Lumber Yard Spruce

[Tom Hoffman]

When going to the Lumber Yard, How can I tell the difference between Fir, Hemlock and Spruce. I would like to get some Spruce for making long parts of my boat. Also for some oars that I want to make.

What is destintive about spruce that I can look for?

Tom.....

[CK 17]

The Fir that I buy seems to have a redish/orange tint to it. It's also heavier than pine. Sorry, can't help you with hemlock.

Joe Schena

[Bob Cleek]

Fir, hemlock and spruce are often sold as "white wood," particularly in areas where they do not grow. This isn't a scam by the lumber companies. These woods are interchangeable for use as studs and construction lumber. There are, however, major differences in the three, and in various types of fir and spruce. Douglas fir, for instance, isn't even a real fir. Sitka spruce (which is preferred for light spars) is a very different wood from the other spruces. Among different woods it is sometimes easy to tell the differences by sight, either with experience or with a book in your hand. However, in other instances, you almost have to have a microscope and a degree in dendronology to identify species from the wood alone. Your best bet is to deal with either the sawyer directly, who will know what he's cutting, unlike the guy at Home Despot who knows only that it came off a truck with a label on it, or to deal with a specialty lumber yard which caters to people who have particular requirements. These suppliers are around in most every area. They will be selling wood for furniture making and so on... not house construction lumber.

[Paul Morris]

The pity is that one of our major suppliers here in central Iowa of real doug fir and western red cedar (boat woods in general) have been bought a window mfgr. and are not selling retail to anyone. You have to have an "account" to buy anything and that requires an annual $$volume of about $10,000. It really frosts me because the wood is right on the other side of that wall, but my money won't buy it. :( :mad:

~~ Paul ~~

[Bruce Hooke]

Regarding Bob's comment, my experience has been that if you just want good old eastern spruce (not that fancy Sitka stuff) your only choice is often to go direct to a sawmill that knows what it is cutting. Eastern spruce is not really of interest to the typical customers of hardwood and specialty lumber suppliers so for the most part they do not seem to carry it, but there are exceptions.

If someone does come up with an easy way to pick the eastern spruce out of a pile of SPF I would be very interested in hearing about it.

[Bruce Hooke]

BTW -- I assume that by "fir" you mean eastern (balsam) fir, not douglas fir. Douglas fir is normally sold as such and so it is easy to identify! Also, it seems like it is USUALLY redder than spruce. What I usually run into at lumber yards is SPF (Spruce-Pine-Fir), and I have yet to find a good way to figure out what a given board actually is.

It seems to me that hemlock is usually redder than spruce too, but I could be wrong on that. I have not run into that much hemlock that I knew was hemlock.

It is worth remembering that for small boats it probably does not matter that much whether you use spruce, pine or fir for most parts. Finding a piece with nice straight grain and closely spaced growth rings probably matters much more than the species.

Also, I'd bet that most of the SPF found in lumber yards is in fact spruce because fir is less common than spruce in our forests and pine is more likely to be used for trim grade stock -- but that is pure speculation on my part.

[HarryH]

In dimension lumber (2x4 and greater) the lumber yards here do stock SPF as noted by others, and it is unlikely it would be easy to tell the difference between species. However, I have found that stock termed "ledger boards" or "spring board stock" is indeed spruce. It is typically found rough sawn, a full 1" thick, stocked in 6" and 8" boards. It is much lighter than other similar stock (unless it is water soaked), is not Kiln Dried, and can be picked over to get a few clear boards. I have used it in instances where strength/light weight is called for. Rot resistance is poor, so take heed to generate tight joints and keep them dry.

Eastern White Pine at local yards is planed for use as house trim and such, and is stored under cover. It is usually KD.

Do not know what sizes are needed, but straight grained fir in nominal 1x4 can be found in the lumber yard too, typically used for decking. Some yards have fir posts 4x4 and greater, that can be picked over. Ask the yard help.

Mind you this is not the same stuff you can find working with a sawyer, etc., but depending on your needs, might work for you..

_HarryH

[imported_Dutch]

ive made many a mast for small boats by laminating up lumber yard and big box white wood. find the whitest clarest pieces you can find. if you keep the end product well varnished or painted and bed your fittings and etc, you will be fine. no need to pay exhorbitant prices for somethin ya dont need

[Dan Lindberg]

I've asked this question of the Forest/Lumber lab folks in Wis, and they claimed that they/he didn't know how to tell fir from spruce either.

Usually I "think" I can tell the pine from the fir/spruce, it seems to have a larger grain and just looks different, but I can't tell fir/spruce.

Here, MPLS, hemlock is usually labled as such, as Doug Fir used to be, hard to find now days.

Also, a couple hints when looking for good wood. Look in the x6 or larger sizes, the x4 is junk. Also, look for pieces with the bark still on, they usually have the nicest grain and fewest knots. Remember the bundle is #2 or better, (never better anymore) and there is either knots of bark on the pieces to have it graded #2.

