Morality of mahogany

[kenjamin]

Is the use of mahogany in boatbuilding,

a) a vital part of the economy of third world countries?

b) the rape of third world countries' natural resources?

c) some combination of "a" and "b" and impossible to sort out?

Are most types of mahogany renewable resources?

If one wanted to build "green" (planet earth friendly) should they avoid mahogany?

Thanks in advance for any comments to this thread.

[LightningJack]

IMHO: If 'green' is your goal, it's probably best to avoid mahogany. I don't think it's vital to the economy of the countries that produce it, I think it can be (and most of the time is) very bad for the environment and the citezens of the 3rd world countries that produce it. However, if done right I also think that it CAN BE harvested in neutral (if not positive) ways, for the environment and those same citizens. I've read a couple of things in WoodenBoat and elsewhere about the work done by Brad Ives, who's been working with tropical hardwood producers, mostly in suriname, to certify methods that ensure renewabitlity of the hardwoods. It's an interesting question, and like most morality questions, there are a lot of very strong opinions, but the only one you can or should listen to is the informed one that you develop for yourself.
good luck.
-J

[Billy Bones]

Originally posted by kenjamin:


Are most types of mahogany renewable resources?

Hmmm. I soothe my conscience by making sure that I plant more trees than I cut down, or cause to be cut down.

Where mahogany grows, it grows like a weed. Trees reach maturity in 30 yrs given enough water and seldom live past 80. Spanish cedar grows even faster.

http://www.rkstarr.com/mahogseedlings.JPG
I just this minute took this picture of our current crop of swietenia mahagoni seedlings. We had middling success starting the seeds until we learned how to scarify them properly and now we get better than 60% or so.

There isn't a moral component to the market: eventually price and availibility will balance at a point which benefits both grower and consumer, barring artificial interference by outsiders. Where ones conscience enters the equation is in the decision what to build with. I moved to an area rich with mahogany so I could use it and plant it back. I've always been leery of the global marketplace which allows someone in the great plains of the US to build a boat out of woods from indonesia, or someone in Australia to build out of white oak. Use what you grow, says I, to the extent you can, anyway. In the interest of full disclosure I should say that I order doug fir for my (little bitty) spars.

[Ken Hutchins]

Any wood is a renewable resource, cutting of mature trees enables sunlight and other nutrients to reach the lower levels in the forest which provides for the growth of young trees. If you want to do something for the environment strive to outlaw plastic boats. Plastics are derived from oil which is not renewable in our lifetime. The other option for protecting the environment is put controls on human population growth which is a far greater threat to the environment.

[Garrett Lowell]

I guess those wouldn't make it here in Virginia? Or would they be very different? I have planted Giant Sequoia with great success, only the UVA arborist told me they will be giant only in name.

[Chris Ostlind]

Ken,

Any wood is renewable... IF... you renew it. I realize that most of us are not in the position to renew whole tracts of Okuome, or teak, etc., but we can madate the supplier from whome we buy to insist on the supply in this fashion. He, in turn, can insist that his shipper does the same.

Theoretically, if all the players take their turn, the process will repeat endlessly. Unfortunately, tropical forests are being depleted faster than they are being propogated and therein lies the breakdown of the cycle.

Boatbuilders have such a small play in the larger consumption of tropical wood species, than do the rest of the demands, that we become almost a non-issue. We can mobilize the political potential for a larger argument, though, without the personalization of our interests.

The protection and renewability of the resource is more important than our singular interest.

What about Bamboo?

Chris

[kenjamin]

Thanks for the information guys. I have been lusting after some mahogany I found at a small local yard here in Tallahasse. It is very dry and straight and would be great for the bottom of the Beachcomber-Alpha dory that I want to build. It is 3/4" thick and heavy and looks to be invincible. I'm also considering 5/4 fir of which they also have a nice supply. I think the heaviness in the floor of a dory is a good thing. Apart from the moral issue, I'm leaning towards the fir for the bottom because I will probably cover the outside of the bottom with 1/4" marine fir and I suspect that fir will glue to fir better than mahogany and might be a little less expensive also. I then plan to glass the bottom and then protect it with replaceable oak strips which has worked well for me in the past.

I still may be tempted to use a little of the mahogany in some key areas where there will be water and wear taking place like the daggerboard cartridge I'm designing. I can't think of any other structural wood that could do as well there. Southern cypress wears and weathers well but splits a little too easily.

[ 06-06-2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: kenjamin ]

[Tristan]

Make sure it is "Honduras" mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) or "West Indian" mahogany (Swietenia mahogani). Not all mahoganys are mahogany and not all wear as well as mahoganys of the West INdies.

