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shamus
03-24-2003, 04:06 PM
Umm Qasr now "militarily secure". US Marines to be relieved and replaced with British troops "more used to urban fighting".-BBC radio

Brits now shelling Basra. Outraged that Iraquis would site artillery there in civilian area, but shell it anyway.-BBC radio

"America is about more than the absence of peace"- George Bush trying not to mention the war.

"We're building a strong coalition in South Asia"-George Bush fantasising.

54% of Brits now support the war, up from 30% last week- amazing what a few casualties will do.

LeeG
03-24-2003, 04:09 PM
Come on 4th infantry.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-24-2003, 04:31 PM
The part that is going to plan is Blair's assumption that the British will tend to support their armed forces once men are being killed.

Thinking back to the Falklands, the first part of the campaign was bloodless - the recovery of South Georgia. Then we sank the Belgrano, killing a lot of Argentinians, and there was a collective feeling of "What have we done, this is terrible?" Next day the Argentinian air force sank the Sheffield, and suddenly everyone wanted to see dead Argentinians.

I suppose that is what always happens.

The part of this that is not going to plan is the conduct of the Iraqis. They don't see our forces as liberators. Like the Russians in WW2, they may not like their brutal dictator, but at least he is their brutal dictator, and not a foreigner.

LeeG
03-24-2003, 04:50 PM
Andrew,,I think the areas of self-deception for the US may be different than the Iraqi populace and their leader,,but the principle still exists.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-24-2003, 04:53 PM
Not quite with you, Lee. Could you expand a bit on that thought? Thanks.

shamus
03-24-2003, 04:55 PM
Yes Andrew, and public support has risen here too. It can't be the political rhetoric, because that hasn't changed except to sound even loopier, therefore it must the football match reporting of the media at its worst.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-24-2003, 05:01 PM
I have to plead guilty to that one. I was strongly opposed to this invasion, but in the end I decided that we must stand by the USA, even in this bad cause, because the alternative, of having our forces standing idly by, would send the worst possible message not only to the USA (that we deserted them in their hour of need) but to terrorists and dictators (who would conclude that we would never act against them).

Having started, our nation must now finish the job properly, and we should give our forces all the help we can.

I hate this.

[ 03-24-2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

LeeG
03-24-2003, 05:08 PM
sorry andrew, talking to myself again.
"The part of this that is not going to plan is the conduct of the Iraqis. They don't see our forces as liberators. Like the Russians in WW2, they may not like their brutal dictator, but at least he is their brutal dictator, and not a foreigner."

A large part of our rhetoric,,gotta have a reason for killing people other than scaring the crap out of the world and our allies that funded Al Queda indirectly,, is that we are liberating the iraqi population. That is a self-deception. Iraq has their own self deceptions for internal propoganda purposes.
Either way,,it works for awhile.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
03-24-2003, 05:22 PM
Donn, two things. First, a severe shortage of cheering crowds, hanging garlands round the necks of our troops, and second the widespread presence of what I think I have to call francs-tireurs - men who are in civilian clothes, but who might have thrown their uniforms away, sniping at our men.

This is highly dangerous - if the Iraqis are deliberately trying to provoke Coalition troops into atrocities, they could not have found a better tactic. Think of the German advance into Belgium in 1914, for a comparable example.

High C
03-24-2003, 05:25 PM
That's it. The Iraqi citizens know that there are Iraqi troops in their midst disguised as regular folks. These town aren't liberated just yet.

Scott Rosen
03-24-2003, 05:27 PM
I think High C has it right. Until the war is over, and Saddam's henchmen are dead or gone, the Iraqis would be very wise to exercise some discretion in their show of support for the invasion.

htom
03-24-2003, 05:35 PM
I'm beginning to think that the worst part of this may be the "white-on-red" killings once the white team (that is, not the blue team, us, or the red team, the opposition, the citizen victims) realize that they are free.

LeeG
03-24-2003, 05:38 PM
That is my question for Basra. Take Baath party out,,, but it's not safe for US soldiers to "administrate",,,,so a lot of low grade civil war and looting go on.