Dan

[Ellis Rowe]

If you can get certified staging planks in your area they are very good quality and usually Eastern Spruce.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Dan Lindberg:
I've asked this question of the Forest/Lumber lab folks in Wis, and they claimed that they/he didn't know how to tell fir from spruce either.Geezzz...if the Forest Products Lab can't tell the difference between spruce and fir then they rest of us had best just throw in the towel!

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Ellis Rowe:
If you can get certified staging planks in your area they are very good quality and usually Eastern Spruce.I looked at the pile of spruce staging planks at my local commercial lumberyard and the stuff was sadly very knotty. However, they have a sign in the office saying that they no longer sell spruce staging planks, but instead have rough spruce 2x12's. I took this to mean that the material had not changed but that they did not want the liability of selling something identified as staging planks. However, it could be that the material also changed...

[Three Cedars]

Here is my take on lumber marked S-P-F available at my local lumberyard in BC

Spruce whether Sitka or one of the Interior varieties ( White, Engleman , Black ) is consistently very white in color , it is the whitest of all the lumberyard wood and it doesn't take much practice to be able to identify it with a pocketknife ,just slice off a piece of weathered board and the fresh-cut will look very white. I have found that sitka spruce is not any better than any of the other spruces strengthwise. Sitka is available in longer clearer lengths but that is the only advantage to it and you pay through the nose unless you get lucky at a small local mill.

Lodgepole pine has a distinctive resinous odor with a noticeable division between softwood and heartwood , sometimes the heartwood has a bluish grey cast the sapwood a bit yellow when aged . It is heavier than spruce. It is often finer grained than the other woods mentioned.

Douglas fir in BC comes in two varieties Coastal which is quite heavy has a very marked division of reddish brown heartwood and sapwood which is quite white when fresh cut but soon darkens upon exposure to the elements, the other variety is Interior Douglas fir, which is noticeably lighter in weight and has more knots and while still pretty strong is a bit weaker than coastal fir. Most coastal fir is second or even third growth and often has a regular coarse grained look . Old growth is much finer grained and more rot resistant , naturally the sapwood is much thinner.

http://www.cwc.ca/products/lumber/visually_graded/species.php

[Dan Lindberg]

Bruce,

I wouldn't want to say nobody there knows but at least the guy who answered my e-mail claimed he didn't know.

Also, while looking for info one day, I found a site by the Oregon State Univ what had an article on ID'ing at least western woods. It's in a PDF format so I can't copy it but go to "eesc.orst.eud" and maybe you can find it. It's called "Identifying Common Northwest Wood Species" by S.A. Leavengood.

It also references several other publications including R.B. Hoadley's "Idendifying Wood: Accurate Results with Simple Tools".

Dan

[Bruce Hooke]

Just for amusement I decided to do a quick comparison of spruce, pine and fir. I used the tables in The Encylopedia of Wood, published by the U.S. Forest Products Lab. The mechanical properties table for "some commercially important woods grown in the United States" list 16 species of pine, 5 species of spruce, and 7 species of fir. I averaged some of the key properties and reached the following conclusions:

1. On average the pines are as strong as the spruces but they are also heavier than the spruces. The exceptions are Eastern White Pine and Sugar Pine, both of which are lighter and weaker than the spruces, however, I have never come across something that appeared to be either of these species in the 2x lumber pile. Given what good White Pine goes for around here I doubt it is ending up as 2x lumber! In any case, both White Pine and Sugar Pine would be easy to distinguish from spruce because of their light weight and smooth texture.

2. On average the firs compare favorably with the spruces in strength and weight but some individual firs (balsam in particular, but also Grand and Subalpine) are notably weaker than spruce. Of the 7 firs listed, 6 are basically western species, and 1 (Balsam) is mostly an eastern and mid-Canada species. So, fir from the eastern forests is not so desirable as a substitute for spruce. Note: Douglas fir is not a true fir and I did not include it in my group of "firs."

3. Sitka spruce is only slightly better than the eastern spruces on strength and matches closely on weight. As Three Cedars noted the big selling point of Sitka is it's long clear lengths. Finding clear eastern spruce is a lot harder. The best eastern spruce is, unfortunately, Black Spruce. It is the same density and strength as Sitka, but it is also notoriously knotty.

Please remember, this was just a quick comparison! Please do your own research before you decide what wood to use for important projects!

[StevenBauer]

I thought the benefit of the Sitka was its higher modulus of elasticity.