[Ken Hutchins]

Chris
Any wood is renewable... IF... you renew it IF is simply not true, most hardwood trees and some softwoods will sprout many new stems from a cut off stump, these new stems will support wildlife, etc when young, then grow bigger and supply nutrients back into the soil from leaves and wood pulp as the weaker stems die off. It is common for several marketable stems to grow mature out af a single stump. These sprouts from stumps grow much faster that a tree from seed because it already has a big root system. Some of the softwoods only need sunlight to regenerate on their own, there are millions of seeds in the ground waiting to sprout, to do so they need sunlight, the sunlight they get from cutting out the mature trees. Some trees NEED fire to regenerate, fire opens the seed pods and thins out the mature trees again allowing the sunlight to get down to ground level. The advantage of re-forestation is to plant different species or a faster growing strain of the same species than what is currently growing in the area. If you don't believe trees won't grow with out being planted just don't mow the lawn around your house and watch what grows, it a few years it won't be grass anymore it will be trees.

[Bob Smalser]

Dollars to donuts most of the H. Mahog you are buying these says is plantation-grown, replanted on 30-60 year cycles.

There are other woods I'd have some concern about...but not H. Mahog.

[kenjamin]

Bob, just curious, what woods concern you?

[L.W. Baxter]

I think it is immoral to use Honduran Mahogany for anything other than boat building.

[Elcoholic]

Personally, I think Honduran mahogany should ALWAYS be used for boatbuilding. That's what it's FOR! There's nothing that looks as good, especially when rubbed with oil rendered from spotted owls!

[Ken Hutchins]

ROFLMAO :D :D :D :D

[RiverRat]

This is a BS thread and should be in the bilge. There is absolutely NO transffer of knowledge of boat building and/or repair.

[BrianY]

FYI - Friends of the Earth published a listing of various woods and their status. The table includes

Common and scientific name*
Country of origin
Common uses
Whether it is threatened with extinction (see key below)
Whether reclaimed timber of that tree species is available
How much it is used in the UK (not much use to US builders, I know...)

The list is at http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/biodiversity/resource/good_wood_guide/wood_timber_types_h_to_n.html#I

[Robert McNitt]

Is this posted in the right section?

[Billy Bones]

Originally posted by Robert McNitt:
Is this posted in the right section?Of course it is, although the use of the word 'morality' in the title is a bit misleading.

[ 06-07-2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Billy Bones ]

[David W Pratt]

I think that boat lumber is, today, such a small part of the harvest that it is inconsequential. The book about Gannon and Benjamin (Wooden Boats) has an interesting digression on a guy who imports tropical hardwoods in an eco/cultural respectful way.

[George.]

First of all, harvesting of tropical forest hardwoods is completely different from harvesting of temperate forest trees.

Most mahogany grows in the so-called "mahogany belt" across Southern Amazonia, from eastern Brazil through Bolivia and Peru. It is by far the most valuable species in this belt, and most of it is harvested beyond the frontier - in other words, deep in the forest, ahead of roads, settlements, and the law - these come later. By the time an area of forest has been developed enough to have the trappings of the civilizes state, the mahogany is long gone, harvested without permits, management, reforestation, or anything of the sort.

Like all rainforest trees, mahogany grows widely dispersed - again, completely different from a temperate forest. A logging outfit will open up to three km of track through virgin forest in order to get out a single mahogany log, because it is so valuable. Once the track is open, though, it becomes worthwhile to get other trees out, so further logging is done, again deep in virgin forest with no sort of sustainability at all.

Once the logging companies are done, the thinned-out forest is crisscrossed with tracks and full of dry branches and fallen trees - a big hardwood tree will typically bring down up to a half dozen "worthless" species as it falls, since the lot is entangled with vines. Perfect for burning, while intact rainforest will not burn.

So ranchers move in, set the forest on fire (or rather, arrange for it to be done, so they can't be blamed), plant some grass and move in with cattle, and request title from the government, as they have "improved" a wasteland. They also demand roads, electricity, etc, - all the things that will make their new lands more valuable. Towns spring up. The law arrives. The loggers move deeper into the forest, and the cycle begins again.

This, in essence, is the process by which the Amazon is (not so) slowly being destroyed. The cycle is essencially financed by mahogany. That is why 90% of the deforestation in the Amazon happens within the mahogany belt, while the northern Amazon, where no mahogany grows, is practically intact. And that is why you might want to think twice before buying any mahogany. It has nothing to do with whether the mahogany itself is endangered or being replanted. It is one of the main motors for the irreversible destruction of an entire ecosystem.

[kc8pql]

Thanks for the reality check George.

[Bob Smalser]

Lotsa abuses...but also lotsa plantations.

If you are concerned about insuring your wood comes from sustained forests, then by all means buy from a certified retailer:

http://www.edensaw.com/f_fscproducts.htm

http://www.nnrg.org/ncf/links.htm