy with it, that it is done right, and seaworthy. It doesn't have to be original condition. I want to have the option to sail South should a layoff impact me. I want to continue to take my friends sailing and for everyone to feel safe. I want to do the job sensibly so I can sail rather than spend an eternity on the project.

Actually I am pissed my twin brother got messed up, he almost lost his leg. Damage to my boat is really minor! I was actually thankful something so minor would happen to me.

I am sure there are people at Baja Naval who can help me and do the job right, but I would like to know how to do it, because it is my boat and we may not always be where we can find help. I am fine hiring them, but I am sure you can appreciate, that some suppervision might be necessary. It would be nice for me to have some knowledge. So thank you so much for sharing yours Geo and John!

[ihrig]

Dave,

I asked about a plank, not for anyone's approval where I keep my boat. Can't seem to find satisfaction? I noticed the plank saturday after taping the boot stripe and preparing to varnish the hull (try that in San Diego). I noticed the plank then and decided not to varnish, but that I should return to San Diego last night to get the advice of this forum first, purchase the teak and return with the proper tools and supplies.

I know that where I keep my boat has some extra risks which I accept, but it also offers some extras which I enjoy, such as a better place to sail, more rapid ocean access, more
maintenance friendly environment, much better value in haul outs, etc. Most importantly the excuse "I'm going to be out of the country," when asked to work on weekends.

As for the TBT bottom paint. I use Devoe. We used Devoe copper on the steel boat I grew up on, and were getting 5 years between haul outs. I used to scrub boat bottoms in Hawaii. I know what works and don't like the cold water in California. So I use the Devoe TBT at less than $70 a gallon, and I don't scrub for years; it is that good. The laws are a joke because TBT it is legal on anything above 80ft in the USA. I buy it in the USA.

I also like having my boat in Mexico, because I was born in Mexico, and so was the boat I grew up on, a steel DeFever built in Guaymas.
It gives me a chance to practice Spanish when I am not sailing. These are sentimental reasons. If I own a wood boat, I can be sentimental.

California has reaped what it has sown, to the point that the tuna industry moved out of San Diego. California simply is not a friendly place to own a varnished hulled sailboat which requires maintenance.

I bought a bright teak boat and keep it where it is welcome. I am not going to chew out the marina because I like being there, and the slip rent is half that of San Diego. I haven't had anything stolen off my boat, which has been there 5 years. I even left the boat for a year while I attended medical school for a semester in Guadalajara and toured all over Mexico by car after leaving that corrupt institution. I'm just going to fix my boat and go sailing. I intend that, Juanito will continue to be happy to have me on his dock, among his fishing pongas, and his family, in spite of my cream puff of a boat.

[ihrig]

Dave,

I also like to sail in and out of my slip. (Gave the 500 pound Volvo MD7 engine to a friend.) If I did that in San Diego people would throw fits!

The boat now sails well in light wind, and I don't get greasy waiting for wind.

[Dave Fleming]

Enjoy YOUR boat, be happy and be well.
PAX...

[Dave Hadfield]

Geo's method sounds good to me. Also, as you draw the plank in you'll find out for sure if anything else has been loosened/shifted.

You say the tops of the frames and the sheer-plank are unbroken. I certainly hope you're right, but even they can be sistered.

What kind of varnish do you like, to keep a teak boat bright in the Mexican sun? Did you epoxy first, as a base for the varnish? You're running a test there most would find very interesting.

Good Luck.

[Chris Coose]

ihrig,
I'd be interested to know how much the shear plank has moved. I'm guessing that it isn't too much and if that is so, Geo's approach would be the one I'd take.
I have a copper rivited Cheoy Lee catboat. Over the years I have sanded into a couple of washers and watched the plank to see if they've moved but nothing has changed. This spring I noticed a plank in the middle of the boat had sprung out just a hair. I kind of attribute that movement as old age and the way that these planks are fit I don't loose any sleep over these micro changes.
Victoria smuck a ledge many years ago and a couple of planks below water line at the knuckle moved quite a bit. They don't leak and I haven't touched them. They have proved that they ain't broke, therefore I don't have to fix them.

Hauling old teak back into place would seem to require a bit of velvet sledge hammering

I'm guessing that, for whatever reason, you got a bit of a sprung plank and barring any other damage, that plank would be happy to be eased back into position and it would be Geo's method I'd use. I may even consider some screws and bungs as replacements for the rivets. But that would depend on the thickness of the plank and how far the plank is out of place.

Good luck and I hope your brother is on the mend.

I'm surprised B. Cleek (another teak warrior) hasn't joined this one.

[Alan D. Hyde]

ihrig, this post is totally unrelated to your question (which I think has already been pretty well covered), but is offered just in case it's useful to you.

IF you desire to attend medical school outside of the U.S., then there are some good choices near some excellent sailing grounds.

There are essentially four medical schools in Ireland, through the Irish Universities Medical Consortioum (iumc). They have a website at

www.weg.com.tw/Irish/iumc/ (http://www.weg.com.tw/Irish/iumc/)

I can imagine some of the multitude of problems that attending (say) Cork and sailing out of Crosshaven might pose; however, my impression from your post is that you may not easily be daunted by such things.