Steven

[Ken Hutchins]

Bruce

It seems to me that hemlock is usually redder than spruce too, but I could be wrong on that. I have not run into that much hemlock that I knew was hemlock.
If you get chance someday to visit I can show you lots of Hemlock that I have sawn. Generally it is a slightly darker tan than White Pine when freshly cut dries to yellowish tan. The easiest way to tell Hemlock is get a splinter a splinter of Hemlock starts to hurt really quick something in the wood that really irritates the skin. The other thing with Hemlock is the knots are really hard and do not bleed pitch like pine does.

[ 04-26-2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hutchins ]

[George Roberts]

I just have to say something ---

This is lumberyard material we are talking about.

For all practical purposes you just look for a clear piece of lumber that is not too heavy. On any given day the best piece could be any of the SPFs.

[Tom Hoffman]

Oddly enough, I went to my favorite local lumber yard, and low and behold, they had Spruce, Fir and Pine all seperate and in their own bins. I would not have believed it if I had not seen it for myself.

Problem was when I went thru the spruce piles, there were no good boards to be had.

Oh, well, back to ash or hackberry.....

Tom...

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by StevenBauer:
I thought the benefit of the Sitka was its higher modulus of elasticity.

StevenI would have thought something similar too before I looked it up. However, according to my tables the MOE for the spruces listed are as follows:

Black: 1.53 (million PSI)
Engelmann: 1.30
Red: 1.52
Sitka: 1.57
White: 1.34

The difference between Black, Red and Sitka does not seem to me to be enough to be significant. If I did the math right, the difference between 1.52 and 1.57 would amount to a 3% change in the amount of diflection under a given load. More to the point, I'd guess that the natural variablity within each variety of spruce is much greater than the spread between the best three spruces.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Tom Hoffman:
When going to the Lumber Yard, How can I tell the difference between Fir, Hemlock and Spruce. I would like to get some Spruce for making long parts of my boat. Also for some oars that I want to make.

What is distinctive about spruce that I can look for?

Tom.....I'm afraid you are wasting your time. The only really reliable way to tell them apart is with end grain sections and a scope. I'm guilty of it too, but the rest of the anecdotal board identification recommendations are a 30-70 crap shoot, as there are a lot of variations in individual logs.

So either use the mixed species and keep the wood protected with paint or varnish, or go with a known quantity of a species sold under its own name, like Doug Fir.

Once you know what you have, you can adjust scantling sizes to do what you want. DF is stronger than spruce and you can drop the scantling size and achieve close to the same weight and strength.

In Iowa I'd be looking for some local sassafras or ash to make oars out of....and in their absence would probably use Doug Fir for both oars and spars.

[N. Scheuer]

What I'd like to know is what the SPF we commonly get around here in N Illinois is. It is fairly white, sorta "creamy" colored, very close grain, doesn't smell "good" when cut (like W Pine does), splits easily, is junk to carve using a very sharp knife, and is "harder " than NW Pine.

Anyone?

Moby Nick

[ssor]

Originally posted by N. Scheuer:
What I'd like to know is what the SPF we commonly get around here in N Illinois is. It is fairly white, sorta "creamy" colored, very close grain, doesn't smell "good" when cut (like W Pine does), splits easily, is junk to carve using a very sharp knife, and is "harder " than NW Pine.

Anyone?

Moby NickSPF refers to "spruce- pine- fir" It is utility lumber. Sometimes in 2x6-8-10 you can find clear or nearly clear stock. It will rot in a pile, out of doors, in one or two seasons but will last for years if kept off the ground and allowed to dry. I have sawhorses of SPF that have lived outside for twenty years with no protection. As a fence post or ground stake for tying a newly planted tree it will rot off in a year here in Maryland. It would last a lot longer in the desert. :D

[shoal_draft_fantasies]

the table here
http://www.cwc.ca/products/lumber/visually_graded/physical_properties.php
particularly the "hardness" numbers might help sort out what lumber is what. It won't help with figuring out if you have spruce in an "SPF" pile, but some practice with a ball peen hammer on some known materials one should be able to tell what is what with a little practice by looking at the depth of a dent if your "swing" is reasonably consistent.

[Ellis Rowe]

Bruce, I checked my local yard and found the same, full dimension 2x12's posing as staging plank. In the past the same yard carried full dimension 2x12's free of sapwood and knots certified for staging. Of course, they're reason for no longer carrying them is that "everyone" uses aluminum staging. Now if I can just figure out how to cut that birdmouth joint in that chunk of aluminum!!

[Jay Greer]

Each of the mentioned woods have different cell patterns when the end grain is seen through an eye loop. There is a book called "Wood Identificattion" that can be a great help in this area.
However there is also another easy method, providing you are willing to do a bit of self teaching. All woods had distinct odors when freshly cut. Most of the woods we use in boat building can be Identified by smell alone, if you know what you are smelling. Run known woods through your jointer, band saw or table saw, and become acostomed to their characteristic perfume. Then take a block plan to the lumber yard and shave a few curls for smell samples. Beware of wood that has been contaminated with cat piss!