So if, by l o n g chance, this idea makes sense, have at it. In any case, good luck to you.

Alan

[ 08-26-2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[ihrig]

Alan, that is a great idea. I wish I knew about it six years ago. I applied for Cork last year but didn't get in. I'm now 33, so I would be 41 before getting back on my feet financially. So I think it is best for me to throw in the towel. I make way more as an engineer than a resident. Right now I am wanted as an engineer and unwanted as a medical student.

My interest in Medicine has been primarily migraine headache research. I think I could probably do more good by publishing in a year or so than spending the next 8 to ten years going broke trying to get in and out of school. I never really wanted to practice medicine, just wanted to make the discovery. I've got something and as time goes by, going nowhere, I am more willing to let it go. If it is valuable, it will take off.

I think the personal sacrifice of medicine is too great. I'm probably better off finding a wife and settling down.

[ihrig]

Chris, the pank has sheared about 1/4 inch. The rest of the boat is really smooth, even below the waterline.

I think the plank was torqued by the carpenter screwing in the rub rail. It just seems so strange that the plank would do that under relaxed conditions. My guess is this is one of the first planks laid and wasn't really tweaked when it went on 44 years ago. I think it has been forced into its present position.

[ihrig]

Dave H

I have usually used ZSPAR Flagship varnish. The hull I usually strip all the varnish off every two to three years, and varnish once a year. I use varnish because it is easier to strip off than varithane.

Starting from bare wood every few years has seemed sensible because the varnish gets damaged from moisture behind it, physical working of the planks, and physical contact with docks and the like. A harder finish would suffer the same fate, so easier stripping varnish seems sensible to me. A new coat every six months seems sensible, but I don't usually get one on the hull that often.

To strip I use Jasco Epoxy and Varnish Remover because it doesn't discolor or have to be washed off the wood. I use a sheetmetal scraper (3 pesos) for removing the gunk. Any sanding of the bare wood I do by hand, but I don't sand it much.

Last haul out over a year ago I put on four coats of $25/galon Mexican marine varnish. I tend to be very heavy handed and lay it on thick. I may get a few extra months due to cure time. On the hull I roll it on with a foam roller and tip it with a good varnish brush. Then I put on a coat of ZSPAR Flagship and it puckered. Then I quit. It must have been the nasty xyline in the ZSPAR.

A year later the shady side of the hull is fine, on the sunny side, there is cracking flaking at the seams of the planks right under the broken cap and rub rail, where the hull was slamed by the fender. The hull gets some shade from the floating dock. The cockpit and cabin are mostly covered by a tarp. The cap rails usually go first since I usually don't have more than to coats of varnish on them. Than God for teak!

The mast got 8 coats of varnish 3 years ago and hasn't started cracking, and has some very slight crazing. On the top of the spreaders I put on the gooey varnish dregs.

I have found that diesel wooks really good for cleaning brushes. It doesn't seem to leave any of the bristles stuck to the others from varnish residue like paint thiner does.

[Gary E]

After reading some most of what was said here, I really saw no answer to your question....

<< My question is, how do I pull in fasten the wayward plank?>>

Since I think this is going to be a doityourself job, I would start with removing as much interior of the boat as I could in the area of the sprung plank...

Now fit in as IF it was sposed to be there a strong 2x4...2x6...4x4 ..what ever looks to be strong and able to supply some strength bridging the framing, ribs, or what ever supplies strength to for the plank....tack it in place..

Now drill as many holes (you chose the size, but 1/2 inch seems a place to start) through this beam and thru the sprung outa position plank...

Make another beam, this one fits the shape of what the outside plank is supposed to look like....drill holes it is same place as the first set in the boat....

Install 1/2 in threadded rod thru all this and using plenty of washers to spread the load...START CRANKING IT BACK TO FROM WHERE IT CAME....

Install some regular fasteners, remove this squeeze play rig and plug the holes....Paint it or whatever...

Did you say your an enginneer?....lectrical or puuter I spose....a mechanical inginneer woulda had this job done allready....

G

[Concordia..41]

Take care of your brother first and then worry about the boat!

FORCE:
You can not draw in a plank with a revit or a wood screw. When planking a boat you force the plank to the frame with a clamp and then fasten it. To pull the plank in use a machine screw. Cut the machine screw off two threads past the nut and ping it over, Go sailing.
I liked Ensendada, do not know what it is like now as I was there in 1964. Did not like SD, do not care what it is like now.
I hope that your brother recovers with no impairment. I know that it is a stressing time for you with both things going on, but your statement - “Sometimes I think participants in the forum are more interested in posting their own glib comments, officious criticisms, or opinions than anything else.” – will not help your position. There are a lot of people on this forum who will do research and try to find the answer to your questions before replying. There is a very valuable supply of “” just know how to do it”” on the forum. It is up to you to decide what you want to follow.
No one likes a surveyor, the brokers call them a deal killer, the owner does not want anyone to know what is wrong with the vessel and the buyer does not want to pay for his services. So why does anyone use a surveyor? ( This should start a new thread. ) PS - DO NOT P--- the people on the forum off, they will eat your lunch.

Dave
Sun over the foreyard.